keqwow1 - Posted - 11/22/2017:  14:21:30

I'm sure the easy answer is just more practice but how does one really work on precision and note clarity? I listen to Adam Hurt playing and it is almost as if EVERY SINGLE NOTE is individually wrapped in a warm blanket and served up for your listening pleasure. Not a single poorly struck string. Every note is crisp, clear and the volume is nuanced for each strike. How does one even practice this? I've been playing for several years now and while my repertoire has increased, I can't say the QUALITY of my playing has really improved. I'd like to figure out how best to work on this.

Exile1981 - Posted - 11/22/2017:  14:29:53

I'm also working on better precision, and I'm hoping to achieve it by practicing '' the beast'' youtu.be/bKMzquh7G3I

Tom also got some episodes about tone and deep listening, maybe worth the while to check out.

Good luck on your yourney!

n1wr - Posted - 11/22/2017:  15:01:04

Rick - no doubt we all could benefit from the answer you seek. I think if I were ready to really focus on improving as you say I think the first thing I would do is to get a couple lessons form one of our 'premiere' instructors on here. I would be thinking something like diagnostics. Get him to listen to you, observe you, and tell you where or how you need to improve. Hope this helps - maybe just to open up the conversation.

Beardog - Posted - 11/22/2017:  15:08:39

It isn't more practice, but better practice that is needed, at least for myself. I think that most of us "hobby players" suffer from this. It is hard to slow down and play each note perfectly, and in time, over and over and over, until we almost never make a mistake. Getting it right every once in a while is very different than getting it wrong every once in a while!

banjered - Posted - 11/22/2017:  15:18:56

Slowly. banjered

Brooklynbanjoboy - Posted - 11/22/2017:  15:55:27

Adam is a great player, and a friend of mine – but precision isn’t for everyone. It seems to have become more and more important in recent years, but I learned – and have generally stuck closely to – a formula that places a premium on a loose, lazy right hand movement that takes the precision out of the mix. I’m generally not aiming for the strings, or looking to achieve pinpoint accuracy in delivering this blow. The Clawhammer I learned is more akin to carpet bombing, not precision munitions guided by lasers toward their prey. The arm drops lazily toward the strings, like a wet rag. I know that makes playing some music way out of my reach. When I have tried to fine tune things and achieve an articulacy of noting, I end up just drifting back to the carpet bombing approach. I suppose that means what I give up in strategic capacity, I make up for in tactical level capability. Or something like that. I will say that Sam Vallery’s view – not more practice, but better practice – conveys a critically important point. Now, I’m not saying one method is better than another. Nor am I suggesting that there’s anything that might be described as “method” to my banjo madness. Instead, as Wayne said, I’m just trying to open up the conversation. Play hard, Lew

George Flink - Posted - 11/22/2017:  16:39:08

The more I play in small jams
With good plsyrrs especislly a good fiddler and listening,my playing has improved. Also playing banjo uke for rhythm has helped my rhythm and hearing chord changes which in turn has improved my banjo playing.

chief3 - Posted - 11/22/2017:  17:04:32

When you practice, practice with mindfulness.

jojo25 - Posted - 11/22/2017:  18:13:27

I'm with George... play with your betters...if'n they'll have you

Cyndy - Posted - 11/22/2017:  19:47:18

I suspect a discerning ear plays a significant role when it comes to learning to play cleanly and working on that might be as important as working on technique. I'm pretty sure there are weaknesses in my playing that I could fix, but don't, because I simply don't hear them.

rbfour5 - Posted - 11/22/2017:  22:46:46

Forgive me, a 3- finger player, but I finally took advice that was given to me many years ago, and practice with a metronome. Repetition; playing SLOW; working up speed. I would suspect the same results can be found playing claw hammer style too. My world plays in 2/4 time (oh boy, here we go...) So I start my metronome at 70 bpm; 8- 16th notes per measure; playing simple roll patterns; every 10 minutes increase the bpm by 10.; in (1) hour I am playing the same roll patterns at 120 bpm. Mostly open rolls, throwing in a slide, pull off, etc. just for the fun of it all! Going slow MAKES me concentrate not just playing in time, but listen for clean notes, tone and right hand position. Sounds very basic and simplistic- because it is. Without doing this, my "hobbyist" banjo playing would be at a stand still. If you do the crime (playing the banjo!) you got to do the time.... IMHO

AndyW - Posted - 11/23/2017:  00:00:43

I may only be a beginner, but even I have had to take the following 2 bits of advice onboard.



1. Go Slow.



Going too fast makes it very easy to gloss over mistakes. You know are there but your brain tells you 'carry on', 'most of it is good enough'. Probably this is a great natural survival trait for most things, but not for learning banjo where you can mistakes that can become habit.



It is natural when playing any instrument to speed up. So in order to keep slow I do the following.



2. Use a metronome.



Without the metronome I would play the easy bits fast, slowing down at difficult areas, then speeding up again. With the metronome there is no hiding place. I also found it really helping with my eighth note pull off/hammer on timings.

Edited by - AndyW on 11/23/2017 00:01:40

mbuk06 - Posted - 11/23/2017:  03:29:41

Precision - the ability to cleanly and consistently contact the intended single string or strings - requires an angle of attack into the strings as well as the up-down 'motor' action. I've heard this movement of hand into strings compared to the action of knocking on a door. If the travel of your picking hand is too 'flat' or parallel to the strings (more of a guitarists 'strumming' movement) it is very, very difficult to be consistently accurate.



How you choose to practice and whether you use repetitive patterns or some other method is down to what works best for you. I found it efficient to isolate accuracy practice from tune playing and focus specifically on it. But it is essential to first ensure and then monitor that your r/h technique and contact with the strings is optimised for precision. Essentially it is then a matter of repetition to make the desired effect automatic.



Concentrate on practicing at a tempo that you can comfortably maintain your highest percentage of accuracy. Speed will come on it's own in time. I used to make a game of it: making myself repeat patterns until I could repeat that pattern a given number of times perfectly. Then I would raise that number of repeats until error was the exception rather than the rule. It never does any harm to go back and test yourself on those patterns from time to time even when you feel confident you have developed accuracy.

That is really why there are often threads here on BHO about how to structure our practice. Repetitions are invaluable and (in my opinion) essential but kind've deadly boring on their own for hours on end. Structured practice ensure variety and balance keeping us interested and challenged.

I hope this is helpful.

Edited by - mbuk06 on 11/23/2017 03:44:37

CosmicCharlie24 - Posted - 11/23/2017:  05:44:37

Hey Rick - I'm in a similar boat as your are. I'm OK and can play a fair number of songs and can add to my set list with a little work but I'd really like to improve the quality of my playing. Here are a few things that work for me.
-I try to sing and play. For reasons I'm not entirely clear on the songs that I sing along with tend to be cleaner.
-I try to pactice as if I'm preforming. This prevents me from glossing over mistakes. I also practice/play in semi public places like on my porch or backdeck or in a park. Knowing a neighbor or someone might hear me makes me focus a little more. Or I sometimes record myself playing and post it on Facebook. This too makes me focus more.
-And finally if there is a clunky part of a song I often isolate those measures and work on them nice and slowly, maybe as part of my warm up.
Thanks for starting this thead. I too will welcome any input! Happy Thanksgiving!

JanetB - Posted - 11/23/2017:  23:51:10

One additional tool that has helped me is to record my playing. Adam told me that he records tracks for his CDs more than once, until he is satisfied with the result. When I record I see where my difficulties lie. Sometimes I change the note or strum to get a more satisfying sound, easier to play. Sometimes I just need to practice it a lot more. 

Find a tune you can work on for the purpose of recording. Be patient as you keep trying to get your very best effort recorded.  I’ve done just that here with hundreds of tunes and find the actual exercise of recording very helpful. 

Side-note:  I think I would have improved in my first grade teaching career if I’d been video-taped during lessons. I did have observations and received feedback and suggestions. Recordings, however, are tangible and don’t lie. They can definitely foster improvement. 

keqwow1 - Posted - 11/24/2017:  06:40:47

Well I definitely noticed more issues with my playing than I had thought when I recently recorded myself for the first time to post on Facebook. That is actually what triggered this post. 😏

Fathand - Posted - 11/24/2017:  08:17:18

Practise and listen for the desired result. Have someone else listen for the desired result. Record and listen back.

If you are not hearing what you want try to change technique and repeat.

JanetB - Posted - 11/24/2017:  08:38:42

May I suggest that you Skype with Adam?  He is a remarkable teacher and kind and fine fellow!  Even one lesson would give you feedback and suggestions to last a week or a month or a year. I did. 

Dan Gellert - Posted - 11/24/2017:  08:59:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by JanetB

May I suggest that you Skype with Adam?  He is a remarkable teacher and kind and fine fellow!  Even one lesson would give you feedback and suggestions to last a week or a month or a year. I did. 

---

I'll second that.

Judith511 - Posted - 11/24/2017:  11:29:12

Recording what you are playing sure makes you realize how you are playing....sometimes you or at least I think it sounds good but then when I listen to the recording I can hear where I have made mistakes or slowed down etc. I need to play with the metronome more. :)

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 11/24/2017:  12:17:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjered

Slowly. banjered

---

Exactly right.

Never play faster than you can play without precision. 

Speed up gradually over time, but never faster than you can without maintaining precision.

Matt Allen - Posted - 11/24/2017:  19:32:15

My suggestions:

1) I recommend starting very slow for a few days and just prscticing the basic strum and notes very slowly over and over

2) This sounds weird but I pay attention to the feel and sound of hitting the correct notes and can tell when I find it. Try practicing with your eyes closed

3) I had a 3rd point but forgot by the time I finished typing this lol

Richard Hauser - Posted - 11/24/2017:  19:38:27

Everyone's playing improves to varying degrees. How a person practices is important. In order to improve my precision, I play exercises very slowly and with a metronome. I pay attention to speed but also listen to my tone and volume. This probably sounds like an over simplification, but it is still the foundation for other things we do. If I quit doing common picking patterns using a metronome, my timing does not remain as exact.

When a person plays music though, timing changes, volume changes. etc.. Things like this make what we play sound like music, not typing. But, these things should be intentionally played, not happening by mistake. That is the purpose of slow deliberate practice. Periodic recording of a persons playing for constructive criticism also will help identify problem areas.

Matt Allen - Posted - 11/25/2017:  09:16:55

Also,


If you are having problems with part of a song, practice it over and over until you have it down. Don’t skip over it. I used to do classical piano and that was the key to perfecting every note

monstertone - Posted - 11/25/2017:  11:21:08

There have been volumes written on effective practice methods. Not only pertaining to music, but everything else. Brainjo on BHO has some very interesting thoughts on his blog. The Alexander Method, The Practice of Practice, Gestalt Banjo, to name but a few.

Basically, what it all boils down to is you set a reasonable goal, outline an approach aimed at achieving that goal, and work with a positive attitude towards achieving that goal. And that positive attitude plays a huge part in pulling it off.  You have developed an algorithm to success. You work through what seems like a very difficult task by breaking it up into a series of small tasks. Concentrate on each small task one at a time until you are satisfied that it is no longer the stumbling block it once was. Then move on to the next.  Once you have climbed all the steps, conquered all your inhibitions, & gotten past all the roadblocks, you wonder what all the fuss was about.

One of the problems is, we become lazy, we forget the algorithm, how it was that we got there, and have to start all over trying to figure out how to achieve that same level of success on a new challenge.

John Gribble - Posted - 11/27/2017:  18:07:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by AndyW

I may only be a beginner, but even I have had to take the following 2 bits of advice onboard.



1. Go Slow.



Going too fast makes it very easy to gloss over mistakes. You know are there but your brain tells you 'carry on', 'most of it is good enough'. Probably this is a great natural survival trait for most things, but not for learning banjo where you can mistakes that can become habit.



It is natural when playing any instrument to speed up. So in order to keep slow I do the following.



2. Use a metronome.



Without the metronome I would play the easy bits fast, slowing down at difficult areas, then speeding up again. With the metronome there is no hiding place. I also found it really helping with my eighth note pull off/hammer on timings.

---

Yes.

FretlessFury - Posted - 11/28/2017:  06:38:49

Hey Rick, I think a big part in learning precision is to train your ears to hear more precisely. One of the concepts I teach is that where your ears go, your hands will follow. So if you immerse yourself in players who have the sounds you want, and if you start listening for those characteristics in your own playing, you will in effect be prioritizing precision in your own sound.

Practically speaking, playing slowly is hugely important for developing precision. I find that most people practice way too fast. Adam Hurt is such a great example of this, and as you so rightly point out every note he plays is a musical universe in and of itself. I think that's why his music holds up so well to repeated listening. There's so much to discover.

One big thing to keep in mind is that your underlying rhythm and groove should be the first thing you focus on. It doesn't matter how cleanly you can strike a note, or how good your tone is. The rhythm and groove have to be precise first and foremost. And precise doesn't mean ""rigid"" or ""square"" necessarily (unless that's what you want). You can have lots of swing and still be precise in your groove. I favor metronome work for this, and also playing along with your favorite recordings.

Another thing that can help you on your quest for precision is to strip out brush strokes. In general, I think a lot of players get bogged down in brushy playing. Single notes can really help you hone your patterns.

Finally, record yourself. Record yourself a lot. Audio recording is great, but video is even better. Just realize that recording yourself is not enough...you actually have to sit down and listen to the playback (no matter how difficult it is) and analyze your playing and take the right steps to correct the issues. My Banjo Blitz series is all about developing excellent basic technique and precision. It's free, so check it out: youtube.com/watch?v=ttPgCTXuqz...kEcmL1OQA

Scott Barnbilly56 - Posted - 11/28/2017:  13:57:02

Yes I know what fretless fury said about listening was very important . He called it "deep listening" and helped me zone in on good things and bad . Slow- clean deep listening then faster but really listen for clean even pace and this helped me right away . Instead of just playing over and over hoping it would get better that way .

Adam Harr - Posted - 11/29/2017:  09:42:23

You may find this useful in your quest for precision: clawhammerbanjo.net/adam

Eugene_K - Posted - 11/30/2017:  10:42:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by JanetB

One additional tool that has helped me is to record my playing. Adam told me that he records tracks for his CDs more than once, until he is satisfied with the result. When I record I see where my difficulties lie. Sometimes I change the note or strum to get a more satisfying sound, easier to play. Sometimes I just need to practice it a lot more. 

Find a tune you can work on for the purpose of recording. Be patient as you keep trying to get your very best effort recorded.  I’ve done just that here with hundreds of tunes and find the actual exercise of recording very helpful. 

Side-note:  I think I would have improved in my first grade teaching career if I’d been video-taped during lessons. I did have observations and received feedback and suggestions. Recordings, however, are tangible and don’t lie. They can definitely foster improvement. 

---

I agree with Janet. When I record myself (I use video). it's a lot easier for me to hear what I've played and the problem spots seem obvious. Sometimes when I'm playing I have a remarkable ability to fool myself into thinking it sounds great. The recordings give me the straight goods, unvarnished by my own imagination, and help me improve my attack on a tune tremendously.

OldPappy - Posted - 11/30/2017:  12:20:17

A metronome will help with timing, very important to play on the beat.



That doesn't solve the whole problem though.



To me, each note has a shape to it. There is more to shaping that note than simply striking it on the beat.



I am talking about syncopation, which is sometimes hard for a beginner to catch on to, but it is the difference between playing a tune perfectly in time with the beat but without any life in it, and playing a tune perfectly in time that has people tapping their toes.



Lew Sterns mentioned playing with a looseness, and that is important for getting the "snap" into the music, and controlling the shape of each note.



With Clawhammer, striking the note is only one part of the whole. Adjusting the interval between the note, drone, and brush is where syncopation is used to shape the note.



When I play the right hand comes down striking the note on the beat, and immediately bounces back up sounding the drone so closely after the note as to almost be part of the same sound. The hand comes down again for the brush, and if you are double thumbing, the drone is again immediately sounded when the hand comes back up. Most of the tunes I play are played with double thumbing, not all of them, but most. So, there is the interval between the strike and drone, the interval between that and the hand going down for the brush, and the interval between the brush and drone if double thumbing.



Syncopation is done by adjusting those intervals, especially between the two times the hand comes down. Precision in the form of equally timed intervals here kills syncopation.



Accuracy in striking the notes takes practice, sometimes a lot of practice, but eventually it will come.



Improving note clarity usually involves how the left hand fingers are coming down to the strings. People have different sized hands, but you need to rest the neck in the hand so that the fingers can come down more perpendicular to the board. You want to avoid touching any other string than the one needing to be fretted.



My fingers are not long and thin like some people have, they are short and fat.



I have a wide fretboard on my banjos, and I have to rotate my hand until the neck rests in the crook of my thumb to be able to get my fingers coming down straight enough to keep from muting or fretting the wrong strings.

Edited by - OldPappy on 11/30/2017 12:23:15

Jimbeaux - Posted - 12/01/2017:  10:47:11

If you like Adam's sound, he reveals some secrets to his tone on an Across the Blue Ridge show. It's a raidio show by Paul Brown. Google the name of the show and then look for the episode with Adam Hurt.

I can also recommend the episode of Get Up In the Cool with Adam. It's a podcast by Cameron Dewhitt.

Also consider the fact that Adam has put in well over his 10,000 hours.

Tom Hanway - Posted - 12/02/2017:  05:21:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cyndy

I suspect a discerning ear plays a significant role when it comes to learning to play cleanly and working on that might be as important as working on technique. I'm pretty sure there are weaknesses in my playing that I could fix, but don't, because I simply don't hear them.

---

I like this answer for its honesty and because it reminds us that life can be about finding out "what you don't know that you don't know." 

Music is listening, and that includes listening to oneself.  Being self-monitoring takes decided effort, and it's my experience on both sides of the Atlantic that many traditional musicians in many traditions love to hear themselves play--without really listening for their weaknesses of how they step on what others are playing.  

Play as much as possible, make time to practice, in the morning, in the evening, and every day if possible.  Drill in the hard bits slowly, with or without a metronome--just go slowly.  Don't practice mistakes. Get to the point where you can play a phrase or passage with your eyes closed.  Enjoy listening to yourself and be kind to yourself when you get something accomplished.  Remind yourself that you're pretty okay and that nobody can take your learning away from you. Review old material and make it new again.

Be discerning in what you practice, and pick your own repertoire. Vary what you practice from session to session, but try to learn one or two tunes at a time--not the 'New Five Cents' seven different ways. Learn variations for tunes only after you have mastered a single arrangement of it, which might already have its own versions or variations, depending on the tradition and instrument. Listen to instruments other than what you play for new possibilities, e.g. melodic contours, ornamentation and variation.

This also applies to songwriting--Hazel Dickens told me this: Listen to others, but don't compete with them or be daunted by their accomplishments.  Enjoy your practice time: Compete with yourself, and reward yourself with your favorite tea or non-alcoholic beverage while practicing.  (Today I'm trying to translate Sully's 9-part-tenor banjo version of the 'Mason's Apron' in Celtic fingerstyle.  First, I have to transcribe it, which I enjoy doing, testing out different fingerings by good ol' trial and error.)  Playing banjo can be really tricky business, so enjoy figuring out the many puzzles.  Shrug off critics and doubters. Trust yourself in your own taste and judgment. 

A word to the wise: If you want to remember what you learned, don't get drunk, stoned or even slightly buzzed while you're practicing, unless you're Jerry Garcia. (And it didn't work for him in the end--poor fellow.) Partying and practicing doesn't pay dividends.

Accuracy builds speed. Old jazz cats will tell you this. Review old material and make it new again, did I say that?  Practice precision by practicing mindfully: Make every note count as much as every other note. Seek out the best players and improvisers and play with them as much as possible.  

Beir bua agus beannacht,

Tom

Edited by - Tom Hanway on 12/02/2017 05:33:29

pollywaffle - Posted - 12/02/2017:  16:07:48

My advise is to stop listening to Adam Hurt or at the very least never compare your own playing to his.

BenjoHume - Posted - 12/04/2017:  15:20:22

Practice slowly and speed up as you go.

slc - Posted - 01/03/2018:  14:01:37

I think the most helpful method (for me) was, when playing alone or noodling around, to WANT to be precise. I'd discover a part where my fingers would gloss over or stumble though or feel clumsy, then slow down just that part until I could get the notes precisely, then do it over and over (and over!) until it was possible at speed. Only after a certain level of comfort with the part would I put it back into the tune.

While this is definitely lumped under "practice, practice, practice", I'd say that curiosity and interest were the driving features of that practice.

An aspect of this interest or curiosity: I found myself working out odd and obscure techniques completely unnecessary to any actual tunes. Like - who really does triplets with banjo? But I'd get a bug up my butt to get them to work, and do them over and over until I had them. But then, surprise, surprise, there WAS a place for them in some tunes - Briar Picker Brown comes to mind but I'm sure I stick them in here and there in other tunes without thinking.

One advantage of working out more precise ways to play notes is that there is no wasted effort - every improved technique around clarity and precision will help other parts of my playing.

When I'm helping a learner, I often suggest working on precision. It's not just that it's a preferential sound (for me), but getting better with precision often entails better efficiency with hand movement as well - and figuring out how to play some difficult passage better can result in a better overall hand motion. It also helps with rhythm too - when there is a clearer 'pop' with the melody, the pulse of rhythm becomes more palpable - and in my book that's a good thing.