511nfs - Posted - 06/28/2017:  18:52:18

I've got a friend I'm recording.  She sings and plays guitar, and she needs to be playing her guitar while she sings because it's easier for her that way.  How do I reduce the bleed through of the guitar through the vocal condenser?

xnavyguy - Posted - 06/28/2017:  19:01:06

The guitar, if it's about the same distance from the condenser, will be almost as loud as her voice.  Depending on the condensers pickup pattern, you might want to try pointing it up, away from the guitar, with it level with her chin.  If that doesn't work, you could try a close mic'd dynamic vocal microphone.

What I use for recordings is a headset wireless mic with my guitar plugged into a different channel on my mixer.  That way, I have full control over both inputs.

stelldeergibber - Posted - 06/28/2017:  20:14:38

You've got two choices that I can think of. Either take Jerry's suggestion and run the guitar,with a cord rather than a mike, straight into the board, she can sing if she wants but don't record that vocal. Take two she sings,along with the guitar from take 1 in the headphones, if she "has" to play guitar at that point, take the strings off it. The other way is for her to do what we're doing in a band right now,practice playing without singing, at home first, best with a metronome. Record the guitar with a good condenser mike, then second time around, all she has to do is the singing. The problem with doing what's easiest is that it doesn't always result in the best recording, so it's a matter of priorities.

NINJO - Posted - 06/28/2017:  20:36:45

You can put a baffle below the microphone she's singing into and above the top of her guitar. Put a mic for the guitar below the baffle to record the guitar. I've done this several times and it works great for live recording.

mdthib - Posted - 06/28/2017:  22:37:06

A few approaches for consideration: embrace bleed, which isn't always all bad, just work with it (maybe even record mono); get a pair of ribbon mics and position them to reject the non-target sound source (google it) to greatly minimize bleed; record her playing together, then re-record each part separately (so she lays down a scratch track, then makes a final vocal-only and guitar-only by playing along with the original recording). 

RevSpyder - Posted - 06/29/2017:  06:07:24

What we do is record a rough track with guitar and vocals. Next, record just the guitar on its own track. Then record just the vocals while listening to the guitar or guitar + vocal rough track. Erase/mute the rough track, and you've got a clean separate track for each. Don't know if that'll help this situation, but it works for me and my wife.

recorderguy - Posted - 06/29/2017:  07:30:22

The best approach depends on a variety of factors. #1 being: what the final result needs to be. Are you just trying to get as much seperation as possible? Is this just a scratch track for guide, so that you can overdub a final? Are you trying to capture an organic performance with as much fidelity as possible?
As others have said, tight micing, perhaps with a head set, can help and if the resultant audio quality is acceptable that might be a way to go. Plugging the guitar DI into the board will minimise vocal into that track, and again if it sounds okay then bobs your uncle. From a seperation standpoint an electric guitar (I'm assuming your tracking an acoustic) DI will minimize bleed into both tracks.
If you're trying to capture an organic performance with an acoustic guitar and vocal, understand that you WILL have some bleed and that's okay.
If you really want this to sound like a record (a good one) you're going to need some good mic's. Thare are lots of good mic's to choose from and I won't bother making a recommendation because that would just be a long list of possibilities. IF you're recording in a good acoustic space (live or dead) then I'd look for a pair that have a bi-directional pick-up pattern. I prefer a matching pair (two of the same model) but I suppose it's not absolutely necessary. If the artist is comfortable playing while standing (without moving around too much) I prefer that also. You want to position the mic's so that the null from the guitar mic is pointing to the singers mouth, while the null from the vocal is pointing to the guitar. Try not to get too nutty with the signal processing, better to match the mic to the player than try to fix it with the dials. Of course the back of the mic's are live so the space you're recording in comes into play here (it always does, but a little more in this case). If the space is not too good, try to deaden it and see if you can get by. Lf roll off can help help a bit with a boomy room. If the room can't be improved try more directional mic's and place them to minimize artifacts (experiment)..
Lastly make the artist as comfortable as possible, a great performance is THE most important thing. Hit record and you're off.

Good luck, let us know how it turns out.

Peter

250gibson - Posted - 06/30/2017:  07:50:36

You have to find out why it is easier that way. It is probably psychological. You need to try to convince her that it is best to record guitars and vocals separately, and that the result will be better. Doing this separately allows you to comp the best takes together for the best performance. For example, guitar take 2 may be the best, and vocal take 3 may be best, you can combine them when you mix. If you record vocal and guitar at the same time, you have to keep them the same. If she is having a killer vocal take, but the guitar is out of time, etc. nothing you can do about it other then try again, which may not be able to be duplicated easily. 

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug Knecht

 

I've got a friend I'm recording.  She sings and plays guitar, and she needs to be playing her guitar while she sings because it's easier for her that way.  How do I reduce the bleed through of the guitar through the vocal condenser?

 

 

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loonsailor - Posted - 06/30/2017:  08:52:20

I agree with several other posters who have said that it's far better to track the guitar and vocals separately.  You need to keep them together, so start with a scratch track.  That can either be a first take of guitar and vocals together that will later be discarded or just a click track.  You might even go back and forth - record the guitar, then the vocals to go with the guitar, then you might want to redo the guitar once you've got a great vocal track (a click track would make that a lot easier).

BTW, I've never heard anybody who plays their very best guitar while singing, nor sings their very best while playing guitar.  Just because your friend has never done it that way doesn't mean that she can't.  Indeed, it's really quite easy and fun, much easier than doing a good job of both simultaneously.

Recording is a different skill than live performance.  If you want to do it well, it's best to respect it and embrace it as a different process.  It can take a while, but it's also really fun and satisfying.

J.Albert - Posted - 06/30/2017:  17:05:37

I myself use RevSpyder's approach above.

That is:

1. Do a "scratch track" with the lady both singing and playing.

then

2. Have her listen to the playback while she plays the guitar only "against it".

then

3. Have her sing against either the scratch track or the guitar track (not both, it will sound too cluttered).

4. Mixdown the guitar and vocal tracks, and toss out the scratch track.

This is probably the only way you can eliminate the bleed-through.

It may take a few tries for her to get comfortable with the technique, but once she hears the results, she'll likely come to prefer doing things that way.

rudy - Posted - 07/01/2017:  05:25:49

Doing the scratch track and overdubs to get isolated guitar / vocal is theoretically the best way to do it, but many performers don't feel comfortable doing it that way.  In many cases is removes the luster of live performance, so it's understandable if a singer just wants to capture the best audio they can while playing backing guitar at the same time.

Two ways that will give you the results you want:

Use two microphones, one mic being a figure or eight polar response pattern.  The recording is done  using a technique referred to as mid-side mode and it creates two tracks with very good isolation between the guitar and vocal track.  This similar to what Matt T. referred to earlier, but you don't need two ribbons.  The technique is pretty common since many folks who do home recording already have a LDC with figure of eight response and a second small diaphragm condenser.  The process is too much to cover here, but it's covered extensively many places on the web.

Another technique that's used is to position a large diaphragm mic pointing UP towards the singer (the rear of the mic facing away from the guitar) and a small diaphragm condenser mic having a typical cardiod pattern pointing DOWN towards the guitar (it's pickup pattern arranged to reject the vocal).  Isolation isn't as great as mid-side recording, but is much greater than what you'll get with the usual micing recommendations.

You can find through explanations of both of these techniques if you search the "Recording" section of the Acoustic Guitar Forum.  Obviously, there's a bunch of folks there that specialize in doing just what you are looking for.

Edited by - rudy on 07/01/2017 05:32:22