vrteach - Posted - 04/16/2017:  09:14:45

I spent this morning with my new banjo (Rickard White Laydie Half-Spun) as we become more comfortable together. Here are a couple of recordings: Magpie (a fun G tune) and two D tunes. The first is my idiosyncratic version of Spring Creek Gal and the second is Moses Hoe Your Corn.

Magpie

Spring Creek Gal/Moses Hoe Your Corn

jenorma1 - Posted - 04/16/2017:  12:48:39

Sounds great! This isnt the 12" spunover white ladye thats been Elderly for a while is it?

banjered - Posted - 04/16/2017:  12:54:34

Sounds fabulous! I was wondering how that particular banjo sounded. Now you got me wondering if it sounds that good in person, direct. Humm, 2 AM, knock the piggy bank over the head and..... banjered

mjt0229 - Posted - 04/16/2017:  14:01:33

What do they mean by half-spun? Sounds great by the way!

banjo bill-e - Posted - 04/16/2017:  15:50:10

OK Eric, we want photos!

vrteach - Posted - 04/16/2017:  18:58:24

I'll do some pictures tomorrow. I got it at Spruce  Tree Music in Madison, and it might still be on the site.

banjered - Posted - 04/16/2017:  19:45:14

This it?  sprucetreemusic.com/product/ri...e-laydie/

vrteach - Posted - 04/16/2017:  21:24:37

Yes, that's it.

vrteach - Posted - 04/17/2017:  06:54:09

quote:

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Originally posted by mjt0229

 

What do they mean by half-spun? Sounds great by the way!

 

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I think that half-spun means that the metal cladding goes over both top and bottom of the wood rim, but does not cover the inside of the wood. There is also the term "spunover" or "spun-over," but I don't know what the difference is, if any.

About 8 years ago someone asked the following questions:

After reading Bill Rickard's blog, I began wondering



1) How are spunover rims made?



2) Why are they called "spunover"?



3) How do builders get the wooden pot to fit so snugly inside the metal pot?



4) Is there a noticeable tonal difference between a banjo with a spunover rim and a banjo with a plain wooden rim? If so, how would you describe the tone?

And the response from Mr Rickard was:

1.) First how are spunover rims made? Being a metal guy, I've spent years on the topic of spunover banjo rims and finally come to following conclusion. Very few banjo rims are truly spun rims at all. There were two types of spunover rims built originally and today. The most common construction method has nothing to do with spinning at all. Basically you calculate the circumference of the rim your building + the depth of the rim desired and shear a piece of flat brass to this size. Next you form over the edges of each side over a piece of wire. Another common way to do this is you bead over the edges with a set of beading rollers. You now have a long length of brass approx. 2.5" wide x + or - 38" long with each edge beaded over. Next you roll the length of brass (supporting the beaded edges in the roller dies) into say an 11" dia. circle. Next you silver solder the ends together and re-roll the part into a nice clean 11" rim. So far you've not spun anything but you fool everyone by saying that it's a spunover rim! This is how the majority of lower cost spunover rims were originally built and what appears to be the construction method of choice today.

Next comes what the high end banjo builders did, and this is true metal spinning. If you examine closely many old original spun banjo rims you will find that some have evidence of a metal joint at the neck area, and the higher end rims have no joint what so ever. To build a truly spunover rim you have to start with a solid round disc of brass approx. 16" in diameter x 20 to 22 gauge material. This is placed in a spinning lathe and the side of the rim is first spun down over an expandable mandrel form (11" dia. for an 11" rim). You next trim the outside edge to size and spin in an inside bead using an 11" ring x 3/16" diameter wire to form the lower rim edge, Next you cut out the opposite end while still in the spinning lathe and insert another 3/16" wire ring which ends up being the opposite edge of the rim. Because this was all spun on a expandable mandrel you next reduce the mandrel size until the rim slides off the mandrel. I've probably lost everyone by now as the process is real difficult to explain verbally or in written form. Two excellent You Tube videos explain the spinning process right through the use of cnc spinning machinery. If you watch both of these videos it should all make 100% sense to all. I've also attached a video that shows true manual spinning. The big thing to remember is that the cnc method of spinning is quite new and only realistic if you wanted to build say 10,000 banjo rims! Everything that is spun on a cnc machine was first done on a manual spinning lathe by hand tools. For building banjo rims using a manual spinning lathe is the only way to go in my opinion. Once your set-up it takes approx. 30 minutes to complete a rim. The tooling costs are the biggest concern and usually why the majority of builders don't build a truly spunover rim.

Have a look at these sites and you'll become an expert within 30 minutes, or at least fully understand the complete process. Just keep thinking banjo rims as you watch the videos and don't get side lined by all the cnc crap! I've attached the videos below.



2.) Why are they called spunover? The answer to this is in the videos but as per my above comments, to the best of my knowledge only the best of the original high end banjos really used a truly spunover rim. After that it all became terminology, such as a Fairbanks electric banjo having no electricity etc. Another way to look at it is that the term is really true banjo hype! Can't really say for sure but a truly spun rim does sound different when compared to a beaded and rolled rim. To me I feel that a truly spunover rim is close to being a tone ring in itself if that makes any sense,



3.)To install the wood inside the rim I originally spun the rim over the wooded rim but found that it damaged the edges of the rim during the spinning process + you can't nickel plate the rim after the wood insert is glued in place. The easy way is to roll a single ply insert with a scarf joint. After the spunover rim is nickel plated you just collapse the insert to fit it in the spun rim, and expand it again once it's in place. I normally use a wood panel glue to hold everything tightly together on completion. In the end if you build a fully spunover rim it ends up being extremely strong or stiff in all directions and very suitable for steel strings.



4,) This is a real hard or impossible one to answer in my opinion. A truly spunover rim sound different from a rolled a beaded metal rim and different again than a wooden rim. They all have their own sound and it ends up with the golden question. Do you like the sound? Is it for you? It's like comparing a M. Benz to a BMW, or Audi, or Buick. They all do the job and all have their followers and supporter!



Hopefully this puts some light on the topic. But it's just my perspective and could certainly be challenged. All in all, working with metals and spinning metals is an extremely interesting topic! As they say, "So many things to learn and so little time"



Bill Rickard

This was from a topic archived here: banjohangout.org/archive/172051

banjochuck - Posted - 04/17/2017:  09:42:34

Sounds great, Eric, and you obviously know your way around a banjo. FYI, I have a 12-inch "spunover" brass Rickard with a Dobson tone ring, and it has some similarity in tone, but, as we know, they're all different. It just so happens I recently printed out a tab for Magpie, and am trying to get it under the fingers. Where did you get your version from?

vrteach - Posted - 04/17/2017:  10:45:10

I originally learned Magpie from Miles Krassen's book of Appalachian Banjo, but that was forty years ago. I know that I've drifted since then.

Don Huber - Posted - 04/18/2017:  23:53:50

That's the nicest version of Magpie I've heard.

Tobus - Posted - 04/19/2017:  05:49:59

That's a wonderful sounding banjo, played by a very talented player.  I like everything about those sound clips!  Erich, your sound clips have been a great source for me in picking up new tunes, and I have a feeling I just discovered 3 more tunes to study!

Don Borchelt - Posted - 04/19/2017:  06:01:21

Fine, fine picking, Erich.  You can tell just how compelling the recording is by how still the silence feels to you when it stops.