El Dobro - Posted - 04/15/2017:  10:08:57

If anyone ever takes it apart and there's no stain on the top of the rim, that's usually a giveaway that it's been converted.

arby3 - Posted - 04/15/2017:  18:38:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by southerndrifter

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by 1935tb-11

 

is this the photo you are talking about.... i can't tell in this one.  it looks like a flathead here

dave was telling me that this banjo and an RB-3 that earl ordered came into a hardware store or barber shop

down that way somewhere in late 1934,,, i just wonder if it wasn;t the scruggs/reno 3  ?

 

 

 

terry m

---

No Terry, that's not the photo. The one I'm talking about is just the gentleman by himself. I think the barbershop story is the one about 9584-3 and 9584-5 being ordered on the same day and coming in to the barbershop on the same day. The RB-3 was sent back to Gibson and 9584-3 replaced it. The barbershop was in Bladenboro, NC. The banjos were shipped by train.

---

9584-3 and 9584-5 were picked up on the same day from Graves Barber Shop in downtown Wadesboro, NC.  The shop was in the basement of the Fox and Lyon building which burned in the early '80s.  The site is now a vacant lot and was recently listed for sale at a bargain price.  9584-5 is still in NC.

Gene K

southerndrifter - Posted - 04/15/2017:  19:00:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by arby3

 

 

---

9584-3 and 9584-5 were picked up on the same day from Graves Barber Shop in downtown Wadesboro, NC.  The shop was in the basement of the Fox and Lyon building which burned in the early '80s.  The site is now a vacant lot and was recently listed for sale at a bargain price.  9584-5 is still in NC.

Gene K

---

Thanks for the corrections Gene! There I go relying on my memory again! And yeah, 9584-5 is definitely still in NC. I'm even fortunate enough to get to play it once in a while! Happy Easter!

TonyW - Posted - 04/15/2017:  19:05:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by TOMCAT



According to YouTube this is it........Is it?

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That is it and that's me playing it. It sounded great.

TOMCAT - Posted - 04/16/2017:  07:24:15

Yeah man that was some good stuff!!

arby3 - Posted - 04/16/2017:  18:23:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by southerndrifter

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by arby3

 

 

---

9584-3 and 9584-5 were picked up on the same day from Graves Barber Shop in downtown Wadesboro, NC.  The shop was in the basement of the Fox and Lyon building which burned in the early '80s.  The site is now a vacant lot and was recently listed for sale at a bargain price.  9584-5 is still in NC.

Gene K

---

Thanks for the corrections Gene! There I go relying on my memory again! And yeah, 9584-5 is definitely still in NC. I'm even fortunate enough to get to play it once in a while! Happy Easter!

---

First time I played it was at Dewey's shop along with you and the late great Al Batten!

jfb - Posted - 04/17/2017:  09:27:46

Here is a good video of it on Utube

youtube.com/watch?v=2LOzBNB43DU

There may be some early photos of it in one of Bob Carlins books ref musicians in NC, not sure but I think I remember seeing it in one of them.

Mike Johnson - Posted - 04/17/2017:  19:45:41

Here is a post from 2008 where I recounted the story of my first encounter with 9584-1 in 1968 on Christmas Eve while on my honeymoon. I think I posted an account of the event more recently in discussion about 9584-1 ,the whereabouts and disposition of which being the main focus,but It may not be archived or I am simply unable to locate it.This account is copied and pasted from an archived thread on D.D.Yokely:

Red,after nearly forty years ,I need all the help I can get remembering.Mr.Yokely was probably in his seventies and had quite a collection of high end tenor and plectrum banjos.He was a colorful man with some interesting expressions.One that became a family byword for us was "as striped as a leopard"(his enthusiastic description of a particularly nice piece of curly maple).on the occasions when his name came up he called Earl Scruggs :"Earl Scrubbs." He was not making any slight or slur on Earl ,that was just the way he pronounced his name.The portion of his house that housed the banjo "ranch" was a building with corrugated metal walls in places.I was getting a little pressure to leave after we had examined and clucked over quite a few Paramounts,Leedys,Epiphones,Gibson ball bearings and raised heads many of which were declared to be 'as striped as a leopard" (a phrase that had begun to elicit a twitch or an eye-roll from my recent bride every time it was invoked)and was shifting to get ready to go when he handed me a slightly rough five string flathead Granada.I did not know enough then to be in any kind of an extra frame of mind over it.I set in to picking on it .I can still hear the sound of that banjo as it rattled those metal walls.It was a monster--sound like that did not emanate from my flathead bowtie 250-or any other banjo I had ever played up to that time.He said that it had belonged to Clay Everhart and he(yokely) had promised to let Dean Clawson have it in exchange for an undetermined number of mastertone copies.I think D.D.said it something like this:'Dean said he'd make me banjos til I said,'stop' if I let him have that banjo.I'm gonna let him have it." And that was that.We left and went on about our business.Not too many years later my flathead chose me and we have lived happily ever after.That was the only visit I made to Mr .Yokely's.What I have related remains in high relief in my memory.Who is the present custodian of that banjo and who can add more about it ?

BanjoLink - Posted - 04/17/2017:  20:42:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike Johnson

 

Here is a post from 2008 where I recounted the story of my first encounter with 9584-1 in 1968 on Christmas Eve while on my honeymoon. I think I posted an account of the event more recently in discussion about 9584-1 ,the whereabouts and disposition of which being the main focus,but It may not be archived or I am simply unable to locate it.This account is copied and pasted from an archived thread on D.D.Yokely:



Red,after nearly forty years ,I need all the help I can get remembering.Mr.Yokely was probably in his seventies and had quite a collection of high end tenor and plectrum banjos.He was a colorful man with some interesting expressions.One that became a family byword for us was "as striped as a leopard"(his enthusiastic description of a particularly nice piece of curly maple).on the occasions when his name came up he called Earl Scruggs :"Earl Scrubbs." He was not making any slight or slur on Earl ,that was just the way he pronounced his name.The portion of his house that housed the banjo "ranch" was a building with corrugated metal walls in places.I was getting a little pressure to leave after we had examined and clucked over quite a few Paramounts,Leedys,Epiphones,Gibson ball bearings and raised heads many of which were declared to be 'as striped as a leopard" (a phrase that had begun to elicit a twitch or an eye-roll from my recent bride every time it was invoked)and was shifting to get ready to go when he handed me a slightly rough five string flathead Granada.I did not know enough then to be in any kind of an extra frame of mind over it.I set in to picking on it .I can still hear the sound of that banjo as it rattled those metal walls.It was a monster--sound like that did not emanate from my flathead bowtie 250-or any other banjo I had ever played up to that time.He said that it had belonged to Clay Everhart and he(yokely) had promised to let Dean Clawson have it in exchange for an undetermined number of mastertone copies.I think D.D.said it something like this:'Dean said he'd make me banjos til I said,'stop' if I let him have that banjo.I'm gonna let him have it." And that was that.We left and went on about our business.Not too many years later my flathead chose me and we have lived happily ever after.That was the only visit I made to Mr .Yokely's.What I have related remains in high relief in my memory.Who is the present custodian of that banjo and who can add more about it ?

---

Thanks....great story, MIke!

Robby Boone - Posted - 04/22/2017:  08:02:08

Well, I've been waiting several days for a photo that is iron clad proof that 9584-1 is really an archtop and still haven't seen it. As I am not real bright and don't think as quick as I used to, all this time waiting has also given me time to come up with a question about the elusive photographic proof......should it ever be found.

Here's my question:

IF a photo does exist and can be found, where is the PROOF that it's a picture of 9584-1? I am sure that it will be a black and white photo, so how would anyone be able to tell if it's a Granada or a Style 4? What I'm getting at is that in a old non HD black and white picture of a Hearts and Flowers banjo, that I will be greatly surprised (and leery) that ANYONE could determine the difference. Is 9584-1 the only banjo that the man ever owned or played??

Enquiring minds want to know,

Robby

Oldtwanger - Posted - 04/22/2017:  08:25:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robby Boone

 

Well, I've been waiting several days for a photo that is iron clad proof that 9584-1 is really an archtop and still haven't seen it. As I am not real bright and don't think as quick as I used to, all this time waiting has also given me time to come up with a question about the elusive photographic proof......should it ever be found.

Here's my question:

IF a photo does exist and can be found, where is the PROOF that it's a picture of 9584-1? I am sure that it will be a black and white photo, so how would anyone be able to tell if it's a Granada or a Style 4? What I'm getting at is that in a old non HD black and white picture of a Hearts and Flowers banjo, that I will be greatly surprised (and leery) that ANYONE could determine the difference. Is 9584-1 the only banjo that the man ever owned or played??

Enquiring minds want to know,

Robby

---

Robby, have you ever taken a used old head that had been on a raised head and installed it on a flathead?   Makes the flathead look like a raised head.  I can easily see a broken skin head being replaced in this manner if that was all that was available at the time.  Betcha a photo would look like a raised head.

Robby Boone - Posted - 04/22/2017:  08:44:40

Yep Frank.......I have seen that happen (even done it!) and I will buy that theory......to a point. This is supposed to be an ancient photo of the banjo from the 30's right? Who would or could afford to take a perfectly good head off one banjo and put it on another during such hard times as the 30's? I know it's certainly a possibility but I see it as far fetched during this time period. 

NOT trying to argue with you Frank. I respect you and your knowledge a GREAT amount! You have forgotten more than I will ever know!

Robby

rupickin5 - Posted - 04/22/2017:  10:25:03

To Robby's & Frank's point...it would be difficult (I didn't say impossible...) to make a positive I.D. from an old b/w photo. And, my little story here should demonstrate that you can't always judge a book by it's cover...

When I was either finishing up HS or just started attending SUNY at Buffalo, there was a west-side tavern that featured Country music. It was the Club Utica, on W. Utica. Getting into Bluegrass, my friend & I went there to hear & see Don Reno & the Country Cut-ups in maybe 1967 (I think that's what they went by then?). The band consisted of Don, young Ronnie on mandolin, Mike Seeger (clearly filling in for the 3 or 4 day stint/road-trip) on guitar/bass/clawhammer banjo, &, if memory serves me well...George Shuffler. Anyway, it was great to see them a couple of nights, fondle Don's "Nellie" & take Mike & Ronnie over to Niagara Falls & take the cool "Maid in the Mist" boat ride close to the Falls. Okay, back to Club Utica...they had some rather large promo photos up on the walls through out the place. The coolest was an enormous grainy b/w studio photo of Jimmy Martin w/ Paul Williams & young JD...looked like a late '50's photo or earliest '60's. JD's banjo was clearly an arch-top w/ a hide head...y'all know that look. Years later I heard that the tavern had burned & I wished I had asked & somehow convinced the owner(s) to part w/ that uber-cool large photo! Also, years later I was talking w/ Crowe & mentioned that tavern & studio photo. He remembered playing there...but said, I forget his exact words..., no that was Banger, the head had broke & all he had handy was the old hide-head that came off of an arch-top.  

You can take this w/ a grain of salt, but it just goes to show that a picture might not tell the whole story.

Brian

Edited by - rupickin5 on 04/22/2017 10:26:33

BanjoLink - Posted - 04/22/2017:  10:37:43

Brian....I wouldn't take any of your stories with a grade of slaw .....makes perfect sense to me!

rupickin5 - Posted - 04/22/2017:  10:46:32

John/BanjoLink...can I have some pulled pork w/ that slaw...;-)

BanjoLink - Posted - 04/22/2017:  11:22:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by rupickin5

 

John/BanjoLink...can I have some pulled pork w/ that slaw...;-)

---

Absolutely ......... mustard based BBQ sauce (ala SC style) or vinegar and crushed pepper ((ala Tarheel style)?

southerndrifter - Posted - 04/22/2017:  12:38:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robby Boone

 

Well, I've been waiting several days for a photo that is iron clad proof that 9584-1 is really an archtop and still haven't seen it. As I am not real bright and don't think as quick as I used to, all this time waiting has also given me time to come up with a question about the elusive photographic proof......should it ever be found.

Here's my question:

IF a photo does exist and can be found, where is the PROOF that it's a picture of 9584-1? I am sure that it will be a black and white photo, so how would anyone be able to tell if it's a Granada or a Style 4? What I'm getting at is that in a old non HD black and white picture of a Hearts and Flowers banjo, that I will be greatly surprised (and leery) that ANYONE could determine the difference. Is 9584-1 the only banjo that the man ever owned or played??

Enquiring minds want to know,

Robby

---

Robby et al, I apologize for the delay in producing the photo. I sent an email requesting a copy of the photo and I haven't gotten a response, so I'm waiting too. It was about 5 years ago that I saw the photo but there is no mistaking it........it's an archtop.........not an old AT head on a flathead.......but absolutely an AT. It is a Granada too.........or a RB-4 with a Granada armrest. When the picture is enlarged, it has Granada engraving on the armrest. I don't know who the guy was that was holding it. I'm not sure that my friend knew either.

I promise that if I get my hands on the photo, I'll post it immediately. And I never brought this up to in any way devalue the banjo. In my mind, it is still an original flathead, because Gibson did the conversion during the prewar years. There are many examples of Gibson doing this during that period.

Bob Rodgers - Posted - 04/24/2017:  06:22:48

 I talked to Crowe about this so called flathead Granada. He needs his blood pressure checked every so often.  His BP started out normal, Then elevated quickly.   His first question was,  Is there a picture of the number ( 9584-1 ) as a A T.   Told him I didn,t know.  I preceded to get a history lesson about the Granada. Ten minutes into his sermon,  I realized i had touched a nerve, Which was my intention, All this goes back to his (mailing me two Boiled eggs). He has been told where he can stick those eggs. He is a happy man with the Granada, His only regret is, He has retired and never got to play it while performing on the road. He also had comments concerning all the whispers concerning this banjo, Those comments are for those completely Deaf,,,,,,,,And can,t read lips,,,,,,,,,,

southerndrifter - Posted - 04/24/2017:  08:19:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bob Rodgers

 

 I talked to Crowe about this so called flathead Granada. He needs his blood pressure checked every so often.  His BP started out normal, Then elevated quickly.   His first question was,  Is there a picture of the number ( 9584-1 ) as a A T.   Told him I didn,t know.  I preceded to get a history lesson about the Granada. Ten minutes into his sermon,  I realized i had touched a nerve, Which was my intention, All this goes back to his (mailing me two Boiled eggs). He has been told where he can stick those eggs. He is a happy man with the Granada, His only regret is, He has retired and never got to play it while performing on the road. He also had comments concerning all the whispers concerning this banjo, Those comments are for those completely Deaf,,,,,,,,And can,t read lips,,,,,,,,,,

 

---

Well Bob, I understand Crowe's reaction..........I sure hope he doesn't get too disappointed if I can get my hands on that picture!

Bob Rodgers - Posted - 04/24/2017:  14:00:09

Lynwood,   Crowe would probably never look at a picture to pass judgement ,,,,,,,I just wanted to irritate the man for a short period of time,,,,,,,,He once told me, My 75 was a fake. My reply was,,,,, FAKE MY ASS,,,,,,,,,I never knew until years later Keith Whitley was listening to our conversion.   Seems he got the biggest laugh out of my comment,  I didn,t care who heard me at that particular moment. He will get over this Granada issue in time,  If I will keep my mouth shut,,,That may be a problem,,,,,,,

EggerRidgeBoy - Posted - 04/24/2017:  14:32:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by southerndrifter

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robby Boone

 

Well, I've been waiting several days for a photo that is iron clad proof that 9584-1 is really an archtop and still haven't seen it. As I am not real bright and don't think as quick as I used to, all this time waiting has also given me time to come up with a question about the elusive photographic proof......should it ever be found.

Here's my question:

IF a photo does exist and can be found, where is the PROOF that it's a picture of 9584-1? I am sure that it will be a black and white photo, so how would anyone be able to tell if it's a Granada or a Style 4? What I'm getting at is that in a old non HD black and white picture of a Hearts and Flowers banjo, that I will be greatly surprised (and leery) that ANYONE could determine the difference. Is 9584-1 the only banjo that the man ever owned or played??

Enquiring minds want to know,

Robby

---

Robby et al, I apologize for the delay in producing the photo. I sent an email requesting a copy of the photo and I haven't gotten a response, so I'm waiting too. It was about 5 years ago that I saw the photo but there is no mistaking it........it's an archtop.........not an old AT head on a flathead.......but absolutely an AT. It is a Granada too.........or a RB-4 with a Granada armrest. When the picture is enlarged, it has Granada engraving on the armrest. I don't know who the guy was that was holding it. I'm not sure that my friend knew either.

I promise that if I get my hands on the photo, I'll post it immediately. And I never brought this up to in any way devalue the banjo. In my mind, it is still an original flathead, because Gibson did the conversion during the prewar years. There are many examples of Gibson doing this during that period.

---

So I may be missing something, but - as already mentioned - how would it be known that the Granada in the photo is 9584-1?  Because of the person holding it?  Even if that person could be identified as the 9584-1's first (1930's) owner, how could we be sure he isn't holding a different Granada?

If that photo doesn't even make it clear whether the banjo is a Granada or an RB-4 with a Granada armrest, how could it be proof that 9584-1 was originally an archtop?

rcc56 - Posted - 04/24/2017:  15:06:44

Wouldn't this be a good time to drop this whole matter?

southerndrifter - Posted - 04/24/2017:  16:27:45

If the owner of the picture I've talked about will let me have a copy, all questions will be answered. Now that JD owns the banjo, my friend may choose not to share the photo because he wouldn't want people to devalue the banjo, just like I don't want to. This will be my last post on this subject unless I'm able to share the photo.

RB3WREATH - Posted - 04/25/2017:  03:42:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by southerndrifter

 

If the owner of the picture I've talked about will let me have a copy, all questions will be answered. Now that JD owns the banjo, my friend may choose not to share the photo because he wouldn't want people to devalue the banjo, just like I don't want to. This will be my last post on this subject unless I'm able to share the photo.

---

Lynwood,

If you don't want to devalue a banjo through what could be rumors then why  make these accusations that could never be confirmed , photo or no photo

Joe

southerndrifter - Posted - 04/25/2017:  03:50:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by RB3WREATH

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by southerndrifter

 

If the owner of the picture I've talked about will let me have a copy, all questions will be answered. Now that JD owns the banjo, my friend may choose not to share the photo because he wouldn't want people to devalue the banjo, just like I don't want to. This will be my last post on this subject unless I'm able to share the photo.

---

Lynwood,

 

If you don't want to devalue a banjo through what could be rumors then why  make these accusations that could never be confirmed , photo or no photo

 

Joe

---

Joe, I mentioned it because it was another example of the quirky things Gibson did during the prewar years. What I stated is the truth, even if I never get to prove it.

EggerRidgeBoy - Posted - 04/25/2017:  09:17:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by southerndrifter

 

If the owner of the picture I've talked about will let me have a copy, all questions will be answered. Now that JD owns the banjo, my friend may choose not to share the photo because he wouldn't want people to devalue the banjo, just like I don't want to. This will be my last post on this subject unless I'm able to share the photo.

---

Since that was your last post on the subject, I realize there is little point in this post - but nevertheless, I will point out that you don't need to share the photo.  Just explain how you or anybody else who has seen it can be sure the banjo shown is 9584-1.

All the questions I asked in my post above can all be answered without actually sharing the photo. Without such answers - especially to the question of how a photo of a banjo that might actually be an RB-4 - could possible prove anything about 9584-1, it is hard to view the archtop claim as anything more than an unfounded rumor.

Edited by - EggerRidgeBoy on 04/25/2017 09:21:46

southerndrifter - Posted - 04/25/2017:  11:46:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by EggerRidgeBoy

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by southerndrifter

 

If the owner of the picture I've talked about will let me have a copy, all questions will be answered. Now that JD owns the banjo, my friend may choose not to share the photo because he wouldn't want people to devalue the banjo, just like I don't want to. This will be my last post on this subject unless I'm able to share the photo.

---

Since that was your last post on the subject, I realize there is little point in this post - but nevertheless, I will point out that you don't need to share the photo.  Just explain how you or anybody else who has seen it can be sure the banjo shown is 9584-1.

All the questions I asked in my post above can all be answered without actually sharing the photo. Without such answers - especially to the question of how a photo of a banjo that might actually be an RB-4 - could possible prove anything about 9584-1, it is hard to view the archtop claim as anything more than an unfounded rumor.

 

---

Well, do you know how many AT RB-4s with 1-piece flange and H&F inlay were produced by Gibson? That will prove that it wasn't an RB-4.

EggerRidgeBoy - Posted - 04/25/2017:  14:06:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by southerndrifter

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by EggerRidgeBoy

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by southerndrifter

 

If the owner of the picture I've talked about will let me have a copy, all questions will be answered. Now that JD owns the banjo, my friend may choose not to share the photo because he wouldn't want people to devalue the banjo, just like I don't want to. This will be my last post on this subject unless I'm able to share the photo.

---

Since that was your last post on the subject, I realize there is little point in this post - but nevertheless, I will point out that you don't need to share the photo.  Just explain how you or anybody else who has seen it can be sure the banjo shown is 9584-1.

All the questions I asked in my post above can all be answered without actually sharing the photo. Without such answers - especially to the question of how a photo of a banjo that might actually be an RB-4 - could possible prove anything about 9584-1, it is hard to view the archtop claim as anything more than an unfounded rumor.

 

---

Well, do you know how many AT RB-4s with 1-piece flange and H&F inlay were produced by Gibson? That will prove that it wasn't an RB-4.

---

No, I don't.  But you made the archtop claim specifically to give "another example of the quirky things Gibson did during the prewar years", so perhaps there is an AT RB-4 with 1-piece flange and H&F inlay out there somehere.

But more to the point, you initially stated:

"Yes, it's always been a 5-string, but it originally left the factory as an archtop.......at least, the photo evidence indicates that!" 

and went on to write:

"There is a picture of the banjo and it was unmistakeably an archtop!" 

"The photo was very clear and there was no mistake....."

"9584-1 left the factory as an AT and then was sent back and "converted" to a flathead by Gibson."

"As I said before, the photo is clear.......and it is definitely an AT!"

"I saw the photo but there is no mistaking it........it's an archtop.........not an old AT head on a flathead.......but absolutely an AT."

You claimed all that as fact, not as a possibility or a theory.

But you have gone on to say:

"It is a Granada too.........or a RB-4 with a Granada armrest."

"I don't know who the guy was that was holding it. I'm not sure that my friend knew either."

So my question still stands - if the person holding the banjo cannot be identified, and if the instrument itself cannot absolutely be identified as a Granada, how can anybody who views that photo possibly know that they are looking at 9584-1?  Even if we could identify the person, knew he was the original owner of 9584-1, and knew the banjo he was holding was a Granada, there would still be no way to know without any doubt it was 9584-1.

So what is it about this photo that has led you to use it as absolute proof that "9584-1 left the factory as an AT and then was sent back and 'converted' to a flathead by Gibson" ?

It doesn't personally matter to me at all whether that claim is true or not; as you note, even if it is true, 9584-1 could still be considered a factory-original Gibson five-string flathead.  It's just that I honestly cannot figure out the logic behind the claim - i.e., how the photograph, as described, could possibly prove such a thing. 

Edited by - EggerRidgeBoy on 04/25/2017 14:08:34

southerndrifter - Posted - 04/25/2017:  15:07:40

Yeah, I guess you're right.

rcc56 - Posted - 04/25/2017:  19:33:14

Shall we let this go now before this topic brings further unnecessary distress to the previous and present owners and the retailer?