tucsonsean - Posted - 10/20/2016:  10:41:30

Despite assurances from more-experienced players, I worry when tuning Nylguts, especially the fifth string, up to fiddle D or A tuning.  Do clawhammer players ever tune down to D, E, or F# for a drone in these keys?  These notes work for TFTL players' drone.  Just wondering.  Might put less stress on the fifth string, and the player who has to retune.

Edited by - tucsonsean on 10/20/2016 10:43:29

Fathand - Posted - 10/20/2016:  11:02:20

This depends on which set of Nylguts you have and your scale length. Since you are talking fretless you can move your bridge to shorten the scale and raise the pitch without tightening the strings.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 10/20/2016:  11:04:04

I believe Nylgut may have a new formula that seems more durable to me.

The Classicals are now a cream color as opposed to the former white.

I have a newer fretted banjo I've been using them on. Tuning it up to standard,

I was worried about 5th string breakage when tuning the 5th up to A because that was

my experience in the past. Thus far, no 5th string breaks when tuning up to A. I should

say though that the banjo is a short 24" scale.



I really like the sound of these Nylguts on this banjo. If I had experienced 5th string breakage,

I was planning on putting a medium steel fifth on the banjo and muting it. So far so good though.

I would still recommend the deburring of any metal parts and breaking any sharp edges the strings my tighten against.

You can move the bridge, but it will change the note locations on the fingerboard to some degree.  If you go that direction,  I'd recommend always practicing a tune with the bridge in the spot you are going tto place it when playing in the correct key to help establish muscle-memory for the tune in question.

Hope this helps.

Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 10/20/2016 11:20:14

tucsonsean - Posted - 10/20/2016:  11:51:14

Good info, thanks. It doesn't answer my original question, about tuning down the 5th string, so I'll assume that answer is "no." (Might try it anyway, to see how it sounds.) BTW, the scale on the fretless is 25" and the strings in question are Super Nylgut--Classic.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 10/20/2016:  12:25:18

I'd guess you're OK with a 25".

Tuning the 5th string to a different note like you asked would be something you'd have to try on a tune by tune basis.
For example, I sometimes use the eCGCD tuning, but if the tune has an F note as a prominent part of the melody, or there is an implied
change to an F chord, the "e" can clash.

So, my recommendation would be to look for a way to get your 5th up to "a". It is the best all around solution.

stevel - Posted - 10/20/2016:  13:24:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by tucsonsean

 

Good info, thanks. It doesn't answer my original question, about tuning down the 5th string, so I'll assume that answer is "no." (Might try it anyway, to see how it sounds.) BTW, the scale on the fretless is 25" and the strings in question are Super Nylgut--Classic.

---

You can comfortably tune up the 5th string up to A.  I've done it for years on a 25.5" scale Chuck Lee. 

Tuning down will work for some songs, but it can also clash quite a bit for others.  I find when tuning the 5th down like that, its better to play more melodically and avoid the 5th string most or all of the time.

banjered - Posted - 10/20/2016:  14:04:40

Nylguts don't do as well as steel strings for quick key/pitch changes. I have nylguts on my fun banjos but steel strings on my jam banjo. Another excuse to get another banjo(s), one for each key! banjered

hurdy_gurdyman - Posted - 10/21/2016:  17:16:46

I use the old model train spike with both classic and minstrel Nylgut. Been using them for a few years now. You just have to make sure the spikes are not in deep enough to pinch the strings and cause a nick in the string. I never have to tune up the 5th string.

Dave

ClayTech - Posted - 10/22/2016:  05:41:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjered

 

Nylguts don't do as well as steel strings for quick key/pitch changes. I have nylguts on my fun banjos but steel strings on my jam banjo. Another excuse to get another banjo(s), one for each key! banjered

---

Are you referring to the fact that they stretch more and take more turns of the tuning machines to change their pitch?

drfordo - Posted - 10/22/2016:  06:24:30

For the same reasons, I've played around with a de-tuned 5th string and not found a sound that really worked to my ears.  I have the newer off-white Classic Super Nylguts on a 27" scale SS Stewart.  I've tuned the 5th string up to Ab, which sounds okay with some (eerie) key of A tunes, but I'm scared to go up to A.  I'd love to know if anyone tunes a Nylgut 5th string up to A on a 27" scale banjo.

Sean

banjered - Posted - 10/22/2016:  19:19:09

quote:
Originally posted by banjered

Nylguts don't do as well as steel strings for quick key/pitch changes. I have nylguts on my fun banjos but steel strings on my jam banjo. Another excuse to get another banjo(s), one for each key! banjered

CLAYTECH: Are you referring to the fact that they stretch more and take more turns of the tuning machines to change their pitch?

They are just more "stretchy" and take awhile to settle in at a new tension which may not work well at a jam with frequent key changes.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 10/22/2016:  21:48:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by drfordo

I've tuned the 5th string up to Ab, which sounds okay with some (eerie) key of A tunes, but I'm scared to go up to A.  I'd love to know if anyone tunes a Nylgut 5th string up to A on a 27" scale banjo.

Sean

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Sean:

Don't mean to be a smart aleck, but it's just a banjo string. Twist that peg!

Investigate and report!

I've got a spike at the 7th on one of my banjos, but the Nylgut keeps popping out from under it.

Maybe a poor installation job, or maybe NG's just don't work with a spike.  If you could get a spike

to work... problem solved.

Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 10/22/2016 21:54:32

drfordo - Posted - 10/22/2016:  22:19:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by drfordo

I've tuned the 5th string up to Ab, which sounds okay with some (eerie) key of A tunes, but I'm scared to go up to A.  I'd love to know if anyone tunes a Nylgut 5th string up to A on a 27" scale banjo.

Sean

---

Sean:

Don't mean to be a smart aleck, but it's just a banjo string. Twist that peg!

Investigate and report!

---

I will.  I broke one already two days after I bought the Stewart.  That was a new string, so I've been easing the next one in..and five months later, I'm already up to A-flat!  Stay tuned!

Sean

Edited by - drfordo on 10/22/2016 22:22:18

banjered - Posted - 10/23/2016:  07:23:25

R.D. - The way I use my spike is I lift the fifth string off it's pip and place the string on the inner side of the pip and then hook the string under the spike. My spike faces toward the outer edge of the neck but if yours faces inward then you'd place the string on the outer side of the pip. The extra tension keeps the string in place in the spike. Works for me, might work for you and others. banjered

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 10/23/2016:  12:49:02

Sorry Sean- I should have read more carefully. Didn't realize you'd already broken one. I can certainly understand your reticence.
I've broken Nylguts of the old formulation on a 25.5 trying to tune up to "a". It is only with the new color strings on a 24 that I've suceeded.
Nylguts a re a good product and I love the sound on this particular banjo, but the breakage is/was a problem. Hoping the new cream-colored strings
are an across-the-board solution. They're working for me at present.

****************

Tom- Thanks for the suggestion. I'll give it a try.

drfordo - Posted - 10/23/2016:  15:42:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

 

Sorry Sean- I should have read more carefully. Didn't realize you'd already broken one. I can certainly understand your reticence.

I've broken Nylguts of the old formulation on a 25.5 trying to tune up to "a". It is only with the new color strings on a 24 that I've suceeded.

Nylguts a re a good product and I love the sound on this particular banjo, but the breakage is/was a problem. Hoping the new cream-colored strings

are an across-the-board solution. They're working for me at present.

---

Not at all, R. D.--I failed to mention in my first post that I'd already broken one Nylgut 5th string.  And the first one was a white, not a cream, most likely of an older formula.  I was fishing to find out if anyone with a 27" scale had tuned a Nylgut 5th up to A.  I also figured it would help confirm for the OP that tuning up on a shorter scale instrument should be no problem.

I agree, too, that tuning down is definitely worth experimenting with, especially if the drone string is not thumbed at every turn.  Fretless banjos are capable of an extraordinary range of beautiful or bright and happy as well as haunting and hypnotizing sounds.  Utilizing an odd drone that manages to sync with the melody of any particular song can create an entirely new sound and provide a means for you to put your own unique stamp on the song.

Sean

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 10/23/2016:  19:15:46

Very true.

drfordo - Posted - 11/25/2016:  10:15:46

Last evening, after long postponement and to match a mandolin rendition of "The Kitchen Girl," I brought my Nylgut 5th safely up to A.  Sounded great.  It's a Super Nylgut Classic set on on a 27"-inch scale SS Stewart.  Tucson Sean, how are the Nylguts working out on your 25"-inch fretless?  And have you discovered any interesting sound variations in your experiments with de-tuning your 5th?

Sean

Bill - Posted - 11/27/2016:  08:51:08

My Reiter has a 26.25" scale. My 5th string (Super Nylgut) has been on there for 18 months now. I never hesitate to tune it up to A.

Paul Meredith - Posted - 11/27/2016:  19:45:36

I am experimenting with Super Nylgut Classic Banjo (medium tension) strings on a 26" scale, fretted banjo.  More important than the scale length is the overall length, which is better approximated by the nut to rear of the tailpiece length.  In my case, this is 31".  Tuning up to open A and double D worked fine for about a week.  Then, the 2nd string broke at the loop, no sharp edges nearby.  I also had the 5th break at the loop a few days later.  I retied both about 3 weeks ago and they have been fine since then.  But, while I play them daily I have not been retuning them much, I don't know if that would increase the breakage.  This set has the solid 4th string which I greatly prefer to the old wound.

I also have a set of "light tension" Nylguts, they measure about 10% (on average) less thickness than the mediums.  These are my backup plan if I get more breaks.  I hope they're not needed as I like the feel and sound of the mediums tuned up to A and double D.

Finally, when Chris Sands strings become available again, I want to try those as many seem to prefer them over Nylguts.

Paul Meredith - Posted - 11/28/2016:  10:28:31

Correction to my above post - it is only the scale length that matters, not the overall string length.

tucsonsean - Posted - 12/29/2016:  20:41:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by drfordo

 

Last evening, after long postponement and to match a mandolin rendition of "The Kitchen Girl," I brought my Nylgut 5th safely up to A.  Sounded great.  It's a Super Nylgut Classic set on on a 27"-inch scale SS Stewart.  Tucson Sean, how are the Nylguts working out on your 25"-inch fretless?  And have you discovered any interesting sound variations in your experiments with de-tuning your 5th?

Sean

---

Sean, I experimented and found some interesting combinations.  I also got out Art Rosenbaum's book Old Time Mountain Banjo, and realized that with the 23 tunings he lists in the appendix, I could play in any key without a lot of bother.  But especially interesting was a video Guy Wolff had on YouTube.  His suggestion?  Just move the bridge (towards the neck) to 'tune up.'  Mark Hickler, who made the neck, at my request installed markers on the side of the fingerboard where the 2nd and 5th frets would've been.  I already had pencil marks on the head where the 25" scale bridge should be.  I just measured the distance from the nut to the '2nd fret' location on the neck, then measured the same distance from the current bridge position towards the neck and moved the bridge up--and mariked that.  Voila! With a little adjustment I went from open G to open A.  Guy also recommends using a taller bridge, but I like the action staying the same.  The sound's a little thinner, but no worse than that with a capo on a fretted banjo.  The pot's an old Gariepy aluminum archtop, so there's very little loss in volume.  Playing by myself, I like to take the time to fiddle with arrangements in different tunings.  But now I can take my fretless to a jam and retune on the run.

Edited by - tucsonsean on 12/29/2016 20:46:55