Tam_Zeb - Posted - 08/15/2016:  02:22:35

Trying to determine speed in TablEdit

A TAB in 4/4 Time with the Tempo set to a value of 200. What playback speed is this ? 200 BPM ???

Tobus - Posted - 08/15/2016:  04:32:51

Yep, that's it.  When you go to MIDI - Options, the tempo is in BPM and the playback will use that tempo.  The usual rules apply: in 4/4 time it would be 200 BPM, but if you were notated in 2/4 time, you'd have to change it to 100 BPM for the same speed.

JoeDownes - Posted - 08/15/2016:  05:55:13

Tabledit counts the bass beats and the mandolin chops, while most banjo players count only the bass beats, so a speed of 200 bpm in tabledit is often referred to as 100 bpm. FMB would be around 320-330 bpm in tabledit to match the speed of Earl's recording.

Edited by - JoeDownes on 08/15/2016 05:58:42

eagleisland - Posted - 08/15/2016:  06:51:04

Joe Downes has it right. Divide the TablEdit tempo number by 2 to get BPM.

Tam_Zeb - Posted - 08/15/2016:  08:08:44

Thanks Guy's

janolov - Posted - 08/15/2016:  08:22:55

The tempo in TablEdit is how many quarter notes are played per minute. BMP means beats per minute. A beat is not always the same as a quarter note, but can be the same.

TablEdit tempo is equal to BMP when a beat is a quarter note. If the tune is written in 4/4 time signature there are four beats per measure and the measure consists of four quarter notes., If the music is written in 2/2  or 2/4 there are two beats in a measure and the measure is two half tones long respectively two quarter notes.

In my opinion a lot of Bluegrass and Old-Time tabs are written in wrong time signature. There are a lot of tunes built up of consists of 8 1/8 notes and the time signature is 4/4, but the bass and guitar accompaniment is more indicating that a beat is a half tone long (usually a half tone on bass and two quarter notes on guitar - bass plus chord. Those tunes should be written as 2/2 rather than 4/4. In 4/4 the BMP is the tempo divided by 2, but in 2/2 the BMP is the same as the TablEdit tempo.

Tam_Zeb - Posted - 08/17/2016:  04:19:26

quote:

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Originally posted by janolov

 

The tempo in TablEdit is how many quarter notes are played per minute. BMP means beats per minute. A beat is not always the same as a quarter note, but can be the same.

TablEdit tempo is equal to BMP when a beat is a quarter note. If the tune is written in 4/4 time signature there are four beats per measure and the measure consists of four quarter notes., If the music is written in 2/2  or 2/4 there are two beats in a measure and the measure is two half tones long respectively two quarter notes.

In my opinion a lot of Bluegrass and Old-Time tabs are written in wrong time signature. There are a lot of tunes built up of consists of 8 1/8 notes and the time signature is 4/4, but the bass and guitar accompaniment is more indicating that a beat is a half tone long (usually a half tone on bass and two quarter notes on guitar - bass plus chord. Those tunes should be written as 2/2 rather than 4/4. In 4/4 the BMP is the tempo divided by 2, but in 2/2 the BMP is the same as the TablEdit tempo.

 

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Hi Jan

Thank you. for the clarification

I understand this term "4/4" to mean four beats in the bar, four quarter notes as taught to me when I was at school, way back in a previous life and it has stuck with me ever since.

Not trying to cloud the issue with bluegrass, cut time or the speed at which Earl play's FMB.

I am just truing to determine what speed in BPM TablEdit plays a file back when the time signature is set to 4/4 time and the Tempo is 200

Jack Baker - Posted - 08/17/2016:  12:14:52

Hi Tam,

Tabledit plays (clicks), twice as fast at a regular metronome. So if a song is playing at 60 beats per minute on a regular metronome, tabledit plays it at 120 beats per minute...It is as simple as that. I could go into all kinds of theoretical details but it is not necessary to think about all of this...hope this helps...Jack 

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Originally posted by Tam_Zeb

Trying to determine speed in TablEdit

A TAB in 4/4 Time with the Tempo set to a value of 200. What playback speed is this ? 200 BPM ???

 

 

 

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Edited by - Jack Baker on 08/17/2016 12:15:43

Tobus - Posted - 08/18/2016:  05:53:58

It sounds like some people here are really confused about how tempo works with the time signature.  TablEdit works correctly, and displays the BPM accurately according to the time signature it is written in.  This may, of course, conflict with your understanding of the nomenclature, but the rules have been defined for many centuries and are worth knowing.

janolov described it correctly.  You don't have to divide by two for BPM.  If the tempo is twice the number you were expecting, it's because the piece is notated in 4/4 instead of 2/4 time.  As for whether one is more "correct" than the other, I don't think it makes any difference.  It's just math, y'all.  The tempo, note durations, number of beats or notes per measure, are all comparable between the two time signatures and it is very simple to play the exact same music either way.  It's just a matter of knowing which one you're in.  It's almost literally six of one, half dozen of the other.  In other words, it's the same thing, but called by two different descriptions.

Jack Baker - Posted - 08/18/2016:  06:33:50

Thanks Tobin,

You've answered all the questions...No more needed...Jack

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Originally posted by Tobus

 

Tam_Zeb - Posted - 08/18/2016:  06:38:48

I am even more confused now. I didn't ask about cut time, 2/2 or  2/4

I said.  Trying to determine speed in TablEdit

 A TAB in 4/4 Time with the Tempo set to a value of 200. What playback speed is this ? 200 BPM ???

Jack Baker - Posted - 08/18/2016:  07:03:42

Sorry Tam,

 I'm not sure I understand what you're asking so good luck with all the rest...Jack  p.s. try writing to Matthieu about this, he'll set everything straight correctly...j.

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Originally posted by Tam_Zeb

 

I am even more confused now. I didn't ask about cut time, 2/2 or  2/4

I said.  Trying to determine speed in TablEdit

 A TAB in 4/4 Time with the Tempo set to a value of 200. What playback speed is this ? 200 BPM ???

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Edited by - Jack Baker on 08/18/2016 07:10:10

banjobits - Posted - 08/18/2016:  07:29:54

Tam,

You're not alone on this one. Something is clearly messed up when a metronome has a max speed of 208 and Foggy Mountain Breakdown is at 300. However, I did find a way to think about this that makes it easy to understand. 

Think of the time signature for a measure as something unrelated to the metronome. The time signature simply defines the math for the measure. 4/4 time means the measure must have a length of 4 quarter notes. If you don't have that many notes you must add rests to make the numbers add up. 4/4, 2/4, 2/2 have nothing to do with speed.

The metronome has two settings: a speed (e.g. 120) and a beat (e.g. half note). So a Tabledit tempo of  300 in 4/4 time, is really 150BPM on a metronome where the beat is a half note, not a quarter note. The metronome setting and time signature are not connected in any way. If people tabbed in 2/4 or 2/2 there would be less confusion because the metronome speed/beat would line up with the time signature. Unfortunately, in the real world people tab banjo songs in 4/4 at 300 miles per hour and no one is going to change that.

MickG - Posted - 08/18/2016:  09:18:30

Refer to the tab "tempo" I uploaded to the Archive

From the TablEdit Help:

Tempo

This sets the basic playback speed for the tablature. Tempo can be set anywhere from 2 to 500 1/4 notes a minute. The most common range is between 72 and 180 1/4 notes a minute depending on the Time signature of the piece.

TablEdit parses each measure of a tab at the rate set in MIDI Options. If the tempo is set to 60, then the tab is played at 60 quarter notes per minute. If set to 120 the tab is played at 120 quarter notes per minute.

Confusion comes in because most of us tab Scruggs style banjo using eighth notes instead of the actual sixteenth notes.  In typical Bluegrass the banjo is playing 4 sixteenth notes per beat. The most accurate way to tab would be to tab in 2/4 using sixteenth notes as Bill Keith did in the original Scruggs book.

So to get a typical tab in 4/4 tabbed using quarter notes, instead of sixteenth, you have to set the tempo higher to get it up to speed.

Sorry to add more to the confusion. I couldn't help myself!

MickG

banjobits - Posted - 08/18/2016:  10:09:26

And to add more confusion,

Take a look at a Beatles' tab in the BHO archives called 'Here comes the sun' , tabbed by Rob Bishline. This tab is in 4/4, but it's slow so 4/4 is a good choice. It also travels through 3/8, 4/8, 5/8, 6/8 and every other key signature known to man. However the metronome just happily ticks along. Somehow, at the end it all comes together on beat. I think it's because the top numbers on all the time signatures add up to an even number of eighth notes. And when the time signatures and metronome temporarily go out of wack, the tension that results is one of the reasons this song is so magical -- the notes and chords resolve and so does the beat.

Tobus - Posted - 08/18/2016:  10:45:09

quote:

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Originally posted by MickG

 

Confusion comes in because most of us tab Scruggs style banjo using eighth notes instead of the actual sixteenth notes.  In typical Bluegrass the banjo is playing 4 sixteenth notes per beat. The most accurate way to tab would be to tab in 2/4 using sixteenth notes as Bill Keith did in the original Scruggs book.

 

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Why is this any more "accurate" than playing eighth notes in 4/4 time?  It's just semantics.  Both are describing the exact same thing.

About the only reason I can think of that 2/4 time would be preferred is if you're a foot-tapper.  Most people will tap their feet twice in a measure, and then think of those as the downbeats.  So it would make sense that with two beats per measure, 2/4 time would be the way to go.

But for non-banjo players who use picks (like guitars and mandolins), it's much more intuitive to think of it in 4/4 time, with each downstroke of the pick being a downbeat.  In a typical measure with 8 notes to play, it would be 4 downstrokes and 4 upstrokes.  So 4/4 time is the way to go.  Even for clawhammer banjo, it makes more sense in this time signature.  Every downstroke is a beat.  For guitar players playing a "boom-chuck" backup, every downstroke is a beat.

Honestly, I think this is why most modern tabbers will go with 4/4 time.  Aside from being easier on the eyes to read notes on the staff (seriously, the double beams of sixteenth notes can clutter up the notation), it's just more intuitive for players.

banjobits - Posted - 08/18/2016:  14:01:22

In Sibelius, Finale, Lilypond, Musescore.... you can set the tempo for foggy mountain in 4/4 time to 'half note = 150'. You can't do that with Tabledit so you end up with 'quarter note=300'. The metronome goes up to 208. Confusion begins.

Sounds like a fairly simple Tabledit feature request. Hard to argue when every other program out there does it exactly the same way.  

Jack Baker - Posted - 08/18/2016:  21:10:09

Mick,

Thanks for putting what this latest thread is all about by simply posting a tab example. This is exactly what I've been trying to say. Everybody complicates a very simple answer to this often asked timing problem. I find it a little silly that so many expound so much...Jack 

Timing Solution   Solved

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Originally posted by MickG

Edited by - Jack Baker on 08/18/2016 21:10:58

Tam_Zeb - Posted - 08/19/2016:  01:35:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by MickG

 

Refer to the tab "tempo" I uploaded to the Archive

From the TablEdit Help:

Tempo

This sets the basic playback speed for the tablature. Tempo can be set anywhere from 2 to 500 1/4 notes a minute. The most common range is between 72 and 180 1/4 notes a minute depending on the Time signature of the piece.

TablEdit parses each measure of a tab at the rate set in MIDI Options. If the tempo is set to 60, then the tab is played at 60 quarter notes per minute. If set to 120 the tab is played at 120 quarter notes per minute.

Confusion comes in because most of us tab Scruggs style banjo using eighth notes instead of the actual sixteenth notes.  In typical Bluegrass the banjo is playing 4 sixteenth notes per beat. The most accurate way to tab would be to tab in 2/4 using sixteenth notes as Bill Keith did in the original Scruggs book.

So to get a typical tab in 4/4 tabbed using quarter notes, instead of sixteenth, you have to set the tempo higher to get it up to speed.

Sorry to add more to the confusion. I couldn't help myself!

MickG

 

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Thank you Mick you've managed  to cut through the confusion and spared my old grey brain cells.

Just to clarify for the sake of  EVERYONE 

My question wasn't about bluegrass, it wasn't about Earl, It wasn't about cut time it wasn't about playing in in 3/4, 6/8, 2/2 or 2/4 time signatures

This is why I deliberately framed my query in this fashion

" Trying to determine speed in TablEdit

A TAB in 4/4 Time with the Tempo set to a value of 200. What playback speed is this ? 200 BPM ??? "

My question is more to do about the specifications of the software and how accurate those specifications are.

The confusion comes about when well meaning folks try to predict the reasoning behind the question instead of responding to the facts, then others wade in with a different slant on what the previous person posted. 

The kind of response I was looking for was something like this:

A. YES the speed is 200 BPM or NO the speed is not 200 BPM because the output is not accurate.

None the less I am grateful to MickG for rescuing this Dozy Old Fart from his dilemma.  

banjobits - Posted - 08/19/2016:  06:33:37

janolov, "a lot of Bluegrass and Old-Time tabs are written in wrong time signature"

I agree. Not having a way to specify the 'B' in 'BPM' is also a huge problem in Tabledit.

I think I'm going to convert all my stuff to 2/2. I don't like the look of 2/4 -- too much ink.  I'm also going to fix my software to handle BPM correctly because I'm currently doing it wrong, just like Tabledit. However, I never really understood it before now. I was confusing time signatures with metronome settings e.g. In a jig the metronome ticks twice per measure even though the time signature 6/8 says 6 beats per measure.

Tam - thanks for the original question - I think I finally understand something that has been bothering me for years - my metronome max speed is 200 so how can foggy mountain go 320?

Jack Baker - Posted - 08/19/2016:  08:36:49

Tam,

I'm glad that Mick G. answered your questions. I'd stay away from posters who leave no identity or website as they are useless to normal conversation...This site is full of them and all they want to do is tell you how brilliant they are--they are not!--just another form of "trolling".... 

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Originally posted by Tam_Zeb 

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Edited by - Jack Baker on 08/19/2016 08:39:16

Texasbanjo - Posted - 08/19/2016:  11:03:13

I have hidden a couple of posts that were getting a little on the flaming side.  Please, let's keep it civil or we'll be forced to either lock the thread or lock the person(s) involved.