mworden - Posted - 06/14/2016:  13:11:54

I'm considering trying to add some two finger picking to my repertoire and I'm not sure if I want to focus first on thumb or index lead.  I've searched and read much of the material on the site in which people ask "which is better?" or "what are the advantages?" of one vs the other.  I understand at some level that index lead can be thought of much like clawhammer but with uppicking, whereas thumb lead puts the drone on a different beat.  I also understand that some players can switch from one to the other in the same tune as they see fit.  I don't really have a good internal sense, however, of how one sounds vs the other.  I'm hoping someone can point me to an example, preferably by the same player, of same tune being played using both techniques.  Anyone?

banjo bill-e - Posted - 06/14/2016:  13:18:41

Two examples off the top of my head; to hear some great index lead go to Chip Arnold's home page here at the hangout. To hear some great Thumb Lead go to youtube and search Lee Sexton.
I find index lead a bit smoother and more refined and Thumb lead a bit more simple and direct, almost primitive but in a good way.
And you are starting in the right place, with the sound that you want to make.

Chris Berry - Posted - 06/14/2016:  13:50:55

Same tune, not the same artist:



Poor Ellen Smith



Pete Steele, thumb lead:

youtu.be/W-1Pb4301hQ



Bascom Lamar Lunsford, index lead:

youtu.be/U1mBLxC-I48

Chris

Edited by - Chris Berry on 06/14/2016 13:53:02

Brooklynbanjoboy - Posted - 06/14/2016:  13:55:12

Actually, it pays to watch the excellent videos and instructional material on Chris Berry's Youtube channel:

youtube.com/user/banjochris

Emiel - Posted - 06/14/2016:  14:25:48

I think that the index-lead style of Basom Lamar Lunsford is a special form of this style. The pure index-lead two-finger style sounds more crisp compared to the thumb-lead. To play pure thumb-lead can be difficult when using the first string for melody. It can be done, e.g., Roscoe Holcomb. Many switch into index-finger lead when doing this. I too have come to mix the thumb-lead and index-finger lead, and often like to even mix-in a third finger, which leads to three-finger picking. 

If you confine yourself to these basic pattern, they sound quite different, try yourself...

Edited by - Emiel on 06/14/2016 14:26:11

thisoldman - Posted - 06/14/2016:  14:56:54

check out Jan Olov's (janolov) music files for some examples of 2-finger style(s).  He also has a lot of tab here on the BHO.  Also check out Sean Barth (mojo_monk) here and on his website -- 2ftlbanjer.wordpress.com/

For index lead, my go-to resource suggestion would be Chip Arnold (already mentioned). 

banjo bill-e - Posted - 06/14/2016:  15:37:24

whoops, try again later!

Edited by - banjo bill-e on 06/14/2016 15:39:19

Don Huber - Posted - 06/14/2016:  17:15:14

Learn both; the two styles compliment each other. I don't think this necessarily has to be an either/or choice. I don't think the Elders went to banjo camp and scratched their head over which class to sign up for. If they needed to catch an occasional note on the 1st string by picking up they just did it. Some stroked up and down.

Picking Dick - Posted - 06/15/2016:  06:05:09

Good Lord! Not ANOTHER way to pick! I just started fumbling with Thumb Lead (without much instruction but making some little progress) and, now, yet another style. My head's gonna explode!

Tobus - Posted - 06/15/2016:  06:28:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brooklynbanjoboy

 

Actually, it pays to watch the excellent videos and instructional material on Chris Berry's Youtube channel:

youtube.com/user/banjochris

---

Chris has some great videos there that I really like.  In trying to learn 2-finger thumb-lead style, I've been through pretty much every video I can find, but it's still sort of tough to find a path to playing beyond the basics.  So Chris, since you're in this thread, maybe you can help out! 

For example, I really dig your Soldier's Joy video but I can't make sense of it.  I play that one clawhammer style, and I'd like to be able to go back and forth between 2FTL and clawhammer.  I *think* you're playing thumb-lead on that one (although the occasional ping I think I hear on the 5th strings sounds like it's on a frailing pattern), but you're playing it so darn fast and your picking hand is mostly off-camera during that video.  Between that and the fact that my sound doesn't seem to synch up correctly with video, I am having a hard time analyzing what you're doing there.  Slowing the video down just makes the note quality all grainy and doesn't help at all.  Might you have some tablature for how you play that, or could you do a slower tutorial/lesson on it for us? 

Edited by - Tobus on 06/15/2016 06:34:54

Chadbanjo - Posted - 06/15/2016:  06:35:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by Picking Dick

 

Good Lord! Not ANOTHER way to pick! I just started fumbling with Thumb Lead (without much instruction but making some little progress) and, now, yet another style. My head's gonna explode!

---

Hey Dick, forget about it. I've noticed you asking about and I think you're learning numerous styles. Try sticking with no more then 2 styles for now. You're probably gona overload yourself and fall short on everyone of them. Just a suggestion, I can take a hike now.

Picking Dick - Posted - 06/15/2016:  06:56:52

Well, I took up thumb lead because my fingernails are beginning to give me trouble with Clawhammer which I like a lot. I thought it would be good to have a style to fall back on when they finally go.

I don't know if I should say it, but my real love is Irish. I have a fairly new Gold Tone, and I'm bangin' away it too. So that gives me three, but I'll stop there (mebbe).

You're most probably correct, but I've always played lots of different instruments. I love to learn. It's how I get most of my musical enjoyment.

Chadbanjo - Posted - 06/15/2016:  08:11:05

Dick, yep i love Irish tunes and how they sound on the 4 string to. I made some progress a few months ago, learned a few tunes. Not sure if I've given up on it completely, I hate picks. I hate fingers picks thumb picks, plectrums. When I first started on the banjo, it was bluegrass I wanted to learn. No doubt you can play bluegrass with out picks, but its not the same clear sound. Time to play and learn different styles is an issue.

Seems clawhammer is with me for good. I'd like to learn harmonica though, thats another topic of course.

If you have all sorts of time for different styles, I hope it works for you.

Edited by - Chadbanjo on 06/15/2016 08:12:47

mworden - Posted - 06/15/2016:  08:20:56

I like the "pinch" accent.  Is one or the other better for incorporating that?

Picking Dick - Posted - 06/15/2016:  08:27:22

I like Clawhammer a lot too. I like its old timeiness, but, as I mentioned before, it's starting to eat my fingernails.

I could play bluegrass rolls pretty well, but I just couldn't seem to hear the melodies, and I didn't care for the finger picks either. I suppose I coulda gotten usta them though. The flat picks don't bother me, in fact, I kinda like 'em. But, of course, fingers are the easiest and most comfortable.

One of the best things about Thumb Lead or IT or to a big extent---no chords!! The only big problem
I had with all the instruments I ever learned was on my keyboard--CHORDS! Bah!

chip arnold - Posted - 06/15/2016:  08:49:07

Mike, pinches are done with equal ease in both T & I lead.



Dick, No chords? You can play chords with any style. I & T lead are not exceptions. 



There is a short index lead tutorial on my BHO music page



banjohangout.org/myhangout/mus...p?id=6347

Also a few tabs are among the photos on my page.

Picking Dick - Posted - 06/15/2016:  09:40:57

I suppose so, Chip, but so far my IT and T-lead doesn't have any. And my CH in gDGCD supposedly only uses the open G.

Too bad you warned me about others, but I'll get 'em when I get 'em. I can play chords, but they make my string playing a bit more too much. I come from a very long wind instrument background, so I'm not usta playin' chords though I understand 'em.

janolov - Posted - 06/15/2016:  11:58:08

In the attached tab I have tried to demonstrate index lead and thumb lead and a combination of these. In the combined version high melody notes (open first string and higher) are played with index lead and lower melody notes are played with thumb lead and I show some examples how to change between them. I have chosen Cripple Creek as example tune, and I think all variations are rather easy.

Index lead and thumb lead demonstration

mworden - Posted - 06/15/2016:  12:14:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by janolov

 

In the attached tab I have tried to demonstrate index lead and thumb lead and a combination of these. In the combined version high melody notes (open first string and higher) are played with index lead and lower melody notes are played with thumb lead and I show some examples how to change between them. I have chosen Cripple Creek as example tune, and I think all variations are rather easy.

---

Thank you, this is really great.  I'm looking forward to working through it.  It's asking a lot but if there is any chance you or someone else could post a sound file of this I'd be really grateful.  As I mentioned, I'd really like to get a good feeling for how one approach sounds compared to the other and that might be easier listening to someone competent with the styles play rather than listening to myself stumble through them.

chip arnold - Posted - 06/15/2016:  14:31:56

Janolov's tab is a good one. I like the T & I lead combined version a lot.

buffalo banjo - Posted - 06/16/2016:  10:25:28

What is the best way to transpose claw hammer tab to 2finger thumb/index lead tab

janolov - Posted - 06/16/2016:  10:57:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by buffalo banjo

 

What is the best way to transpose claw hammer tab to 2finger thumb/index lead tab

---

Usually index lead can be played note by note as clawhammer

​For thumb lead: identify the core melody notes and play them with the thumb. Use hammers and pull-offs and slides as in clawhammer. Fill out with drone notes on the first string (index finger) and thumb on the fifth string. 

Compare my tabs above. The index lead version can easily be played as clawhammer. The thumb lead version is based on the index lead version.

Chris Berry - Posted - 06/16/2016:  16:15:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tobus

 

 

Chris has some great videos there that I really like.  In trying to learn 2-finger thumb-lead style, I've been through pretty much every video I can find, but it's still sort of tough to find a path to playing beyond the basics.  So Chris, since you're in this thread, maybe you can help out! 

For example, I really dig your Soldier's Joy video but I can't make sense of it.  I play that one clawhammer style, and I'd like to be able to go back and forth between 2FTL and clawhammer.  I *think* you're playing thumb-lead on that one (although the occasional ping I think I hear on the 5th strings sounds like it's on a frailing pattern), but you're playing it so darn fast and your picking hand is mostly off-camera during that video.  Between that and the fact that my sound doesn't seem to synch up correctly with video, I am having a hard time analyzing what you're doing there.  Slowing the video down just makes the note quality all grainy and doesn't help at all.  Might you have some tablature for how you play that, or could you do a slower tutorial/lesson on it for us? 

---

That "Soldier's Joy" is pure clawhammer, and sometimes those older YouTube videos play off-sync a bit. I don't have tablature for the way I play it but if you search out Hobart Smith's version that's basically what I'm trying to do. One of the weirdest things in that version is in the first descending phrase of the low part, where (I'll write this as if you were tuned to double-D) you come down to the G on the fifth fret of the bass string and then hammer on from the F# (4th fret) back up to that G. A little different melody than usual.

On thumb-lead pieces I do occasionally break into index-lead for notes on the first string but even more often I switch up from thumb-lead to "Little Birdie" style, where you pick up on the string with your index and then brush down with the same finger. If you do it quickly and without much of a brush it sounds much more like picking than frailing. That "Little Birdie" style is one of my favorites and is a bit difficult to do at first but if you work it out you can do a lot with it.

Chris

Tobus - Posted - 06/17/2016:  12:35:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chris Berry



 

On thumb-lead pieces I do occasionally break into index-lead for notes on the first string but even more often I switch up from thumb-lead to "Little Birdie" style, where you pick up on the string with your index and then brush down with the same finger. If you do it quickly and without much of a brush it sounds much more like picking than frailing. That "Little Birdie" style is one of my favorites and is a bit difficult to do at first but if you work it out you can do a lot with it.

 

---

Oh wow, that throws another level of complexity into it.  But it does explain something that's been bothering me about trying to learn 2-finger thumb-lead style banjo playing.

With clawhammer, it's pretty straightforward that the frailing finger (index or middle, I use index) generally strikes one of the first four strings on the downstroke with the thumb either resting, plucking the drone string, or doing a drop-thumb on the upstroke.  But there's no issue with the frailing finger getting tangled up in the thumb's turf, as it were, and having to invade the fifth string area.  But with thumb-lead, it seems very awkward to play melody notes on the first string because that's the index finger's turf.  And pretty much every tune I want to play uses the first string at some point.

So it seems I have two options.  Either shift gears and go to an index lead where called for, then switch back to thumb lead somewhere convenient (since the strokes will be backwards), or just adopt what you describe as the "little birdie" to allow the use of the index finger as a lead without necessarily changing the entire pattern.  That does make a lot of sense, but I imagine it would be difficult to do at speed.  It's good food for thought, though, and I'm definitely going to try it out and see if it opens up some areas where I've been struggling.  Thanks for that!

BobTheGambler - Posted - 06/17/2016:  14:53:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tobus

 

So it seems I have two options.  Either shift gears and go to an index lead where called for, then switch back to thumb lead somewhere convenient (since the strokes will be backwards), or just adopt what you describe as the "little birdie" to allow the use of the index finger as a lead without necessarily changing the entire pattern.  That does make a lot of sense, but I imagine it would be difficult to do at speed.  It's good food for thought, though, and I'm definitely going to try it out and see if it opens up some areas where I've been struggling.  Thanks for that!

 

---

The other option as I see it is to play the first string notes further up on the second string and keep the first string drone going. That's the approach I used depending on the piece.

banjo bill-e - Posted - 06/17/2016:  15:11:30

What Pete said. I sometimes play the "first string notes" on the second string just a few frets higher, often keeping the first string going as a drone. Other times I shift to picking with index. It all depends upon how the melody fits with the rhythm, as you never want to break your rhythm.

But do realize that this is very much a make it up yourself folk style here, so there is no "official method". This is a "whatever works" style so find what works for you and steal ideas from anyone whose playing you like.

DonH60 - Posted - 06/22/2016:  07:32:54

Regarding Thumb Lead 2-finger there are two different styles (that I am aware of). One is the TITI "roll" while the other style is Thumb-Index-Thumb (spelled out for obvious reason) or bum-ditty. My first love is clawhammer but I struggle for proficiency at it and after deciding at this time of my life I would rather be playing than struggling to learn I turned to 2-finger, first TITI then the bum-ditty. I find myself mixing the two styles occasionlly.

I have noticed on Youtube, some of Clifton Hicks' videos are in 2-finger style.

stevel - Posted - 06/22/2016:  08:37:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by DonH60

 

Regarding Thumb Lead 2-finger there are two different styles (that I am aware of). One is the TITI "roll" while the other style is Thumb-Index-Thumb (spelled out for obvious reason) or bum-ditty. My first love is clawhammer but I struggle for proficiency at it and after deciding at this time of my life I would rather be playing than struggling to learn I turned to 2-finger, first TITI then the bum-ditty. I find myself mixing the two styles occasionlly.

I have noticed on Youtube, some of Clifton Hicks' videos are in 2-finger style.

---

 Actually, thumb lead is thumb lead, regardless if you're playing 1/8 or 1/4 notes.  Probably my favorite filler sequence is the 4 1/8 notes (TITI) followed by two 1/4 notes (T - Pinch ) [pinch = 1st and 5th string at the same time].

banjo bill-e - Posted - 06/23/2016:  08:47:52

My TL "bum-ditty" is not Thumb -Index Thumb but rather Thumb-Thumb Index.

DonH60 - Posted - 06/23/2016:  08:58:14

---

 Actually, thumb lead is thumb lead, regardless if you're playing 1/8 or 1/4 notes.  Probably my favorite filler sequence is the 4 1/8 notes (TITI) followed by two 1/4 notes (T - Pinch ) [pinch = 1st and 5th string at the same time].

 

---

You are correct; thumb-lead is thumb-lead but the sound is distinctly different.

stevel - Posted - 06/23/2016:  10:57:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjo bill-e

 

My TL "bum-ditty" is not Thumb -Index Thumb but rather Thumb-Thumb Index.

---

 i concur.  missed that the first time around.  while it can be done, it would be a bit more awkward not following a normal thumb lead pattern.  but i'm sure a bunch of old-timers did it that way anyway, and i'm sure they found a way to make it sound great.