Chris Yohn - Posted - 01/09/2016:  21:31:40

I'm attempting to install a skin head on an Eastman Whyte Laydie. The tension hoop fits too tightly around the tone ring to accept the extra thickness of the skin as compared to the usual plastic head. It's a thin, high-quality calf skin head. I've seen these banjos with skin heads installed and wasn't anticipating this problem. After about 2 hours messing with it, I've come to the conclusion that I won't be able to install this head by hand. I realize that many banjos - especially vintage banjos from which this was modeled - have minimal tension hoop clearance so this problem is not unique to this instrument. Whatever the case, if anyone has advice for how to move forward with this installation before I give up and reinstall my plastic head, I sure would appreciate it. Thanks! 

oldtimefolkie - Posted - 01/09/2016:  21:56:13

Hello there Chris,

I had the same issue recently on an old Gretsch 5 string. It has a very snug fitting tension hoop. I had a "thin" goat skin head from Elderly that I tried and tried to mount. Just wasn't happening. I got my caliper out and found it to be about 0.020" thick. Then I found some nice thinner ones from Bob Smakula. He sent me one that was 0.006" thick! This worked like a charm, mounted it yesterday! I suggest you take a similar route and save this head for another banjo.

jbalch - Posted - 01/10/2016:  03:43:22

Tight fitting tension hoop is a thorny problem.  I have encountered it too many times.  The tolerances on banjo hardware are NOT precise.  The same is true for vintage and modern parts.

A thinner hide will help.  But I don't like using anything thinner than .010 or .012 in.  I find really thin hides to be unreliable and too easy to break.  

good luck with it!

John_J - Posted - 01/10/2016:  06:13:22

I had pretty much exactly the same problem on an SS Stewart....   After much investigation I found that the tension hoop (and the pot) were out of round by just a few thousands of an inch....   Therefore the hoop could only be installed in one position.....

I took the banjo to Richie Dotson who marked both the hoop and the pot so he could line it up correctly and installed a new head for me in three shakes of a lambs tail....  JJ

oldtimefolkie - Posted - 01/10/2016:  06:34:53

Do you have a caliper to measure your hide thickness? Or maybe you could approximate it by comparing with a auto feeler gauge to see where you stand. Then order a thinning one, down to what John suggests. The comments about alignment of an out of round tension hoop are right on as well!

Warren

Chris Yohn - Posted - 01/10/2016:  07:36:21

Thanks for the information. The tension hoop is not out of round. When I place it over the tone ring without a head attached and inspect visually, there is almost no wiggle room between the two parts. Indeed, the clearance is so minimal that I'm surprised it accommodates the renaissance head. The clearance is obviously the problem. I'll check the thickness of my current hide with calipers but I doubt even the thinnest piece will fit in there and I don't want to throw away good money after bad.

jbalch - Posted - 01/10/2016:  07:42:38

Out of round is extremely common on vintage pots. There is usually one BEST position where the hoop & rim line up.  It is advisable to find that orientation and mark it for best results when mounting a new head.  But that only works with grooved tension hoops or those that don't have a neck notch that must align with the heel.

Notched tension hoops and those which are cut-out for string clearance at the neck - must align in one specific orientation.  So if the hoop or rim is out-of-round you can be out of luck.  

I have really gotten myself in a pickle once or twice trying to mount heads for folks where the hardware is too tight & not round.  So far (knock on wood) I only failed once.  But  several other times I have ruined some nice hides and come very close to giving up.

One thing that can help is to locate a few extra long tension hooks.  Longer hooks allow you to set them in place around the tension hoop while it is sitting up high above the tone ring.  Then you can use the hooks to slowly pull it down - evenly all around the rim.  You don't need a complet set - just eight or ten to space them evenly around the pot.

Another solution is to replace the tension hoop with one that fits better. 

If possible, It is best to pre-mount the head on a rim with good fitting hardware (exact match to the one you want to replace).  Once the head is mounted and cured, it will transfer to the tight-fitting rim just like a plastic head would.  Obviously, this is a problem if you don't have access to a matching size rim.  Those Eastman Whyte Laydies are smaller than 11" (10 7/8" I think).  So you would need another Eastman rim to make a good pre-mount. 

Chris Yohn - Posted - 01/10/2016:  08:26:30

Let's say I manage to buy a 0.010 inch thin hide. The hide will wrap around the flesh hoop and go back up between the tension hoop and the tone ring, so I need enough clearance for 0.020 inches (I realize this thickness may become smaller as the head is stretched). Renaissance heads fit on this banjo. I don't have a caliper handy right now but am wondering about the thickness of renaissance heads. If I can't purchase a hide that with a comparable thickness, I probably won't take my chances.

I'll ask Bernunzio about this as well. Perhaps they can pre-stretch a head in their shop.

It would be nice to install a good hide head on this banjo but it's not a big deal if I am unable to do so.

Bart Veerman - Posted - 01/10/2016:  08:54:40

Some, like S.S. Stewarts, are wickedly tight for sure. Premounting the head on the rim works out pretty good using hose clamps.

Get five 8 inch hose clamps and string them together to make one big one

• soak the head and drape it over the rim


• put the flesh hoop over it


• fold the head over the flesh hoop


• make the biggie hose clamp diameter just big enough to fit over the folded head


• the top of the biggie clamp should be flush with the top of the rim for proper crown height


• You now have 5 adjustable pressure points around the head to snug it up to equal thickness all the way around


• Tighten the clamp until the head is squished real thin but watch out: too tight can easily crush the rim

The slits in the clamp(s) see to it that drying is not a problem, might take a day though. Voila, a premounted head that's as thin as it gets where it counts: between the rim & the tension hoop

Chris Yohn - Posted - 01/10/2016:  12:21:08

Bart,

I had some hose clamps sitting around so I tried your idea. It's working fine so far. Will let everyone know if the clamps managed to thin the hide enough to slide the tension hoop over it.

Thanks!

Viper - Posted - 01/12/2016:  07:38:20

Hey Chris, 

Did  you manage to get the skin head to work? 

Bart Veerman - Posted - 01/12/2016:  12:05:31

I had to take some pictures today anyway so here's the biggie clamp I made some while ago. This one has only 3 pressure points, five or six would be better to distribute the pressure more evenly.

I came up with this idea to mount  a hide head on an impossible Lady Stewart. I'm sure you can appreciate how this approach would make things a whole lot easier.

Chris Yohn - Posted - 01/13/2016:  17:32:15

The hose clamp idea does what it is supposed to do: The hide was noticeably thinner where it counts. The slits in the clamps made indentations in the hide, which I carefully sanded away with little effort.

If my banjo were an ordinary banjo, this would have worked like a charm. But the tension hoop is so damn tight over the tone ring that even the hose clamps couldn't make the hide thin enough. Banjo 1 Chris 0. For the time being, the renaissance head is back on there.

If anyone reads this thread and attempts this idea, make sure you have a friend hold down the clamp as you tighten it around the rim, or else it will slip right off. Also, once the clamp is tightened, keep it in place with a few tension hooks.

Again, I bet this would work the vast majority of the time for banjos with tight tension hoops.

XXXris - Posted - 01/13/2016:  19:36:57

I wonder if there is any way you could have the skin head pass under the tension hoop, and around the flesh hoop as usual, but then adhere it to the flesh hoop (so that it doesn't have to pass up through the tension hoop a second time)?

Sounds like a nice banjo; maybe you could have a duplicate tension hoop made?

oldtimefolkie - Posted - 01/13/2016:  21:21:58

Try a thinner head once you measure the Renaissance head thickness.