DbBanjo - Posted - 08/11/2015:  10:55:59

Howdy,

  I was talking with some old music friends the other week & we were posing a question about the 'East Virginia Blues'.  It seems there is a standard version which is played by a Lot of bg bands which has: 1. Trio vocals throughout the tune & 2. Up tempo speed (not a breakneck speed, but a 'brisk' pace).  In talking we came up with the question: which band did this first version in this manner: was it J. D. Crowe (either Kentucky Mountain Boys or New South) or The Country Gentlemen (early group with Eddie Adcock, John Duffy, Tom Gray & Charlie Waller)?     I seem to recall the Stanley Brothers doing their version, but I think they were doing a duo vocal (only) ...

  I'm thinking it's the Country Gentlemen, but, Lol - I'm not entirely sure ...

             DbBanjo (Marc Bolen)

Edited by - DbBanjo on 08/11/2015 10:57:14

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 08/11/2015:  12:58:53

I guess you never heard of The Carter Family.

Jim D - Posted - 08/11/2015:  13:04:41

gasp... are you suggesting that their was banjo life before bluegrass? Heresy!


Jim

Ebanjo - Posted - 08/11/2015:  13:31:22

Marc, J.D. was the first I ever heard do it at brisk pace. I even heard a live version of him playing it when he had Tony and Larry Rice in the band. The Country Gentlemen's version always seemed to be more of a medium tempo to me. Come to think of it, I think I have a live version of the Kentucky Mtn. Boys playing an up tempo version with Doyle Lawson on the mandolin and maybe Bob Morris (I think) on guitar from about 1969.
Eric Ellis

DbBanjo - Posted - 08/11/2015:  17:35:28

Howdy,

  Tony: Lol - I don't think the old ver. by the Carters quite qualifies as 'up tempo' ...  But I do agree they are probably the 1st to record this tune with the lyrics we mostly use today.  Did they use trio vocals all through the tune?  I don't recall ...

  Eric: Yes, I believe I agree with you: The Gentlemen's version (in the 1960's) was a slower pace than the ver. we've come to know from Crowe.

               Thanks all,

                       DbBanjo (Marc Bolen)

quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

 

I guess you never heard of The Carter Family.

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dmiller - Posted - 08/11/2015:  20:17:42

"In talking we came up with the question: which band did this first version in this manner: was it J. D. Crowe (either Kentucky Mountain Boys or New South) or The Country Gentlemen (early group with Eddie Adcock, John Duffy, Tom Gray & Charlie Waller)?     I seem to recall the Stanley Brothers doing their version, but I think they were doing a duo vocal (only) ..."









 

DbBanjo - Posted - 08/12/2015:  07:21:11

Yep - that's the ver. by the Stanley's I remember: Duo vocal all the way through (I believe).

quote:

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Originally posted by dmiller

 

"In talking we came up with the question: which band did this first version in this manner: was it J. D. Crowe (either Kentucky Mountain Boys or New South) or The Country Gentlemen (early group with Eddie Adcock, John Duffy, Tom Gray & Charlie Waller)?     I seem to recall the Stanley Brothers doing their version, but I think they were doing a duo vocal (only) ..."









 

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1935tb-11 - Posted - 08/12/2015:  18:01:52

there are certain lines of this song that were sang in the civil war and were taken from the origins of old english/ irish ballads and adapted to the virginia carolina area,,, so i would say most likely the carters heard some old civil war vets singing a version of this and made it fit their style.

terry m

Edited by - 1935tb-11 on 08/12/2015 18:03:59

Richard Dress - Posted - 08/12/2015:  21:13:13

This song goes back to the settlement of Virginia in the early 17th century and is found in many closely related forms.  Cecil Sharp collected (1917) a version of it entitled "In Old Virginny" in Kentucky.  Kelly Harrell recorded a related version for Victor in 1926 as “O Molly Dear Go Ask Your Mother”, B. F. Shelton in 1927 for Victor as “Oh Molly Dear”, Buell Kazee for Brunswick in 1927 as “East Virginia”, B. F. Shelton for Victor in 1927 as “Oh Molly Dear”, Clarence (Tom) Ashley for Columbia in 1929 as "Dark Holler Blues", Clarence Ashley & Gwen Foster for Vocalion in 1933, and the Carter Family for Conqueror in 1935 as “East Virginia Blues, Number 2”.  The Carter Family originally recorded it for Bluebird in 1934 (Rounder Records reissued it for the 1998 Carter Family album Longing for Old Virginia: Their Complete Victor Recordings - 1934, Bear Family Records reissued it for the 2000 Carter Family album In the Shadow of Clinch Mountain, and JSP Records reissued it for the 2003 Carter Family box set Volume 2: 1935-1941).  Karl & Harty recorded it for Conqueror/ARC in 1936 as “Darling Think of What You Done” (Old Homestead Records reissued it for the 197? album Karl & Harty with the Cumberland Ridge Runners), Roy Acuff & His Crazy Tennesseans recorded it for ARC/Vocalion/Conqueror/Columbia/OKeh in 1936 as “New Greenback Dollar”, Alan Lomax collected a Walter Williams version in 1937 (Yazoo Records reissued it for the 2003 compilation Kentucky Mountain Music), the Blue Sky Boys recorded it for Bluebird in 1937 as “What Have You Done”, J. H. Howell’s Carolina Hillbillies recorded it for Bluebird in 1938 as “My Sweetheart Has Gone and Left Me”, Jack Hilliard & Leslie Palmer recorded it for Decca in 1938 as “Darlin’ Think What You Done”, and the Morris Brothers for Bluebird in 1938 as “Darling Think What You Have Done”.  Karl & Harty recorded it again for Melotone in 1953 as “Darling Think of What You Done”.  The Country Gentlemen released this version for their 1963 Design label album Hootenanny (Rebel Recording Company reissued it for the 1973 Country Gentlemen album Yesterday & Today, Volume II).  They recorded another version for their 1970 Rebel Recording Company album Live In Japan (Rebel Records reissued that album in 1994 under the same title).  The Country Gentlemen Pickwick International album Bluegrass Country also has a version of the song.  Bluegrass singles were released by the Earl Scruggs Review for Columbia, the Grass Strings for the McKee label, the Tennessee Boys for the Pine Tree label, Ralph Stanley for Jalyn Recording Company, the Virginia Mountain Boys for the Mastertone label, and Rusty York for the Bluegrass Special label.  Among others, Pete Steele, Roscoe Holcomb, Buell Kazee, Betty Garland, Logan English, the Stanley Brothers, Flatt & Scruggs, the Bluegrass Alliance, Red Cravens & the Bray Brothers, Earl Taylor, Mac Wiseman, the McLain Family Band, Mike Seeger, the Kentucky Ramblers, the Muddy River Boys, Outdoor Plumbing Company, Bluegrass Gentlemen, Walter Hensley, High Country, Bill Clifton, Alvin Breeden, Lily May Ledford (a founding member of the original Coon Creek Girls), J. D. Crowe, Ralph Stanley and Kathy Kallick all released versions.  Also, David Alvin released it for his 2000 Hightone label album Public Domain: Songs from the Wild Land, Wayne Erbsen for his 2001 Native Ground Music album Log Cabin Songs, and the Stanley Brothers (recorded live in 1956) for their 2004 Sony album An Evening Long Ago.

RioStat - Posted - 08/13/2015:  07:55:49

quote:

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Originally posted by dmiller

 

"In talking we came up with the question: which band did this first version in this manner: was it J. D. Crowe (either Kentucky Mountain Boys or New South) or The Country Gentlemen (early group with Eddie Adcock, John Duffy, Tom Gray & Charlie Waller)?     I seem to recall the Stanley Brothers doing their version, but I think they were doing a duo vocal (only) ..."









 

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What's that banjo Ralph's holding?

Bowtie inlays, double cut headstock, "mystery" inlay in the headstock?

And a flathead??

Edited by - RioStat on 08/13/2015 07:57:12

DbBanjo - Posted - 08/13/2015:  15:31:57

Howdy,

  Richard: this is some impressive research - my compliments!

                     DbBanjo (Marc Bolen)

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 08/13/2015:  16:04:16

I think the Stanley's was the only bluegrass recording I ever heard in my day - although every local bluegrass band played it, usually in a close arrangement to the Stanleys - and usually introduced it as a Stanley Bros tune since they tended to be unaware of the Carter Family, save as something to do with Johnny Cash's main squeeze.

Scaggs7 - Posted - 08/13/2015:  19:12:30

Why didn't Ralph thane a banjo break

DbBanjo - Posted - 08/14/2015:  17:20:03

Howdy,

  Good question, IMO.   We'll probably never know for sure why Ralph didn't kick the tune off or take a break.  Reasons?  1. It's a live recording & perhaps Ralph might have been trying to quickly tune so Carter just wanted to keep the show moving quickly along by started the tune along with rhythm or 2. A LOT of bands back then were in the habit of trying to keep tunes from going over the magic 'three min' time limit, so they left the banjo break out ...  I only suggest these ideas because these are reasons which have been my experience from past live shows (especially back in the 1970's with the 3-min time limit idea).

                 DbBanjo (Marc Bolen)

quote:

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Originally posted by Scaggs7



Why didn't Ralph thane a banjo break

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The Old Timer - Posted - 08/14/2015:  19:50:13

I believe this song was one of Ralph's specialties, where he finger picked the mandolin, at least on live shows. Do I remember this right or was that another song? One reason he might not have taken a banjo break is that Carter and he sang this in a key below G, like F or D as I remember with the finger picked mandolin.

I remember about 1970-71 when the Gents opened every set with East Virginia Blues. They basically had Set A and Set B at that time and would repeat them through a festival weekend. It got to be a joke. I learned it from the Gents about that time, at least to perform. I'd heard it before, from some of those many old time recordings that were so nicely listed by Richard Dress.

Now as to the banjo Ralph is holding in the photo, I HOPE SOMEONE WILL IDENTIFY IT! It's the same banjo on the red LP where they're sitting with their backs against hay bales and their argyle socks showing. I SWEAR when I was a kid the Gibson catalog showed that neck/peghead for the RB 500 one year (early 60s). I've never seen one in real life. Ralph has said in his book he had "an old flat head 6". The other puzzling thing about this banjo is the resonator thumbscrews go through holes in the flange like the 1925 ball bearing Mastertone construction, not with the L tabs sitting beneath big holes in the flange. So what is it, someone PLEASE???? I always presumed Ralph got a Gibson factory RB 500 neck for some 4 string pot he bought. Would love to know the truth.

DbBanjo - Posted - 08/15/2015:  15:03:45

Howdy Dick,

  I hear what you're saying, but the banjo backup sure sounds like Ralph's playing (& since it's a live show, someone else is probably taking the mando. break).  And I agree with you on the key: to my ear (based on standard tuning), it does sound like they're doing this in 'F', so Ralph might just have decided to not take a break in this particular key ...   Honestly, the mando. break sounds like Curly Lambert's playing to me (at least from what I remember of his playing from my time with Charlie Moore).                   

  I can't help you on the Gibson in the picture: Either Lynwood Lunsford or Richie Dotson could probably help with this ...

                      DbBanjo (Marc Bolen)

quote:

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Originally posted by The Old Timer

I believe this song was one of Ralph's specialties, where he finger picked the mandolin, at least on live shows. Do I remember this right or was that another song? One reason he might not have taken a banjo break is that Carter and he sang this in a key below G, like F or D as I remember with the finger picked mandolin.



I remember about 1970-71 when the Gents opened every set with East Virginia Blues. They basically had Set A and Set B at that time and would repeat them through a festival weekend. It got to be a joke. I learned it from the Gents about that time, at least to perform. I'd heard it before, from some of those many old time recordings that were so nicely listed by Richard Dress.



Now as to the banjo Ralph is holding in the photo, I HOPE SOMEONE WILL IDENTIFY IT! It's the same banjo on the red LP where they're sitting with their backs against hay bales and their argyle socks showing. I SWEAR when I was a kid the Gibson catalog showed that neck/peghead for the RB 500 one year (early 60s). I've never seen one in real life. Ralph has said in his book he had "an old flat head 6". The other puzzling thing about this banjo is the resonator thumbscrews go through holes in the flange like the 1925 ball bearing Mastertone construction, not with the L tabs sitting beneath big holes in the flange. So what is it, someone PLEASE???? I always presumed Ralph got a Gibson factory RB 500 neck for some 4 string pot he bought. Would love to know the truth.

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Edited by - DbBanjo on 08/15/2015 15:04:26

vincekinney - Posted - 08/16/2015:  08:40:33

Rio,Old Timer
Great minds think alike, my eye went to the headstock inlay right away !