Starter - Posted - 05/26/2015:  18:51:17

Hi all,

I've heard so much about Clifftop that I think I might give it a try this summer.  I've found a couple of videos, and some of the discussions on this forum, but I still have questions.

1.  What's all this about getting there on the Friday before the Wednesday?  What do you do in all that time?

2.  Are there actual performances other than the competitions?  The published schedule looks pretty thin.

3.  Are there any obvious places to stay for non-campers.   I have my tent, but my mandolinist wants a proper roof over her head.

4.  Is there any way to find a "newbies welcome" jam?  I'm happy to watch great players play, but I'd like to try playing some as well.

5.  Is it ok to stray beyond old-time in a jam?  Our OT repertoire is pretty limited, but I assume "Wagon Wheel" or "Fort Worth Blues" would be unwelcome?

Many thanks,

Will

Edited by - raharris on 05/27/2015 10:45:35

floridaNelson - Posted - 05/26/2015:  19:25:06

Last year I saw someone watching a jam just start singing Wagon Wheel expecting the players to join in. They starred at her like there was something crawling on her face for about 20 seconds. They finally did play it though, and did enjoy it even if they wouldnt admit it.

EggerRidgeBoy - Posted - 05/26/2015:  22:04:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by Starter

Hi all,

I've heard so much about Clifftop that I think I might give it a try this summer.  I've found a couple of videos, and some of the discussions on this forum, but I still have questions.

1.  What's all this about getting there on the Friday before the Wednesday?  What do you do in all that time?

2.  Are there actual performances other than the competitions?  The published schedule looks pretty thin.

3.  Are there any obvious places to stay for non-campers.   I have my tent, but my mandolinist wants a proper roof over her head.

4.  Is there any way to find a "newbies welcome" jam?  I'm happy to watch great players play, but I'd like to try playing some as well.

5.  Is it ok to stray beyond old-time in a jam?  Our OT repertoire is pretty limited, but I assume "Wagon Wheel" or "Fort Worth Blues" would be unwelcome?

Many thanks,

Will

---

1)  You jam.  And visit.  A lot of folks who get there several days early are regulars who have been attending Clifftop for many years.  For them the festival is as much about getting together with old friends to play music as it is the officially scheduled events (a few people actually leave once the festival begins).  But of course a lot of newer attendees show up early, too.  It is a great time to meet people and get welcomed into the Clifftop community. It is less crowded the first few "pre-festival" days, and the atmosphere is a bit more low-key.

2) Clifftop is not a stage performance-oriented festival.  Other than the competitions - which run pretty much all day - there are the afternoon "Masters" concerts, shows by one or two of the previous year's band winners, and once in a while a special evening concert by a noted old-time musician or group (my first year the New Lost City Ramblers played one of their final shows at Clifftop).  And there are nightly square dances, often with a well-known stringband supplying the music. But the focus is really on jamming in the campground.

3) As far as I know there are no motels in the immediate vicinity.  Babcock State Park, which borders Camp Washington-Carver, does have 28 cabins of various sizes available for rent. There are motels in (relatively) nearby Fayetteville.

4) I don't know of any recognized system for identifying "newbie friendly" jams.  Most people at the festival are pretty friendly - I would just ask the people camping near you, or anybody you meet and talk to. Specifically, I would suggest seeking out Hillarie Burhans and "Burhania" - you should find a warm welcome (and good food) there, and most likely several other newbies.

5) There are certainly jams that stray beyond

Edited by - EggerRidgeBoy on 05/26/2015 22:16:13

EggerRidgeBoy - Posted - 05/26/2015:  22:22:30

5) There are certainly jams that stray beyond the standard old-time fiddle tune repertoire. Just listen for them as you wander through the campground. The "Cajun Tent" down at the low end of the festival grounds will feature (not surprisingly) Cajun music, and a lot of other stuff. There are "folk" jams (i.e. 60's style singer-songwriter folk music), acoustic blues jams, jazz-ish jams (last year I came across a stringband with a saxophone, playing prewar jazz and pop music), and so on and so on. Probably 90% of what you hear will be fiddle-and-banjo-oriented traditional stringband music, but there is certainly room for other music (as long as it is acoustic). I get the feeling that "Wagon Wheel" itself has somewhat worn out its welcome over the past few years, but that is more about that specific song - you should certainly be able to find people playing modern, rock-and-pop influenced stringband music.

And of course, you and your mandolinist - and anybody else coming with you - can always just start your own jam, playing your kind of music, and let like-minded people come to you.

Edited by - EggerRidgeBoy on 05/26/2015 22:39:31

banjopogo - Posted - 05/27/2015:  01:16:01

From what I've heard,  Clifftop has gotten popular enough now that lines form in front of IMPORTANT FACILITIES.... while you're running across the campground to get in line, who knows how many people got in line ahead of you.  Extra discomfort,  and standing in the sun (and maybe rain) while you could be under an awning JAMMING.  That would be TRIPLE TORTURE!  Getting there early means you get  to set up closer to the IMPORTANT FACILITIES, so you can get in line quicker, spend less time in lines,  and can get back to fun stuff like jamming quicker.

  Also..... probably a good idea to bring your OWN portable awning:

I hear- and see in many of the videos that it often rains at Clifftop- mountains often have more interesting and changeable weather than flatlands.... with an awning, you can be jamming under the awning instead of huddled in a tent!  And, you can play the hosts to other like-minded musicians, and people who didn't bring an awning.  Getting there early means you are guaranteed space to put up your awning.  Chairs or at least stools or sturdy ice chests are good too.

You might get as much Old Time as you can handle closer to home, although later in the season.

I've heard really good things about the festival at Lake Genero:

sacrasoft.com/Genero/About.html    It's mostly Old Time.  Probably a lot of the flavor of Clifftop without as many people and LINES.  Probably more Pennsylvania musicians you could network with, too.

You probably know about the Brandywine Folk Festival:

facebook.com/Brandywinefolkfes...p;theater

Definitely gonna be a more "anything goes" scene.  Don't know how much jamming goes on, though.

EggerRidgeBoy - Posted - 05/27/2015:  01:35:04

At peak times - mid-morning,say - there is often a wait for the showers. But that is not a big deal (I just go at non-peak times), and I am not aware of lines for any other IMPORTANT FACILITIES, whatever those might be. I mean, you might have a few people ahead of you at one of the food vendors, but that is true anywhere.


An awning or screened enclosure is a good idea - it will provide a comfortable place to jam and hang out. If you are at the festival for several days, you are likely to encounter some rain. If you set up your camp (RV,tents,tarps,awnings,etc.) along one of the paths that wind through the campground you will probably get lots of people stopping by to listen to your jam, and possibly join in if you appear at all welcoming.


The upper (main) campground is usually full by the official start of the festival (if you are creative, you might be able to find a spot to squeeze in a small tent). There is a field for RVs, with the rest open only to tents. Generators are not allowed in the upper campground.


There is also camping at the bottom of the hill, around the parking areas. It is open to RVs and tents, and generators are allowed. They have carts that shuttle people up and down the hill, for those that don't want to walk.

Edited by - EggerRidgeBoy on 05/27/2015 01:38:35

EggerRidgeBoy - Posted - 05/27/2015:  02:01:29

The nearest motel is probably The Hillcrest, in Lookout, about ten miles from Camp Washington-Carver. After that would be The Midland Trail Motel in Ansted, approximately 20 miles away.  There are several more options in the Fayetteville area, which is also about 20 miles from the festival.

chip arnold - Posted - 05/27/2015:  06:27:09

Clifftop is intense. It's like total immersion. It's about so much more than just the music. Like Egger said, it's about people. Seeing old friends and making new friends. It's about sitting together under a tarp, talking till the wee hours. It's about walking around the different neighborhoods late at night and letting the pure magic of it all wash over you. It's about sharing a table at Burhania or in the dining hall, with complete strangers, and getting to know them. It's about being in close quarters with a few thousand strangers and yet, feeling a sense of kinship and community unlike anything the day to day "real world" has to offer. 

It is crowded. By Monday (or sooner, depending on where you camp) you'll be tripping over tent ropes, getting to your camp. There will be people jamming until all hours, right next to your tent. The food vendors won't set up 'till early in the week and they'll be expensive. When the dining hall in the Lodge gets started, it's open three times a day, and closed in between mealtimes. Everyone cooks most meals in their camps. (No open fires allowed). 

There are wonderful concerts in the lodge/dance room, by "visiting masters". There is usually a workshop or two in the little log cabin behind the vendors. There are dance workshops and always the big dances in the lodge. You don't have to dance to enjoy the energy of a dance this size! If you're lucky you'll get to see Doug Smith doing some of the rope tricks that made him a world champion. He always has a supply of small trick ropes for the kids. 



What Clifftop is not, is a place where people come with lawn chairs, to sit in front of a stage and be entertained. The contests go on, and on, and on. People wander in and out of the stage area as their friends compete. During the band competitions, there are folks who come from nearby towns as well as Babcock St. Park, to sit and listen. But understand, it's not a performance festival. It's about making music and sharing days and nights with kindred spirits. That's what makes it so magical. 

Jams are often receptive to you joining in, but also, often not. So it's a quick learning curve to determine which is which. A small jam, where the pickers are not looking up and making eye contact, is a private affair, between friends. A bigger "onion jam", with inner and outer layers of pickers, is almost always open. Folks in a jam may be so wrapped up in the moment, that they don't look up and acknowledge you. So wait till a tune is over and ask someone if you can join in. If you can carry your instrument without a case, it makes joining in a bit easier. There are usually open jams down by the lodge, too. Roger Sprung's camp has open jams. But, just walk around, watch, and listen. You'll find folks to play with. Above all, don't be afraid to ask. 

Even if you don't camp, you'll wish you had a spot of your own, with a canopy, chairs, cooler and other comforts. You can rest there and you can jam there, hopefully attracting others who'll want to pick with you. And you can escape any rain that may come. Mountain weather is what it is. I've been so hot at Clifftop, that I've nearly melted and I've been very cold at night. I've been parched and soaked. But Clifftop is not different from any other mountain place in the summer. 

Bathrooms are located all over the camp. Los of porta potties, as well as the big bathroom/shower facility below the lodge. I've never had to wait more than a minute or two for a bathroom. Ever. Showers can be busy, but earlier in the morning or around supper time are good. Also, late at night. Bring flip flops for the showers and surrender your sense of privacy at the door. The shower stalls are individual, but you'll be changing on benches, with others. You may hear stories about water shortages, but that hasn't been a real problem since major repairs and changes were done a couple of years ago.

Jams are (usually) led by the fiddler and he/she will call the tunes. Others will ask the fiddler if she/he will play such and so and if he/she knows the tune, it's likely to get played. An old time jam is not going to be receptive to Wagon Wheel, songs where the singer wants a sudden key change, or other things which break whatever groove the jam is in at the moment. 90% of jams have no singing at all. But ... there are wonderful singing jams, too. You just have to find them, and be prepared to change keys often.

Most important ... you WILL find folks to make music with. 

chip arnold - Posted - 05/27/2015:  06:37:07

Another thing ... Clifftop is clean! Unlike other sorts of festivals, everyone leaves the bathrooms neat and clean. You won't see any trash on the ground. Several thousand people are able to live together in a relatively small area and not make a mess. Driving out, after ten days of camping, you'll see a few very neat piles of broken camp chairs or trash bags, along the little lanes, waiting for the camp workers to pick them up. 

Ron Ortegel - Posted - 05/27/2015:  07:48:46

Chip,

How do you expect someone to hear how great Clifftop is when they are a million miles away and can't make it!

You're killin' me here with this!

But seriously, one of these times I'll be there.

And I believe you, when I get there I'll love it.

Ron

freddfish - Posted - 05/27/2015:  11:06:20

I like picking and learning from other folks that goes on at Clifftop, as well as all the new people one meets...but I think one of my greatest pleasures is just ambling around the site after dark, listening and enjoying. Plenty of that to do there, too.

chip arnold - Posted - 05/27/2015:  12:13:14

And we'll be sure to amble into each other at some point, too! See you there!

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 05/27/2015:  12:20:48

I live in West Virginia but somehow I never manage to make it.

Aristocratbanjoboy - Posted - 05/27/2015:  19:20:33

Clifftop is a wonderland. It is the Megacon for old time music but that alone is an understatement. You will find all kinds of music from traditional fiddle tunes, cajun, SOME bluegrass to train hoppers playing songs they all pass along. It's overwhelming. It's my dream. Whenever I get frustrated at work or am having a bad day I put myself at Clifftop. It restores my faith in humanity. From drinking moonshine with friends you just met or seeing old friends you made from previous years, you will feel right at home and never want to leave. Heck, I've even talked with a group late one night about quitting our jobs and just living in the park playing music for the rest of our lives. No matter where I am in the world I will make it to Clifftop. It's WORTH it.

tfaux - Posted - 05/28/2015:  06:53:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by chip arnold

Unlike other sorts of festivals, everyone leaves the bathrooms neat and clean. You won't see any trash on the ground. Several thousand people are able to live together in a relatively small area and not make a mess.  

---

Memory a few years ago of standing on line for the lower bathroom. The guy waiting in front of me was maybe 6'2" and 300 lbs, with long black beard, biker braid, tats, wallet on a chain, and a uke on a string. As the dude in the stall noisily finished it up the would-be Hells Angel muttered,"Man's wasting an awful lot of toilet paper."  Only at Clifftop.

David Moore - Posted - 05/29/2015:  06:11:25

I have friends here who have gone to Cliff Top a few times and they all say it is a great experience but the logistics are rather like Woodstock. I chose to go to Mars Hill last year instead of Cliff Top. Clean sheets, semi-private bathroom, fantastic food in the cafeteria and......great instructors in air-conditioned class rooms. But then I am not a young man and like my comforts.

chip arnold - Posted - 05/29/2015:  07:41:58

David, FWIW, the logistics are not at all like Woodstock. There are a lot of people, but things are organized, bathrooms are plentiful enough, there is shade, there are numerous sources of food ...

I've given workshops at Mars Hill several times and I agree, it's a wonderful place, but a comparison to Clifftop is apples and oranges. One is a picker's festival and the other is a teacher/student arrangement. They are two very different things. :-) If you're ready to play with others and share the music, without a structured schedule, you would probably have a ball at Clifftop or one of the many smaller festivals. 



If you're interested in coming to Clifftop, check out the clean sheet accommodations within a short drive of the festival. I don't know how old you are, but there are plenty of campers in their seventies at Clifftop. I lack only a year of being one of them, myself! 



Next week ... MT. AIRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

EggerRidgeBoy - Posted - 05/29/2015:  10:42:37

I'm not quite sure what all is encompassed by "logistics", but anyone comparing Clifftop to Woodstock has been sitting out in the sun at festivals a bit too long.  I mean, I was only six in 1969, but I've seen plenty of photos and read plenty of descriptions of Woodstock over the years, and it bears absolutely no resemblance to Clifftop. (My only actual memory of Woodstock is seeing photographs of the event in LIFE magazine a few weeks later, including one of naked festival-goers frolicking in the mud - I asked my dad why the people were naked, and, after a pause, he said that they had been outside all day and it was hot, so they took off their clothes to cool down.)

Clifftop is a clean, family-friendly, well organized and well run festival.  If it rains heavily, there can be a lot of mud, but I've yet to see any naked frolickers. Tent camping is not for everyone, and I can understand a desire for private bathrooms and clean sheets.  But the communal showers and bathrooms at Clifftop are clean, the campground is - by both rule and tradition - pretty well regulated, the vendors and the cafeteria provide plenty of good food, and the overall atmosphere is one of friendliness, sharing, and a love of the music. 

David Moore - Posted - 05/29/2015:  12:04:17

Chip and Egger thanks for the correction. Of course I was quoting friends and not from personal experience. Evidently the Woodstock comparison was a bit extreme. Thanks for the clarification guys.

OldPappy - Posted - 05/29/2015:  13:32:10

A couple who are friends of mine from Frametown WVa go to Clifftop every year.

Two of the nicest people I know, Ralph plays the fiddle, and Charlie loves to listen to music, and talk peoples ears off at the same time.

They camp in a small pop-up camper. She is in her late seventies, and I believe he is 86, but he is the youngest 86 year old I ever met, and judging by the pile of wood he had stacked in his woodshed last October, which he cut and split himself, he can work circles around most men half his age.

I don't attend too many festivals, and never have entered a competition at one, but may make it to this one next year. It would be fun just visiting with folk, and making new friends.

I think "Wagon Wheel" has been played to death at the festivals where it is popular. At the BOS festival last year (this year got rained out on Sunday), I heard that song so much, and often it would be coming from two different directions at the same time as different groups of people sang it from different parts of the town square. I think a lot of folks are tired of it, so maybe it will die off. I remember how "Fox on The Run" was played to death back in the 80s. I liked both songs the first 20 times I heard them, but after you hear the same thing hundreds of times it gets old.

Edited by - OldPappy on 05/29/2015 13:39:35

chip arnold - Posted - 05/29/2015:  13:32:14

David, you should come. Even if just for a day or two. Come visit us and we'll make you feel welcome :-)

chip arnold - Posted - 05/29/2015:  13:34:10

Andy, Charlie and Ralph camp just down the hill from me. What a delightful couple they are, too. Always the biggest, friendliest, most welcoming smiles at the Festival!

OldPappy - Posted - 05/29/2015:  14:11:23

Chip,

He don't know it yet, but I am finishing up a banjo for Ralph.  

I met them at Diller's place a few years ago, when Ralph was taking banjo lessons from Dwight. They left there and were going to Clifftop the next week. Later that day Charlie called saying she had left her coffee pot at Dwight's lodge, and needed it for camping. All the other students packed the coffee pot, and various other interesting items, some useful, some just for fun, into a big box, sort of like a "Care Package" which we then sent to her.

Dwight, me, and Matt Evans ( a music teacher at the Chattanooga Folk School) went over to visit with them last March. We had a sort of "Breaking Up Winter" party at Brown's Creek, complete with plenty of barbeque, the day before, and had put aside some smoked some meat to take with us to go along with all the great food we knew Charlie would cook. There was still two or three foot of snow on the ground around Marlinton when we left that morning, but it had melted over where they live, though it was still pretty muddy, and we had to park near the road, and walk up to the house packing in all that meat, a dog, and our instruments. There were three playing fiddle that day (Dwight, Matt, and Ralph), so the banjo player (me) was outnumbered 3 to 1.

I heard Ralph start playing "Sourwood Mountain" and started playing along, and his eyes just lit up. That was the first time Matt had met them, and he remarked later that they were the nicest people he had ever met, and I agree with him on that. Good, honest, kind people they certainly are.

Ralph is a relative of the Hammons, and knew all of them growing up. I believe Burl, Sherman, and Maggie were his cousins. His fiddle playing is more like Sherman's than Burl's, having that long bow "bite" to it.

jojo25 - Posted - 05/30/2015:  17:36:01

well...I have only been 2 CT about 6 times...but....I did witness a naked square dance down in the "swamp" one yr....and that same year heard...at a session...some talk of a naked session...it was real hot that yr....in more ways than one I guess...no...not woodstock...but it can get a bit wild at times and in certain spots

chip arnold - Posted - 06/04/2015:  15:42:35

BUMP ...

ScottK - Posted - 06/04/2015:  18:36:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ron Ortegel

How do you expect someone to hear how great Clifftop is when they are a million miles away and can't make it!

You're killin' me here with this! 

---

Hey Ron, Weiser is coming right up and it's just one state over for you.  It's not Clifftop, but there's lots of good picking and it gets all the extremes of heat and cold and rain that Chip described.  Even some really good wind sometimes, to boot. :-)  I'll be in Stickerville for a long weekend June18-23.  You should think about coming out.

And now back to your regularly scheduled Clifftop discussion...  :-)

Scott

Edited by - ScottK on 06/04/2015 18:39:44

Lee Mysliwiec - Posted - 06/13/2015:  05:32:21

It can get chilly at night at 2,500 feet... bring a blanket and a light sweater.. You won't regret it..

GrizClaw - Posted - 06/13/2015:  07:52:30

quote:Lee, I can't believe I hijacked your thread in the clawhammer section to ask a camping at Clifftop question when this great discussion was available. Talk about a senior moment....thanks Chip, for directing me over here.....great information!!!  Rick

---

Originally posted by Lee Mysliwiec

 

It can get chilly at night at 2,500 feet... bring a blanket and a light sweater.. You won't regret it..

---

Capos Music Store - Posted - 06/13/2015:  11:00:17

Can't wait... Always ready to shut down the booth and go jam!

Lee Mysliwiec - Posted - 06/13/2015:  13:21:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by maplevega

 

quote:Lee, I can't believe I hijacked your thread in the clawhammer section to ask a camping at Clifftop question when this great discussion was available. Talk about a senior moment....thanks Chip, for directing me over here.....great information!!!  Rick

---

Originally posted by Lee Mysliwiec



 

It can get chilly at night at 2,500 feet... bring a blanket and a light sweater.. You won't regret it..

 

---

Well, I'm glad SOMEBODY is keeping track of things..!!  

 

 

---

deanocraft - Posted - 07/07/2015:  09:17:19

Judy and I will be there. It is a really great festival and Chip pretty well summed it up. I'll be a banjo vendor starting on the 29th, so come by and play my banjos!.

Dean

mbuk06 - Posted - 07/07/2015:  09:34:23

I didn't see this thread before posting in the other one either...

This year I'll be in the US in July/August instead of June so will have the opportunity to get to Clifftop. It'll be my first time too. Frankly, I can't wait to catch up with friends and hear all that great music in one place. 

Don Borchelt - Posted - 07/08/2015:  10:15:58

Old Pappy wrote:  "Two of the nicest people I know, Ralph plays the fiddle, and Charlie loves to listen to music, and talk peoples ears off at the same time."

Amen to that, Pappy.  Ralph and Charlie are planning on coming again this year.  I love to talk the ears off people, too, and it's a relief to find someone else who loves to "chew the fat."

If all goes according to plan, I'll be waiting in line Friday morning.  Look for the Banjo Hell sign up on Geezer Hill, and come say hello and pick some tunes.

Edited by - Don Borchelt on 07/08/2015 10:16:23

OldPappy - Posted - 07/13/2015:  09:59:30

Don,

"Geezer Hill" sounds just like the kind of place I would fit in, but I won't be at Clifftop this time. Maybe next year.

We spent the 4th of July weekend "chewing the fat" with Charlie and Ralph. Charlie was already getting ready for Clifftop, I think it is something she really enjoys.

Ralph throws a mean game of horseshoes, and he beat me like a rug.

Somehow we got to talking about wild foods, and he asked me if we have "Paw Paws" where I live.

According to my first wife's family we do, but I have never seen any, so Ralph took me across the road from his house and showed me half a dozen little trees with little green fruits. Too bad they aren't ripe until Fall, or I would finally have gotten to taste one.

banjobrewer - Posted - 07/16/2015:  18:15:36

Wife and I are really pondering it. A few questions...Is it camp where ever or are there "camp sites"? How inconvenient is it to go and explore the area on day trips...getting in and out? The web site said no alcohol...do a 1000 people get together and camp and play music for a week and not crack a beer at night...do the have folks storming tents for violating.

Itching to pull the trigger.

EggerRidgeBoy - Posted - 07/16/2015:  19:08:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjobrewer

 

Wife and I are really pondering it. A few questions...Is it camp where ever or are there "camp sites"? How inconvenient is it to go and explore the area on day trips...getting in and out? The web site said no alcohol...do a 1000 people get together and camp and play music for a week and not crack a beer at night...do the have folks storming tents for violating.



Itching to pull the trigger.

---

It is camp wherever you can - there are no official camp sites.  There is an area in the upper campground that is RV only - all other parts of the upper campground are open to trailers or tents, but unless you get there early on it will be hard to find a space large enough for anything but a tent.  No generators are allowed in the upper campground.

The lower campground - around the day parking area - is open to RVs and tents, and generators are allowed.

Unless you pick your parking spot carefully, you can sometimes get "parked in" in the most crowded areas of the upper campground, but a heads up to your neighbors can usually prevent that - just let folks know that you need to drive out at a certain time.  It shouldn't be a big worry, and with a little planning you should be able to avoid any problems.

By West Virginia state law, no alcohol is permitted at Camp Washington Carver.  That rule is ignored and flouted so routinely and so openly that I assume the powers-that-be just decide to turn a blind eye to alcohol use during the festival (I keep hearing rumors that they are going to crack down "next year", but it hasn't happened yet). 

Go ahead - pull that trigger!

Edited by - EggerRidgeBoy on 07/16/2015 19:21:29

banjobrewer - Posted - 07/17/2015:  19:46:59

Pulled it!