BDCA - Posted - 01/21/2015:  16:24:41

Michael, I don't use a 5 string for ITM. I get exactly the sound I want from my tenors by carefully setting up the head, tailpiece/bridge combination. Both bluegrass and ITM banjos have a narrow range of desirable tone. OT is all over the place. The lemmings are all the No Knot fan boys...

If you read my initial post, you see that I realized the flaws of the no knot when I change the head crown depth and found that I lost a lot of tone. When I installed an adjustable I was able to bring the strings to both equal and below the original string break depth and it sounded like a new instrument. Almost the exact OLD TIME sound I was looking for. If I hadn't made the switch, I probably would have gravitated to one of my other banjos and but this one back on the rack. Now it's my best sounding instrument for OT.

My next experiment will be to replace the Renaissance head on my 11" Electric Ramsey and install a Waverly.

Funny, I have spent hours and hours experimenting with tenor set ups but not with the 5 strings..

Cya!

Bob

OldPappy - Posted - 01/21/2015:  19:11:46

Michael,

You are the one who said  " I can play clawhammer on my Neckville phantom and it sounds great", so why ask me to define something you already have defined. It is like asking me to define the color Green.

You didn't tell me if Wade Ward, Dwight Diller, or Grandpa Jones sounded "OT" enough to you, even though they chose instruments that don't fit your apparent idea of what an "OT" banjo should be.

Never heard of a "Neckville" banjo, I assume it must be something new, so you probably shouldn't be caught playing clawhammer on it, probably never live that down.

BTW putting a No-Knot on a Goodtime has nothing to do with the authenticity you allude to, because that isn't what that banjo came with, but if you like it that is all that matters, and if you will send me the adjustable tailpiece it came with I will be glad to send you two No-Knots, one for your Neckville, and another for the other banjo you mentioned.

alubin - Posted - 01/22/2015:  14:05:09

Just ordered a Kershner from StewMac; should be here next week. I'm really looking forward to trying it out! 

BDCA - Posted - 01/22/2015:  14:45:50

I just changed from a Rennaissance to a Fyberskin on my Ramsey Electric. I then replaced the no knot with a Waverly and what a difference. I originally removed the Fyberskin it had when I bought it because it sounded dead,  The Renaissance helped but it still sounded harsh. It now sounds great! It's like a different banjo. Its a Whyte Laydie so it's not going to sound like a skin hide and no tone ring. It's got volume and tone and the tone ring is doing  it's job.

No more No Knots for this boy..

Cya!

Bob

Cottonmouth - Posted - 01/22/2015:  18:54:53

Bob, In my banjo head experimenting, Fiberskyn has worked well for me in the past. Many players don't care for it, but I've found that it really needs to be tightened over a couple of days to be at its best. By the way, the few banjos I own, all have Kershner tailpieces, simply because of our weather conditions. As you experienced on your visit here overlooking Mobile Bay, the humidity can be stifling. The Kershner makes it easy to adjust string pressure on a moisture affected hide head. I think I hear McSharry's calling your name!

BDCA - Posted - 01/22/2015:  19:24:46

I am quite please with the Fiberskyn and the Waverly. It's a combination I have not used before today. I generally crank my Renaissance heads to 94 on my Irish tenors but I'm going to slowly crank it up from 90 and see where I get the best tone.

I'll miss my visits to Mobile. My son graduated last year and moved back to Orlando where he is now working as a PA in a pediatric practice. He is only a few miles from the Claddah Cottage which is very much like McSharry's I was ther elast week.

Give my best to the folks at the pub next time you are there.

 BTW I spent some time deciding which tail piece to use on the Ramsey. The problem is that most adjustables seem to be designed for resonator banjos and due to the shallower rim I found that some would not fit properly. On my 12" I had to unscrew the lag bolt in the dowel about 1/2 inch and add a few washers to extend the end bracket so it would sit under the tailpiece bolt with out an extreme angle. One very well made tailpiece would not fit at all as the shelf that holds the attachment bold was almost touching the bracket but not aligned and it would have involved another lag screw / washer fix. It seemed to weigh as much as the banjo..

Cya!

Bob

Edited by - BDCA on 01/22/2015 19:30:45

mipake - Posted - 01/22/2015:  20:25:07

Old pappy you convinced me.   Old time is a meaningless term except in that it is a playing style.  You can play it on any banjo you want with any setup.  Resonator or open back.   So i think we can agree on that.   All the advice about setup should only be about tone.  The tonal qualities that set up imparts has nothing to do with the style of play as long as the banjo sounds good to us.  I don't set up for old time or bluegrass.  I set up for how I want my banjo to sound.   I am good with that.

thanks I am much less confused.

Mike 

OldPappy - Posted - 01/23/2015:  05:57:16

Actually "Old Time" is simply a genre of music which encompasses many different styles of banjo playing, and a number of other instruments besides banjos. It is not a meaningless term as it "defines" homegrown music, old fiddle tunes, and dance tunes as a separate genre from bluegrass music which is performance music born on the stage. Both are entertainment, but "OT" is more of an interactive form, than a performance.

Also, "Clawhammer" is only one, of many playing "styles" used in playing "OT" music on a banjo, but it isn't limited to only playing "OT", some folks play Rock and Roll with it, and I have even heard some play Beethoven. The word "Clawhammer" is used to cover a wide range of playing styles that were often called something else a few years back, such as "Thumping", "Rapping", and "Frailing".

The below is my opinion, anyone can take it or leave it, and it doesn't matter to me who agrees, or doesn't.

I think it is always a mistake to attempt to place this music into narrow margins. It has grown and evolved, and continues to grow and evolve, from a vast number of individual contributors across centuries. To be alive the music must pass from one generation to the next. While it is very important to listen to, study, and learn from the players of the past, when one's focus centers on trying to emulate their music, or in trying to sound just like their favorite player from the past, it takes the life right out of the music, and no matter how technically perfect their playing is, the music just drops down dead at their feet. Real music comes from inside a person, and it has to be that way to have any spirit, to remain alive.

When it is merely a copy of what someone else did, it is a dead thing, robbed of it's original spirit, devoid of anything new.

BDCA - Posted - 01/23/2015:  06:30:34

When it is merely a copy of what someone else did, it is a dead thing, robbed of it's original spirit, devoid of anything new. That also goes for Irish music as well and the music stand crowd.

Old Pappy nailed it! IMHO Old Time is based on Appalachian String Band Music but also encompasses New England and Canadian variations as well.Cajun doesn't quite make it into the fold. It's also based on fiddle tunes and the fiddle is generally, but not always, the primary instrument and includes an open back banjo, played via claw hammer or 2 or 3 finger picking but not Scrugges style. There is often a bass fiddle or wash tub bass, no dobros, and rarely a mandolin. If there is it's playing the melody along with the fiddle.

Vocals are often non existent or incidental to the tune and rarely contain any harmonies. As Pappy said, it's participation music that sometimes gets performed. Many of the tunes we play preceded the Bluegrass genre. But many are contemporary. I like to think that Irish Traditional music morphed into old time in the 1800s as did many of the English ballads.

Olt time is ear to define by what i's not..if it ain't bluegrass, it might could be old time.

I have been spending as much time as possible in North Carolina since I started back into old time music a 1 1/2 years ago. I used to play in the  60s listening to groups like The New Lost City Ramblers and staying and playing with folks like Obray Ramsey, Frank George , Clark Kessinger  and Bascome Lunsford as my New York City based bluegrass band toured the South. In those days the line between bluegrass and OT was blurred. What I have noticed, going to 3 or 4 jams a week in North Carolina when I am there, the typical OT musician is wearing Tevas, hiking shorts and Patagucci shirts while the guys at the bluegrass jams are wearing bib overalls and work boots.

It's a funny old world!

Cya!

Bob

Edited by - BDCA on 01/23/2015 06:32:44

mipake - Posted - 01/23/2015:  06:37:31

Old Pappy:
Now I almost totally agree with you. No one ever took anything forward by replicating the past. Earl did not try to replicate a sound he created his own. Funny so many only want to replicate him. I would say most new banjos being produced try to replicate past instruments. I certainly think anyone can and should change the set up on their banjo to suit them.

That said there are plenty of us who want to recreate the sounds produced by instruments never recorded. I have an old banjo which sports gut strings. The sound could be improved with different set up but I would like to hear it as it might have sounded 140 years ago. I do not think there is anything unreal or dead about that music. You can make music your own with different setups.

I think "modern Clawhammer" has room for both approaches.

MIke

Dan Drabek - Posted - 01/23/2015:  06:48:26

I believe old timey banjo, like flamenco guitar, was originally intended as an accompaniment to dancing. Much of modern flamenco has turned into an instrumental performance, where the audience is intended to sit and listen rather than get up and dance. Old timey music has in most cases done the same. Bluegrass, on the other hand,  was never developed as an accompaniment to dance, but has always been a straight performance.

DD

BDCA - Posted - 01/23/2015:  07:00:50

Old timey music has in most cases done the same.

Maybe in Santa Cruz but not he ein Tucson nor in North Carolina. ALL the performances I have done playing OT have been for Contra Dances and I suspect  the  pefomance bands like The Red Clay Ramblers or Big Medicine produce a very small fraction of the OT music played today. There is an excellent OT band in the Chapel Hill, The 5 Point Rounders,  area and they ONLY play square dances, though I am sure they'd sell out at Don Quixotes.

Cya!

Bob

OldPappy - Posted - 01/23/2015:  07:01:30

Bob,

As my avatar picture (taken at the BOS festival in Georgia) demonstrates, I often wear bib overalls, and work boots while playing a banjo, even when I venture out of Tennessee, but the old time police have left me alone so far.

Of course, fashion styles may be different on this side of the mountains than they are in NC, and people may tend to overlook  a 260 pound banjo player's fashion decisions.    

BDCA - Posted - 01/23/2015:  07:12:00

One of the jams in Durham requires removing one's shoes...but the music is excellent!

Make sure you bring a change of clothes when crossing the border  or you may get in trouble... The Old Time Police is a whole other thread!!

Cya!

Bob

Ohio Senator - Posted - 01/27/2015:  21:48:50

Still messing around on this topic with my new Reiter... if anyone has a Fielding and interested in trading or selling, let me know!

Tom Berghan - Posted - 01/29/2015:  21:28:00

Hi Bob,  I really liked reading about your experimentation with tailpieces.  I have been on a similar path just recently . . . but with my bluegrass banjo . . . haven't started experimenting with my clawhammer banjo . . . which currently has a No Knot.

Now . . . with what I am about say I may take this forum in a slightly different direction . . . but still on track . . . and this thread has gone on for three pages now so I hope my post will not be too much of a digression.

Now - There are two components . . . One, there is the tailpiece itself . . . . and Two, there is the mount, or, the hardware that secures the tailpiece. Now, I have recently come to detest all of the mounts that are long single bolts like in this photo, which is a Waverly, but so many tailpieces attach in exactly the same way.

The problem for me is that I have discovered that the single long bolt mount, despite its popularity over many decades, is very unstable and causes a lot of tuning problems.  I never realized this until I recently installed a very rigid and stable mount.  Banjo now stays in tune!  And the greater rigidity seems to add more fundamentals in the overtone series - a warmer darker sound - what I like.

On the other hand, there are several old time mounts that are very stable by comparison . . . such as this interesting old timer that I found browsing around on the web.  I have no idea what it is . . . nor how old it is or who made it.  But there are numerous old tailpieces I have seen that have much more rigid mounts than the long single bolt method.

Now . . . I have always liked the Presto tailpiece  . . . but again, there is that dang long bolt and the issue of instability.  But recently I have begun using the Fults XYZ mount with the Presto style tailpiece and I could not be happier.  (Pictured Below)  Totally stays in tune no matter what I do . . . D-Tuners - bending notes, etcetera.  I never realized how much trouble the traditional Presto was causing me.

I may try some experimentation with my clawhammer banjo, but I'm not sure what . . . meanwhile a No Knot is at least a very stable tailpiece because it rests squarely upon the tension hoop.  But I would like more weight and perhaps the ability to apply a bit more pressure on the bridge.

Edited by - Tom Berghan on 01/29/2015 21:30:12

BDCA - Posted - 01/29/2015:  22:39:37

First off that mystery banjo is an Open back  Clifford Essex. I havea 1919 Paragon and it uses the same tail piece. BTW there is a spring loaded cover which is often lost. As for the No Knot being stable. It may be stable in the vertical plane but NOT in the horizontal. I have noticed with ALL my No Knots, they are a PIA to change the tuning as you change one string, you change them all. This is a real advantage to the adjustable types which are stable horizontally and you can change keys much quicker that with a no knot.

As to a single long bolt being unstable, that has NOT been my experience ONCE THE STRINGS ARE UP TO TENSION. There is significant tension on the tail peice keeping it quite well fixed. In fact one tensioned, there's almost no need to keep the nut tightened as the TP isn't going to move. I can see the Faults is a more stable design on paper but my experience is that it isn't worth the weight and expense. I'd rather spend the money on an Oetinger type.

Cya!

Bob

arkred - Posted - 01/30/2015:  08:21:27

I replaced the Kershner's on my frailing Vega open back Tubaphones with Presto tailpieces mainly for traditional reasons. Both gave good results along with Fyberskin heads, but when I replaced the Kershner tailpiece with a Presto on my bluegrass banjo it made a world of difference. Much better sound. I once tried an ODE tailpiece on my bluegrass banjo and that was a big mistake. Way too heavy. Wonder what a "no-knot" tailpiece would sound like on a bluegrass banjo? Hmmmmmm.

Crusty - Posted - 01/30/2015:  08:32:29

Tom, if you want a No-knot that applies a little down force, get a Fielding.  They're fine tailpieces and look elegant to boot.  You better order one from Elderly before they're all gone since Will has passed and there may not be any more made.

Ohio Senator - Posted - 01/30/2015:  09:30:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crusty

Tom, if you want a No-knot that applies a little down force, get a Fielding.  They're fine tailpieces and look elegant to boot.  You better order one from Elderly before they're all gone since Will has passed and there may not be any more made.

---

The only Fielding tailpieces Elderly has left are in polished brass

elderly.com//accessories/items/P119B.htm

I picked up both a brass and nickel from this UK shop on ebay.  If anyone needs the brass I'm willing to sell/trade it when it comes in.

ebay.com/itm/250806757505?_trk...BIDX%3AIT

Jonnycake White - Posted - 01/30/2015:  09:37:05

This discussion makes me glad I've decided to build adjustable tailpieces for my two current open back banjo projects, which my first with 12" rims.

rudy - Posted - 01/30/2015:  11:22:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jonnycake White

This discussion makes me glad I've decided to build adjustable tailpieces for my two current open back banjo projects, which my first with 12" rims.

---

Glad to hear that, Jon.  It's actually quite easy to make an adjustable tailpiece in the home shop, so if anyone has the facilities I'd say save your money and make your own.

(...but then I say that about most anything banjo with the exception on tuners...)

Trayfe Banjo - Posted - 01/30/2015:  11:45:10

I have a 19-teens (*not sure of the exact date?) Vega Whyte Layde 12" open-back 5- string which I've had for over 20 years. I initially liked the sound, but it just did not sound like I wanted. On a recommendation from a friend, I put on a no-knot tailpiece  which I found really "opened up " the sound and took out the trebly sound which I didn't like and the reason for putting on the no-knot. As discussed in other posts: there is really no one answer=> this is my experience and preference.

BDCA - Posted - 01/30/2015:  13:32:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trayfe Banjo

I have a 19-teens (*not sure of the exact date?) Vega Whyte Layde 12" open-back 5- string which I've had for over 20 years. I initially liked the sound, but it just did not sound like I wanted. On a recommendation from a friend, I put on a no-knot tailpiece  which I found really "opened up " the sound and took out the trebly sound which I didn't like and the reason for putting on the no-knot. As discussed in other posts: there is really no one answer=> this is my experience and preference.

---

Once again, the sound you will get with the No Knot will be based on the crown height of the head. It may be that had you adjusted the original TP to have the same heights and string pressure as the No Knot, it would have sounded similer or even better.

Cya!

Bob

Ohio Senator - Posted - 02/08/2015:  10:04:24

So, I picked up a Stew Mac Whyte Laydie parts banjo from Zepp recently and got to work setting it up.
It has a few quirks, having been built by an amateur, but also had potential.
Still after swapping out heads, bridges, and making adjustments... it sounded decent, but just not exactly THERE yet.
I posted it up on craigslist thinking, no big deal, can easily sell it for what I paid...

Then, last night, got to thinking.
Have had a Kerschner for sale in the classifieds for a couple weeks now.
Decided to swap it out late last night and WOW.
Totally changed everything about the character of this banjo.

Its weird cause it had a No Knot, and the crown height/rim was low enough that I didn't suspect much difference.
And I've tried this exact same swap out on my Bart Reiter Galax and didn't like the change at all.
But, on this particular banjo, whatever the reason, it totally opened up and is a different animal now.
Absolutely keeping it now... close call!

jgwoods - Posted - 02/08/2015:  11:14:55

I use a Kershner on old banjos where the neck angle has come up and the bridge has been lowered to keep the action. The downforce is largely lost in that maneuver and a long tailpiece like a Kershner can get enough of it back to keep the bridge in place.