Parker135 - Posted - 12/07/2014:  16:25:02

I'm settling in a new skin head on an open back banjo, tightening a little every day as it stretches.  I've been using a DrumDial to keep track of what's going on, and there is one area of the head that's always looser than the rest, even when it seems like I'm tightening more in that area.  Could this be because of different thickness or elasticity of the head in this area?  I'm also checking it with the 10" straightedge/quarter method, but that doesn't tell me much about the evenness around the head.  The height of the tension hoop is still uniform around the circumference, so I guess I haven't favored the one spot too much yet.  Maybe the DrumDial is just not a good idea with a skin head, but I feel like I'm still getting more info with it than without it.

jbalch - Posted - 12/07/2014:  18:36:12

Parker:

Natural hide does indeed have significant differences in thickness, stiffness and texture that I think render the drumdial ineffective as a means of setting tension.  I think its best use (and that of the ruler & deflection method) is to maybe prevent over tightening and reduce the risk of breakage.

Unless the hide is machine sanded (like those processed by Stern Tanning Co), the thickness will always vary across its surface.  Even sanded hides have some degree of mottling.  Those with translucent spots have a very pronounced difference in texture or stiffness between the clear and whiter spots.  Each of these areas will give different drumdial readings just because of the natural variance in thickness or stiffness.

With a hide head you are far better off to set the tension by ear and feel rather than by a measurement.  I've posted photos and a narrative of my recommendations here:  banjohangout.org/myhangout/pho...umid=8629

Edited by - jbalch on 12/07/2014 18:43:24

Parker135 - Posted - 12/07/2014:  19:06:27

I'm busted! You weren't supposed to read my post, John! I know you're not an advocate for using the DrumDial on skin heads, but with my limited experience I thought I would at least try it. I've tried your tapping method, and I have to say that the head sounds really uniform around it to my untrained ears. The head fit perfectly and sounds great, by the way. I store the banjo in a case with a humidifier which causes a little slack which I take up every time I get it out, then watch it tighten further while playing in the drier air of the house. It seems to be stabilizing a little more every day.

Thanks for your reply.

jbalch - Posted - 12/07/2014:  19:28:58

No worry.  I hope others will chine it too with their own perspectives and advice. 

i actually think that hide settles over time in a way that naturally equalizes the tension. As you know, I judge by sound.  I think that even tension results in clear ringing sustain and maximum responsiveness. In my experience it is easier to achieve that with hide than Mylar. 

Aradobanjo - Posted - 12/07/2014:  19:36:25

Hello, 

I have used a drum dial on a jbalch head. This was for a 1928 TB-2. It works fine. The head I have is cow. It had a scar that has separated. It gives it character. 

XXXris - Posted - 12/07/2014:  19:59:26

I have used a drum dial on a skin head on my 12" banjo, and feel that it is worthwhile.

I think you can't aim for exactness at every hook, and you resolve yourself to the idea that your reading will not be the same in a few days, and you won't worry about it.

To me, the real benefit of the drum dial is to get *evenness* across the head. As you have mentioned, this isn't completely possible with a hide head, but still I think getting a general evenness is helpful, in your initial setup.

Tom Berghan - Posted - 12/07/2014:  20:15:00

Hi Parker,

I'd stick with John's advice.  I think my personal process is really the same as John's . . . but I am a engineer and so I am by nature I guess a "detail freak" and I like to put things down into "standardized procedures."  My procedure below does not mention tap tuning or drum dials, but those are perfectly valid and still go hand-in-glove with the procedure . . . meaning that once you reach a tension that produces a sound you prefer, then collect some data so that you can return there again.  The data would be 1) The gap under the straight edge.  2) The pitch when you tap the head.  3) The drum dial readings.  I hope this helps and provides some additional info to John's advice above.  Best Wishes,  Tom

------------------

How to tension the head of a banjo

1.      First go to the hardware store and buy a wooden paint stir stick (many hardware stores give them away for free).  Or, go to the drugstore and buy a wooden ruler.  Also buy a little can of 3-in-1 Oil.  Cut either the stick or the ruler to 10 inches in length.  Return to the banjo.

2.      Now you begin.  Take the strings off of the tailpiece, remove the tailpiece and take the head off.  Remove all of the J-Bolts.

3.      Get a paper towel and wet a small spot with 3-in-1 oil.  Turn all the j-bolt threads on the oil spot.  Do this every time you change a head (which should be a rare event).  Oiled threads last longer, don't bind up, don't give you a false sense of torque (resistance), and don't squeak and squawk.

4.      Place the head on the rim

5.      Get everything even on the tension hoop (no high spots).

6.      put on four j-bolts at the 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock positions . . . finger tighten only

7.      hold the rim up and look at it horizontally all the way around and make sure the tension hoop is even (head to tension hoop . . . no high spots, even all the way around)

8.      adjust if needed

9.      set the rest of the j-bolts, finger tighten only . . . NOT tight

10.  start tightening the nuts just one-eighth turn - go clockwise (or CCW) one after the other, all the way around - not a star pattern (you're not  putting a wheel on your car)

11.  repeat step 7 and 8

12.  NOTE: some say one quarter turns . . . but what is your hurry?  I like one eighth turns because the whole process stays in finer control. I have a friend who prefers one sixth turns and uses the "flats" of the hexagonal nuts as a visual indication of turning a nut by one sixth.  Makes sense to me.

13.  keep repeating steps 7, and 8

14.  Now when the head seems to be getting pretty tight but not yet too tight, put your tailpiece, strings, and bridge back on and tune the strings up.  If the bridge sags too much repeat step 10 and keep tightening

15.  When the bridge is sagging just a little and the strings are up to pitch, take the straight edge and lay it on edge along side of the bridge (near the feet of the bridge - and the straight edge should be centered evenly, fitting just inside the tension hoop).  The straight edge should be running parallel to the strings.

16.  Look at the gap under the straight edge by the foot of the bridge.  See it?  It should be something like maybe 3/16th of an inch.

17.  Keep tightening until the gap will hold a quarter snug (a United States 25 cent piece)

18.  If the banjo sounds good then stop there, but if it sounds a little "hollow" try going around again by 1/8th or 1/6th turns.

19.  You're done.  Go play your banjo.

20.  Take your straight edge once a week, for one month and check the gap.  If the head stretched, then go around again tightening by 1/8th turns, or 1/6th turns.  If you ever think you have it too tight, just go around loosening by 1/8th or 1/6th turns.

Edited by - Tom Berghan on 12/07/2014 20:18:42

Parker135 - Posted - 12/08/2014:  04:14:59

Hi Tom,

I'm a retired engineer, so I guess I'm drawn to measurements and consistency the same as you are. I'm pretty much at your steps 17 and 18 by now. I guess if nothing else, the DrumDial has been useful in comparing its readings with the straightedge method and giving me some easy references for future tweaking of head tension. I'm at the "snug quarter" point now, reading around 88 on the DD in most areas, while the one small area seems to want to hang a few points lower. I think good enough is good enough. I appreciate everyone's comments.

Parker

jbalch - Posted - 12/08/2014:  04:36:39

Parker:

IMHO the only meaningful measure of head tension is sound.  Your ears are the gauge that matter. I really suggest one simple thing - play a note on the first string way up at 17th or a higher fret. Let it ring until it stops - and listen VERY closely

A properly (evenly) tensioned head will produce long, clear sustain with even decay.  An improperly tensioned head will cause the sustain to be shortened, or sometimes wavy or uneven. When that high note rings long and clear, the rest of the banjo will be optimized and resonate properly.

Modulation in the decay or shortened sustain can be signs that there is unevenness in the head tension.  If it doesn't sound right, I use the tap method to even the sound around the rim.  Perfection is not required. But the improvement is very noticeable.

Tom Berghan - Posted - 12/08/2014:  07:44:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by jbalch

Parker:

IMHO the only meaningful measure of head tension is sound.  Your ears are the gauge that matter. 

---

As we say in New Orleans . . . "True Dat"

​So insert what John says about final tone at my Step 18!

You know, the main thing about my written process is the journey and not so much the destination.  Following my process will result in a pretty even tension all the way through to the final destination . . . to "that magic sound" that John describes.

We read all the time where people deform and over-stretch perfectly good heads (whether hide or Mylar) because they get the thing all "kattywhompus" as they tighten.  That is why I describe in great detail the process of constantly adjusting and tightening by small turns.  My process was born out of my own experience screwing up a couple of perfectly good heads.  I learned the process from watching Arthur Hatfield on his Banjo-Setup DVD.  All I did was to "tweek it" a little and write it out step by step.

It sounds like you are now at the "gates of the castle!"  Enjoy that find hide head!  I sure like mine!  It sounds sooooo good!  Best Wishes, Tom 

Edited by - Tom Berghan on 12/08/2014 07:47:55

davidppp - Posted - 12/08/2014:  14:29:53

The DrumDial measures vertical deflection for a given amount of force. A torque wrench on the nuts has the issue of hook-to-hook variation in the friction of the threads. (So some people wipe them with oil.) Ideally, without any friction, the torque wrench will tell you about the horizontal tension in the head in the radial direction near the hook. So local thickness and stiffness variations in a skin head show up as variations in DrumDial numbers when the tension is uniform. On the other hand, if the thickness and stiffness are not exactly uniform, it's not clear that uniform tension is what you want. I figure you want it to sound good. You certainly don't want any part of the head to be loose and floppy, but I suspect that the inevitable small variations contribute to why you wanted a skin head in the first place (i.e., instead of a really thick mylar one).

So I'm totally with John

bhniko - Posted - 12/08/2014:  14:59:52

My untrained ears refused to discern or recognize a G by tapping on the head. Having John's 4 star goat head I hand tightened the head slowly for a few days and then used the quarter test. I tightening in small increments so the quarter slid easily under the straight edge. clearance.  But still unsure if I had even pressure around the head. I then set up the Drum Dial and it read 87. Dialed up to 91 in increments of 1 then back down to 89 where the sound quality was the best. I found it to work fine.

Parker135 - Posted - 12/08/2014:  20:04:11

These additional comments have been really helpful to me. Tonight I pulled the banjo out of its case (with the humidifier) and the head was relatively slack. The DD, which I promise to quit using, read around 85. I tried John's sustain test on the higher frets, and the banjo was just dead. After a few minutes in the drier room air, the tension increased to about 89-90, except for the one area that wants to run a little low, and the sustain was clearly better. I was wondering during the day today if I had enough experience with banjos yet to hear the difference, but it was night and day. I'm starting to get it.

davidppp - Posted - 12/10/2014:  12:47:32

There is always the potential peril of destroying a head by over-tightening and tearing -- especially a skin which will shrink while you're not looking if the humidity drops. But, Parker, you've got a great opportunity since you've identified that there's just one area that gives a low Dial reading. You can listen for what happens when you just modify just that region --- and you could report back. I think it would be interesting.

jimt - Posted - 02/03/2015:  09:34:23

I have used a drum dial for years on both plastic and hide heads. I have come to the conclusion that, at best, the DD is useful for getting an average tension and is not to be used for an absolutely consistent result. Even mylar will give an inconsistent reading. What one wants to achieve is consistent tension on the shell, tone ring, and stretcher hoop. This is achieved by even tension on the hook nuts, and avoiding improper tension on the tailpiece and coordinator rods so that the shell is not contorted and the tone ring is evenly stressed. The earlier posts about 1/8 and 1/6 turns are closer to the point. Assuming the head is sitting on the shell straight (see the earlier description which is good for this), people will be better served by trying to feel the nut resistance while going around the head tightening nuts a partial turn at a time. What one feels is that the next nut is loosened by tightening "this nut", resulting in having to increase the amount the next nut is turned. With a nut driver (vs a head wrench) and a mind toward trying to get a feel for an even delivery of the torque one delivers to the nuts, you will get a better result by striving to end up with even torque as each nut is turned, allowing for the slack as you feel for the same resistance (torque). This method works by going around the shell one nut at a time, and not doing the opposing nut technique. When the DD is reading a satisfactory "average" ( for me, around 88 pounds +/- on an old Mastertone), you are probably there.  String it up, position the bridge, and pick. If you like the staccato tone and less sustain, keep the tailpiece close to the head. If you like sweeter tone with more sustain, allow the tailpiece to float a bit higher.