alia - Posted - 09/27/2014:  20:05:12

Hey all,

I'm in need of some advice. I have a 5-string banjo that I'd like to tune in all-fifths and I'm looking for input as to the tuning and what strings to buy. 

The reason: I love bluegrass and I've been attempting to learn the banjo for a couple years. It's never really gotten off the ground. The asymmetric tuning of the 5-string has truly tripped me up--I think in fifths. Recently was talking to a friend who suggested I just tune the instrument in a way that made sense to me. I thought--oh yeah. Should have done that already! However, the D4 string cannot accept the tension I now want to put on it.

The five-string is for me. I don't want to play a tenor or anything else--I just want to tune it in a way that works for my brain. 

-Alia

dmiller - Posted - 09/27/2014:  20:09:50

I'm not sure what you're asking other than tuning your banjo in fifths.  Could you tell us (from 1st to 5th string) what notes you want to tune to?  

beegee - Posted - 09/27/2014:  20:52:29

I think you would be better served by learning to play in standard tuning. I play guitar, banjo and fiddle and each is tuned differently. Sounds kinda like putting square tires on a bicycle because you don't think in circles. Don't reinvent the wheel.

raharris - Posted - 09/27/2014:  21:00:00

cGDAE

​GDAE is A common tuning for tenor banjos, and if you want to make it complete you can use a c for the fifth string.  But keeping the fifth string in fifths -- as it were -- doesn't make much sense. Better to use a high G.

But I'm not clear this makes sense. If you want to play in fifths you might be more interested in tenors than 5-strings. I suggest working with an open tuning and sticking with it until you've got it down.

tokarev_99 - Posted - 09/27/2014:  23:58:16

cGDAE is correct but I think to have a perfect fifths tuning you'll have to tune the 5th string in Bb with 5th string capo on 7th fret...



anyway the presence of a drone should reveal the nature of the instrument itself...



any instrument "drone-equipped" is normally thought to be used in a particular key (or, anyway, in a specific number of keys)



you can tune a 5string by fifths but IMHO it would sound like an "uncommon model of tenor banjo"

Edited by - tokarev_99 on 09/27/2014 23:58:45

Emiel - Posted - 09/28/2014:  01:02:48

I do think it could work. Tenor banjo players can form all chords you need (even more, I guess) on a banjo tuned in fifth. Such a tuning can also be played in finger-picking style or even using bluegrass rolls. The 5th string, of course, has to be tuned according to the key you are playing in. E.g., g for G and C; f# for D, a for A etc.

It will have a unique sound though.

If your 4th string is too heavy, you will have to use a lighter string. You might have to work out a custom-set of string gauges.

chas5strings - Posted - 09/28/2014:  03:03:53

A great idea. Why wouldn't it work? Innovation is refreshing. Go ahead re-invent the Wheel, one doesn't see many army tanks on wheels.

Retune (or capo) the drone for whatever key in which you are playing. You will have a far greater range of keys than the usual 5 string banjo player (no insult intended but you guys do play in G an awful lot).

Go for it and I look forward to a video of the result.


Just a warning...................You'll probably fall foul of the mando players' union!

Alex Z - Posted - 09/28/2014:  14:52:29

The String Tension Guide on the D'Addario String Co. web site will provide the tensions of various gauge strings tuned to various notes.  This will provide a method to select suitable gauges for the tuning you want.

A 5-string banjo in standard tuning has roughly the same tension on all the strings.  For cGDAE, my recommendation would be to tune the 1st string to the E above middle C, using a .0095 or .010 string, and then select the other four string gauges that give similar tensions.  Doesn't have to be exact, only close, within a pound or two.  This will result in total tension on the neck, and the feel of the strings under your fingers, about the same as standard tuning.

After that, playing bluegrass -- traditional bluegrass that you hear on recordings -- is up to you.

In fifths, the distance on the fretboard from one string to another is 7 frets.  On open strings, this distance is one-third of the scale length, or 1/3 x 26.25 = 8-3/4", kind of like a cello.  Thus, there will be certain sounds, combinations, and chords that you won't be able to get on the fifth tuned banjo, and others that you will be able to get that you can't get on a standard tuned banjo.

Also, in a standard tuned banjo, the 1st string and 5th string fretted on the same fret (say, 10th fret) will give the same note.  This fact is used in many techniques when playing up the neck.  Don't know what might work out in a fifth-tuned banjo.

Let us know how it goes.

Edited by - Alex Z on 09/28/2014 14:55:14

Alex Z - Posted - 09/28/2014:  15:04:14

Also, you may want to rethink how to tune the 5th string, rather than automatically a fifth higher than the first string.  There are many different tunings for the 5-string banjo in traditional music, including bluegrass.  Because the 5th string is so often played open, it is almost always tuned to a note in the triad of the key that the tune is in.

So, for example, if the tune is in the key of C, a fifth string tuned to the B above the E first string may not sound very "bluegrassy."  May have to capo or retune the fifth string.  However, this may not "work for your brain," as you indicate.  Or there may be other solutions.  Should be interesting to explore.

Explorer - Posted - 09/28/2014:  16:27:18

A set of tenor banjo strings so you can easily tune to EADG (high to low), a drone string to match the thinnest string so you're int he ball park tensionwise, and a Sidewinder Capo for your drone string... what a great idea!

sidewindercapo.com/

This should absolutely work, and will prevent that "sameness" which arises from banjo normally only playing in open and semi-open  tunings. Plus, you can easily tune to regular banjo open G should, should you be struck by the urge.

More versatile trumps less versatile.

Good luck!

Fathand - Posted - 09/28/2014:  17:34:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by Explorer

A set of tenor banjo strings so you can easily tune to EADG (high to low), a drone string to match the thinnest string so you're int he ball park tensionwise, and a Sidewinder Capo for your drone string... what a great idea!

sidewindercapo.com/

This should absolutely work, and will prevent that "sameness" which arises from banjo normally only playing in open and semi-open  tunings. Plus, you can easily tune to regular banjo open G should, should you be struck by the urge.

More versatile trumps less versatile.

Good luck!

---

Tenor Banjo Strings are unlikely to be long enough to put on a 5 string neck. If you buy the same gauges in 5 string length you will have to adjust for the extra 3-5 Inches of scale length and lower your tuning accordingly. If you buy the guages for the Tenor CGDA tuning you might get them as high as as the lower GDAE Irish Tenor tuning or something close.

Fathand - Posted - 09/28/2014:  17:50:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by alia

Hey all,

I'm in need of some advice. I have a 5-string banjo that I'd like to tune in all-fifths and I'm looking for input as to the tuning and what strings to buy. 

The reason: I love bluegrass and I've been attempting to learn the banjo for a couple years. It's never really gotten off the ground. The asymmetric tuning of the 5-string has truly tripped me up--I think in fifths. Recently was talking to a friend who suggested I just tune the instrument in a way that made sense to me. I thought--oh yeah. Should have done that already! However, the D4 string cannot accept the tension I now want to put on it.

The five-string is for me. I don't want to play a tenor or anything else--I just want to tune it in a way that works for my brain. 

-Alia

---

All the support for bluegrass banjo is going to be based on the regular Open G tuning. Millions of Banjo players have learned to use it as have multi millions of guitar players using a somewhat similar tuning that mixes 4ths and 3rds. I am not saying you cannot learn to play in your own banjo tuning but you eliminate a lot of short cuts of the materials already out there and are reinventing the wheel so to speak. 5ths tuning is great for learning scales but Bluegrass banjo is more chord based than scale based. Bluegrass banjo uses rolls playing chords and tuning to 5ths will create some long finger reaches to make chords.

If you are trying to go for a 5ths tuning,  Get a Guitar 5th string and tune it to Low G on your 4th, Put a Banjo 4th string on your 3rd and tune it to D, Then a Banjo 2nd String as your 2nd tuned to A and finally you need something thin enough to tune to E for your fist string, A .008 should do. Put a regular 5th string on your banjo and spike it or tune it to wherever you like for the particular key you are playing in.

Dan Gellert - Posted - 09/28/2014:  19:39:05

All fifths wouldn't be a good idea on a 5-stringer.  The scale's too long to play tenor-style melodic lead comfortably, and besides, so much of the characteristic 5-string sound is about building phrases from string to string (arpeggios) as opposed to up and down each string in scales. You need closer intervals to make that work. 

Old-time, Scruggs, melodic, classic finger-style--  in all-fifths tuning they'd all be pretty much impossible (or at best very clumsy-sounding even with virtuoso-level chops).

I do use an all-fourths tuning (gBEAD), but consider that a special-purpose tuning for just a couple of songs...   One certainly COULD get a lot of mileage out of that tuning by changing the thumb string to suit the key you're in, and some use of a capo.  (there are a few tunes in D traditionally played tuned f#BEAD)

Explorer - Posted - 09/29/2014:  01:01:20

My instrument with the widest range is an eight-string electric guitar with a 28.625" scale length in full fifths tuning, from Ab0 to A4 (special string from Octave 4 Plus Strings on the top.

A little thought and the help of the D'addario String Tension Chart, remembering that the pitches are for 25.5" scale length. For 27", you'd drop them a half step, and your highest normal string would break at G4, and for a 28.625" scale length, you'd have to drop the listed note from the chart a whole step, with your breaking point for the highest non-drone normal string being F#4. 

What's the normal scale length on 5-string banjo, anyhow? Is it much longer than 28.625"? Because  28.625" should have no issues with getting to F4, and E4 is  a half-step flat of that.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 09/29/2014:  02:42:20

You say you "think in fifths" - does that mean you play mandolin or fiddle? If you have experience with fifths just put together a set of single strings of the same sizes as a light gage tenor banjo set - tune it about a minor 3rd (3 frets) lower than a tenor banjo to start with - then see if you need to tune up or down to get the strings at a comfy pressure.

Once you establish a baseline tuning with light gage strings you can decide if you want higher or lower pitch. Strings are cheap - try different sizes. Experiment until you find the strings and tuning that works for you. I suggest you use a 5th string that will give you a note about a 4th above your highest sounding long string, but everything is negotiable since you are essentially inventing a hybrid instrument.

I Guess you should also think about what keys you wish to play in, and perhaps choose a 5th string of a size that will get you a high kicker on the tonic or dominant (5th) of your most common key. EG: With standard 5 string tuning the 5th string at high G gives you the root of the key of G and the dominant of the key of C.

Here is a warning however. 5ths tuning will lead to some really long stretches for chords on the longer neck of a 5 string. This is why large instruments like basses are tuned in 4ths instead. There are people who happily play octave mandolins, and mando cellos, so if your fretting hand is stretched well, you can probably do it. When I played classical guitar I had to deal with some really tough stretches and used Aaron Shirer's Slur Ornament and Reach Development book to really get my hand stretched out and agile. You would have to rewrite all the exercises for 5ths tuning but that would in itself be a learning process - well worth the time.

In fact - since most of the exercises in the book are not at all melodic in nature, I suppose you could simply transcribe them to tab based solely on the left hand positions given for guitar, and then play the exercises as they come out. Patterns is patterns - right?

As an aside -- I have a tenor guitar I tune to 5 string banjo tunings. DGBD, CGCD, and occasionally DGCD. I also capo the 2nd fret to bring up the most common old time keys of D and A. I never have tuned it in fifths because I've never played a 5ths tuned instrument for more than a short time. Mandolins feel terribly cramped to me, and I've never been interested in tenor banjos - I do have a (so called) tango banjo (17 fret tenor) but it is tuned to the above five string tunings also. I'm thinking about nylon strings for it.

BTW that DGCD tuning above works well for doing Irish jigs and reels (many capoed 2). I used to flatpick some of the faster tunes that I didn't know well enough to clawhammer and having fifths like that gave me range. I just thought of the string a fourth above as a quick tonic note I could throw in (in the right key of course) I use the same tuning for both G and C tunes and Capo 2 for D and A. Dorian A tunes were jes'fine too - capo 2 natch.

Best of luck with the project. 

Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 09/29/2014 02:57:32

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 09/29/2014:  04:29:16

Here's the form that puts standard open G tuning in the circle, just slide it up and down the neck.

Banjo Circle Form

Rick_S - Posted - 09/29/2014:  08:27:33

Like many here, I'd be curious to hear what you'd come up with. However, I still advise against it. I think you'd be giving away more than you'd gain.

RawhideCreek - Posted - 09/29/2014:  09:02:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by raharris

cGDAE

​GDAE is A common tuning for tenor banjos, and if you want to make it complete you can use a c for the fifth string.  But keeping the fifth string in fifths -- as it were -- doesn't make much sense. Better to use a high G.

But I'm not clear this makes sense. If you want to play in fifths you might be more interested in tenors than 5-strings. I suggest working with an open tuning and sticking with it until you've got it down.

 

---

That proposed tuning will simply put you playing an octave below a violin.

If you're playing around with the idea, consider viola tuning with the 5th string taken from violin tuning:  eCGDA.  You'll definitely want to tinker with lighter string gauges for 1st, 2d, and 5th.

I've noodled around with this off and on, but I began my musical life as a violist, so I have an advantage in reading the music and knowing where the notes lay on the neck without having to think about it.

Chords are more problematic down the neck but not impossible.

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 09/29/2014 09:03:29