Siminoff - Posted - 08/30/2014:  13:16:29

nograss5150 - Posted - 08/30/2014:  13:32:26

I hope you're going to call them cliff-hangers because that's what you're doing here--just saying.  :-)

Danaher - Posted - 08/30/2014:  14:26:09

Sounds like a good scientific investigation, and you said that you've looked at winding techniques, but I guess my question is about the (typically) four unwound strings in a set.  Are the unwound Straight Up strings made of some custom material, or are they just carefully chosen/matched gauges of pretty much the same metal used in most everyone else's strings? 

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but just curious about the marketing, what motivates someone to buy Straight Up strings instead of a perhaps lower cost set of the same gauges?

All that being said, I'm patiently waiting for the opportunity to  buy a set. 

Edited by - Danaher on 08/30/2014 14:26:29

Mike Casey - Posted - 08/30/2014:  17:50:26

Roger, I'm looking forward to the results. I followed all of your test bench articles in the old Frets Magazine and still have them in the old brown Frets binders. You went to more trouble than anyone I know of to make sure everything you were testing was measurable and repeatable. I used to marvel at the various devices and jigs you worked up to get the results. It had to be a lot of fun because you've still got your smile. I have no doubt the Straight Up strings will be great performers. Mike

Edited by - Mike Casey on 08/30/2014 17:51:46

Siminoff - Posted - 08/30/2014:  18:09:05

Joe: If we call them Cliff Hangers, do we have to pay you a royalty?  :-)

Danaher: Good questions - thx. Our strings are made for us in the USA (we don't make them ourselves), and the wire is also made in the USA. There are only a few manufacturers of the wire, and you are right that the plain wire is virtually the same wire used by all the string manufacturers. Even though it comes from a few sources, the alloy and attributes are virtually identical.. The wire industry calls this type of nickel steel wire "mandolin wire" for all gauges under .050" and "piano wire" for all gauges above .050".

Because we have focused so intensely on the down pressures, wire increments in .0005" have been very important to, and this has been a bit harder to source. So, you very well may see some fractional sizes from us that other makers are no doing. The wound fourth string is another story. While the hex core wire itself comes from those same wire manufacturers, there are several important issues that must be considered during the winding process, and these include: 1) type of wrap wire, 2) tension of wrap wire while being wound, 3) tension of core wire while being wound, and most importantly the wrap-to-core ratio since there are several ways to come up with the same .020" or .022" wound string, for example. All of these issues are vitally important to us.

As to price, we're focusing on a suggested retail price (SRP) that is in the same SRP range of other banjo strings on the market. What I can't comment on - because I just don't know yet, and actually, we'll have little control over - is what will happen to the prices when these strings are in distribution and available through some of the on-line resellers. So, that's a wait-and-see game.

What we hope will motive folks to buy Straight Up Strings really comes back to our goal: that they perform better with improved string-to-string balance (otherwise, we really wouldn't enter the highly competitive string market).

....R

Theresse - Posted - 08/30/2014:  19:11:18

Can't wait! Thanks for sharing all that Roger!

Bigbadbucksnort - Posted - 08/30/2014:  20:43:31

If this isn't proprietary information, what are you changing about the strings to equalize the lateral pressure? Different metal composition? Different gauge combinations?

Siminoff - Posted - 08/30/2014:  21:22:30

William... Thanks for first posing the "proprietary information" question - I'm sure there will be some places along the way where I say "sorry, can't talk about that!" but I'm good with your questions here. We're using the conventional nickel-steel wire. We don't want to make a radical departure from the banjo's overall character, but instead are focusing to improve the string-to-string balance specifically as it relates to three-footed bridges, and to help the fourth string a bit on the equal loudness aspect (ISO: 226-2003). So the focus is on fractional gauging, core-to-wrap ratio (for the wound strings), the type of winding, and the method of winding. ...R

Danaher - Posted - 08/31/2014:  04:04:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by Siminoff

What we hope will motive folks to buy Straight Up Strings really comes back to our goal: that they perform better with improved string-to-string balance (otherwise, we really wouldn't enter the highly competitive string market).

---

Good to hear the plan is for a competitive price point, but even if not, knowing the effort and analysis that Roger Siminoff  has put into Straight Up Strings would motivate me to buy them.  Your endorsement conveys a lot of quality and integrity.

Quickstep192 - Posted - 08/31/2014:  04:43:23

Strings and string gauges are a very fascinating study to me. I have a fan feet guitar which has multiple scales and I tune it to alternate tunings. I've been working a lot with various gauges to get the best tension/balance combination.

Do you have any plans to make guitar strings?

Siminoff - Posted - 08/31/2014:  12:40:21

Kurt Kemp - Posted - 08/31/2014:  16:57:55

The real question is, will they make me sound like Earl?

i am a tinkerer and tester and live for this kind of stuff so I am looking forward to trying a set.

-Kurt

Siminoff - Posted - 08/31/2014:  19:07:18

Kurt. That's the age-old million dollar question. Sadly Earl is gone. But if you had his right hand, you could!!!!

...R

Edited by - Siminoff on 08/31/2014 19:13:29

Bigbadbucksnort - Posted - 08/31/2014:  19:43:37

That actually is pretty fascinating.

By "fractional gauging," do you mean that you're breaking out from the standard whole and .5 gauge numbers?

You realize that you will earn a throne on Olympus if you come up with a .618 in there somewhere. ;)

Siminoff - Posted - 08/31/2014:  20:01:28

William... Thanks, and sorry for not being more clear. Yes, I do mean using more finely-gauged strings, for example, .0105", .0115", etc.,

As to the .618" wire, we're reserving our supply for suspension bridges!!  :-) ... R

DantheBanjoMan - Posted - 08/31/2014:  22:36:28

Roger,

I don't want to open a whole 'nother can of worms here, but the movement of the strings also opens up the whole question of how much relief there should be in the fingerboard.  I do not have access to a high-speed video camera, but I have often wondered if we are introducing the right amount of relief or, more importantly, if it is being introduced in the right place.  

If you think about where the truss rod is anchored and where the strings are connected, it would be easy to imagine that the area of greatest relief produced by a truss rod adjustment would not necessarily coincide with the place where the string vibration is its greatest.  But then again, I can't say for sure because I have no way of collecting any real data.  Any thoughts on this?

BDCA - Posted - 09/01/2014:  04:41:07

And don't forget the Irish tenor players. We could really use a US made wound .016 or .017. Probably OT players wouldn't complain either.

Cya!

Bob

Tim13 - Posted - 09/01/2014:  07:18:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by DantheBanjoMan

Roger,

I don't want to open a whole 'nother can of worms here, but the movement of the strings also opens up the whole question of how much relief there should be in the fingerboard.

---

Taylor guitars has a good video online showing how they build their necks.  When they glue the fretboard to the neck body, they clamp it in a jig that shapes the neck.  It puts some forward bow in up to about the 16th fret, and bends the tail of neck down at the heel, creating a complex shape as they refer to it.  This way, when you put neck relief in the neck, you don't get a hump at the 14th fret.  Banjo makers don't do this, they give you a flat neck, which I think is why the up the neck test is so critical when trying out a banjo.  It's a happy accident when the banjo neck builder inadvertently puts these attributes into a neck, either by "screwing up" an intended flat neck, or by the wood not being relieved properly, and taking that shape.  When someone says a banjo has a great playing and sounding neck all the way to the 22nd fret, I think this is what may contribute to that.

Tim

Hotrodtruck - Posted - 09/01/2014:  08:05:59

Mr. Siminoff:

In reference to this statement:   "On banjos, the angle of attack of the thumbpick and fingerpicks  is somewhat parallel to the plane of the head (although the fingerpicks attack the strings at a slight upwards angle)."

While I agree with it, I can also observe that the strings are actually pushed down as the pick move through the string's space, as well as being pushed sideways, even though the finger motion may appear to be in the upwards segment of the arc, depending on hand position. I see no upward movement of the strings until they rebound from initial movement. This is very easy to observe by slowly going through the picking motion.

This brings up the question recently discussed of how much angle the bend in the finger picks affects the sound. My observation is that more angle of the pick results in more downwards displacement of the string, for any given hand position. That is not to say, necessarily, that more bend always makes the best tone. Although, an easy experiment is to push a string down with a pick and release it, then pulling up on a string and releasing it. Compare the different tone of each case.

I'm sure that none of this is news to you, but it is an interesting angle (no pun intended) to the discussion of string movement and tone.

Mike

DantheBanjoMan - Posted - 09/01/2014:  15:01:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tim13

quote:

---

Originally posted by DantheBanjoMan

Roger,

I don't want to open a whole 'nother can of worms here, but the movement of the strings also opens up the whole question of how much relief there should be in the fingerboard.

---

Taylor guitars has a good video online showing how they build their necks.  When they glue the fretboard to the neck body, they clamp it in a jig that shapes the neck.  It puts some forward bow in up to about the 16th fret, and bends the tail of neck down at the heel, creating a complex shape as they refer to it.  This way, when you put neck relief in the neck, you don't get a hump at the 14th fret.  Banjo makers don't do this, they give you a flat neck, which I think is why the up the neck test is so critical when trying out a banjo.  It's a happy accident when the banjo neck builder inadvertently puts these attributes into a neck, either by "screwing up" an intended flat neck, or by the wood not being relieved properly, and taking that shape.  When someone says a banjo has a great playing and sounding neck all the way to the 22nd fret, I think this is what may contribute to that.

Tim

---

Tim,  Thanks for the insight.  Actually, I have a pretty good idea of how guitar and banjo necks are built, so my big question is whether or not anybody has recorded the movement of a banjo string with a high speed video camera.  If you're a fan of Mythbusters you've seen them use the high speed, it is amazing what happens to a sword or an arrow when it is in actual use.   I would be interested in seeing a high speed capture of a banjo string as it is being played just to see if what actually happens is the same as what we think happens.

Rick Turner - Posted - 09/01/2014:  15:31:25

There are some high speed string videos on the 'net, and strings move a lot farther than you'd think possible.

Rick Turner - Posted - 09/01/2014:  16:22:20

Guitar string motion video:  createdigitalmusic.com/2011/07...shutters/

Aradobanjo - Posted - 09/01/2014:  18:34:53

Hello,

Thank you Rick for sharing the discussion from "what qualifies  as a legitimate capture of a standing wave." Please exclude iPod and iPhone devices seems to be the rant. To be certain, expecting more from a commercial product for the consumer is a stretch. 

Rick Turner - Posted - 09/01/2014:  18:49:28

There is justifiable skepticism of that first string motion video...



But here are two more that may be a lot more real:



search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf...amp;type=



youtube.com/watch?v=eFXFkgqYkck



At any rate, strings have considerably larger excursion than on might think, hence the need for a bit of relief in fingerboards.

Edited by - Rick Turner on 09/01/2014 18:53:17

Rick Turner - Posted - 09/01/2014:  18:52:08

And check this for bass strings:  search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf...amp;type=

These will give you a little taste of some of the forces a string exerts upon a bridge and then upon a banjo head or instrument soundboard, and wtih these, you are not seeing the tension modulation on the string as it happens to a flattop guitar bridge where there is tremendous torquing of the bridge happening at twice the fundamental and harmonic modes of the strings.  That 2xf energy is pretty interesting, and I know it's been a major focus of some of Roger's guitar research.

Strings really are the final frontier for R&D...even "plain" strings as Roger is mostly dealing with in this project.  And half a thousandth on a .10 string is 5% of the string diameter.  That becomes significant when we in the lutherie trade are going for that last 5% "mo' bettah".  That last 5% usually takes 100% more effort to achieve.  

The miracle is that wire can be drawn to the tolerances possible.   I wind magnetic pickups, and it utterly boggles my mind that I can buy a reel of 44 ga. copper magnet wire that is about the diameter of one of the hairs on my head, and there are many miles of this stuff...insulated, to boot...on a reel.   When I'm winding, I'm putting more than a half mile of a single strand around a magnetic core, and I can hold tolerances of + / - 2% of DC resistance with ease.   That stuff is consistent.  

Edited by - Rick Turner on 09/01/2014 19:05:11

Hotrodtruck - Posted - 09/02/2014:  16:36:44

Bump.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 09/03/2014:  01:27:45

When I was in college we got a hold of a lab strobe light and set it to 440 cps (as it was then)--tuned our instruments A strings with it. 

Siminoff - Posted - 09/03/2014:  07:36:27

Bill - about 4-5 years ago, Planet Waves (a division of D'Addario) came out with a small tuner that was basically a small frequency generator with a strobe output. You put it next to the string you were tuning and when the string was in pitch (i.e., the same frequency as the light) the strobe made the string appear to stop dead still. ...R

mikehalloran - Posted - 09/03/2014:  08:03:15

That was a cool tuner. I wanted a chromatic version but never saw one.

MrManners - Posted - 09/03/2014:  09:15:45

My guess is, that wherever the string is ''in relation to it's neutral state '' when it releases from the tip of the pick it will naturally snap straight back and across across to the opposite,Of course this is not taking into account the longitudinal shifting.The way it slides off the pick , tends to flavor the sound ahead of the fundamental ,the same as other pick noise.
Ran across a paper by Dr.Rae the other day,seems as the note sustains ,the strongest sound goes onward to higher overtones.That has to fit into thinking about strings and also sustain
my 2 cents --Tom

Siminoff - Posted - 09/03/2014:  09:55:52

Dan... The thoughts about relief in the fretboard varies from maker to maker. Rather then "building in relief" I prefer to adjust the truss rod to have a bit of relief in the center of the fretboard of about .005". (I like this to be an adjustment that is available to the owner, and future owners, rather than "building it in," so they can have the setup they prefer.)

Mike... It is very interesting to see the wide array of curvature that folks put in their fingerpicks, and you are correct that the pick's curvature coupled with the actual angle of attack of the finger does make a difference in sound. There is some upward movement as the string is released from the pick, but the sideward pull is more dominant so the direction of the strings' orbit is primarily predicated in the response to the direction of attack. Also, while this varies greatly from musician to musician, the primary movement of the index and middle fingers is a pulling one (towards the thumb) and not a curling one (into the palm). So regardless of how the picks are curved, much has to do with the exact position, extension, and curvature of the fingers at the moment the strings are attacked.

...R

Siminoff - Posted - 09/03/2014:  10:45:14

Oh, one more thing. There were some comments earlier about high-speed movies of strings in motion. I took some high speed movies with a Bolex 16mm camera back in the FRETS Magazine days and if my memory serves me correctly, we showed some still clips from it (which doesn't reveal much) in a FRETS special edition Strings Issue. The film is long gone (and went with the sale of FRETS). I'm away from the shop but I'll look to see if I have any of the still captures when I return and I'll happily post some.

...R

MrManners - Posted - 09/03/2014:  17:18:15

the way my picks are (the head being the bottom of view),my middle finger releases above the neutral so it pulls up and towards the palm,the thumb and index release below the neutral as pressure is applied downward and the arcing pick engages the string,their angles are not capable of any upward pulling at their release points ,actually more of a downward push. However sideways is the main excursion

DantheBanjoMan - Posted - 09/03/2014:  20:01:25

Rick,

Thanks for posting the links to those videos.  My impression after watching them is that I am not putting enough relief in the necks I am adjusting.  Also, I still have a nagging notion that the relief we put in the necks isn't always where it should be, but rather where the truss like it to be, especially on guitars.

I have looked at six or seven videos so far and still haven't seen a good side view that gives a precise picture of how the string vibrates in relation to the fingerboard, and I think that would be even more telling.

Very cool, thanks again!

Siminoff - Posted - 09/04/2014:  09:00:22

Dan.. I agree that it would be great to have great side views - as well as great end views (i.e., viewing down the length of the string). One of the key problems is being able to capture the full 26" length of the string - whose amplitude might be about 1/8" - and have it be visible enough and sharp enough (resolution wise) to really see the entire movement of the string. And the same goes for end views down the length of the string to see the orbits of the string in motion. Problem there is depth-of-focus; being able to capture a sharp image of the string near the lens as well 26" further away. The film we shot years back was of sections of the string in motion, and the images were interesting but not great and did not tell the whole story. During the first day of our Luthierie Camps I demonstrate the modes of a vibrating string using a 8' shock chord which, hile not exactly the same as what happens to a steel wire, the modes are quite similar and certainly visible. When I get back from my trip I'll take some photos of that demo and post them. I think you all might enjoy seeimg some of the interesting things that happen there. ...R

Edited by - Siminoff on 09/04/2014 09:02:17

Siminoff - Posted - 09/15/2014:  15:31:14

I'm back and as promised I did a quick video with some close-ups of string modes. It primarily focuses on the issue of the lateral (parallel to the head) excursions of the string compared to those perpendicular to the head. In the last scene of the video, I forgot to mention that the lengthwise (longitudinal) energy of the string is of some importance to the banjo, but it is the major driving force in a fixed bridge instrument such as the steel string guitar. You'll find the video here:

youtube.com/watch?v=-7AwyUDQI_Q

Roger

Dan Drabek - Posted - 09/15/2014:  15:40:56

Live link:

youtube.com/watch?v=-7AwyUDQI_Q

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 09/15/2014:  15:56:02

Thanks, Roger, for an illustrative and thought-provoking demonstration!

Rick Turner - Posted - 09/16/2014:  10:41:42

Roger, that is great stuff there and also hints at the coupled resonator issue of a string being attached to a head or top on an instrument.

The end of the string is thought of as being a node, but because it is coupling there to something that will move...a bridge, for instance, it is not truly a node. If it were, then no energy would be transmitted into the head or top.

Another interesting demo would be to attach one end of the bungee cord to a vertical lever and watch the 2 X "f" motion of the lever. I made an experimental hex guitar pickup that responded that way when I was working for Gibson with the idea of maybe being able to halve the response tracking time of guitar synths. I didn't get to perfect it, but I did show it to Les Paul who was amazed and admitted that he'd not thought of it. That was a first...

Siminoff - Posted - 09/24/2014:  14:00:37

Edited by - Siminoff on 09/24/2014 14:03:05

captbanjo - Posted - 10/11/2014:  15:12:38

So, I'm reading the new Banjo Newsletter and I see that Roger Siminoff has launched his new string company. I went fishing around on the forum and I found this old post.

I ordered three sets of the heavy gauge. Very interested in seeing what this does for my banjo. Right now, I am using the Bill Keith gauges and they are close to what Roger has put together for his heavy gauges.

Wayne

captbanjo - Posted - 10/12/2014:  08:44:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by captbanjo

So, I'm reading the new Banjo Newsletter and I see that Roger Siminoff has launched his new string company. I went fishing around on the forum and I found this old post.

I ordered three sets of the heavy gauge. Very interested in seeing what this does for my banjo. Right now, I am using the Bill Keith gauges and they are close to what Roger has put together for his heavy gauges.

 

Wayne

---

I had meant to provide the link:

parts.siminoff.net/

The Pope - Posted - 10/13/2014:  20:14:11

Got a set of Roger's new banjo strings & put them on a couple days ago. First impression? I like them. I was using American Made Banjo Bill Evans strings before these. Gauges are somewhat different but not radically:

AMB: .010 .011 .013 .020 JD .010

Roger: .010 .0115 .013 .020 .010   I guess the only difference is the second - slightly bigger. I'll post more later after band practice on Wednesday...

Siminoff - Posted - 10/13/2014:  22:08:08

Erik... Glad you like them. As to guages, the obvious one is as you describe; the B string in our "medium" set is a .0115". The not-so-obvious one is the wound D string which is a slightly different core-to-wrap combination than most other .020"s on the market today. Also, our stainless wrap wire is a chromium stainless wire that should feel a bit smoother than what you may have been using before. Individually, these are tiny differences, but they add up - and banjos are rather sensitive to tiny changes. I look forward to your experience with them after your practice.

..R

Rick Turner - Posted - 10/14/2014:  10:24:23

My son, Eli, and I visited Roger about three weeks ago, and one of the things we all talked about was that as luthiers, we are chasing down that last 5% to 8% "edge". At this point we sweat to gain even a virtual percentage point. It's like that next world record in the 100 meter dash which will be set by mere thousandths of a second. In lutherie, too, it's not all about how your instrument might fare in a true blind test because that does not convey how the instrument feels to the musician playing it; there are "lesser" sounding instruments that inspire better playing because they respond better to fingers and hands. I've heard some amazing musicians coax fantastic music out of really weird instruments because of that feel thing. Roger is a musician/luthier who really tries to get deep under it all and serve the feel as well as the sound.