JimInAlabama - Posted - 07/31/2014:  14:06:57

My Chuck Lee 12" Lone Star Deluxe arrived safe 'n sound via FedEx today!  We'll be in the courtship stage for a while.  I played bluegrass for years on a Stelling with the slender 1 1/4" neck, and recently started learning CH on a Goodtime with a similar skinny neck profile.  I wanted a wider, chunkier neck and this is definitely chunky, I think I'll like it once I get used to it but it does feel thick now!  The 12" pot is much more comfortable for me than the 11" Goodtime.  This banjo was made in '07, neck appears to be cherry, has the short S scoop, Waverlys, Ren head and has been around BHO before.  The craftsmanship is absolutely wonderful.

It has a 5/8" heavy Moon bridge and is strung with Nylguts, which I know very little about.  I really want to like 'em, they'd sure be easier on my nails.  I knew they would be mellower and a lot of people love 'em but my first impression is that they're a little too tame and dull to my ear.  I tightened the head a bit which added a little life to 'em.  (I use a drum dial, it was at 86, I brought it up to 88.  And yeah I know the real ol' timers didn't use those but it helps me!) 

Question ..... do Nylguts get dull over time like steel strings?  It's my understanding that these have been on there about a year without a ton of playing time, the winding on the 4th string doesn't have any noticeable fret wear.

The action also is higher than what I'm used to and I know that's normal for CH.  I didn't check anywhere else but it's 9/32" at 17th fret, is that somewhere in the normal range? 

rudy - Posted - 07/31/2014:  14:29:20

Congratulations, Chuck makes great instruments.

Nylguts do not loose tone as they age, a couple of other things do happen.  Depending on how much you use other tunings the strings can start loosing their ability to intonate correctly at the fret positions, most likely due to the string eventually stretching out in a non-uniform manner.  The wound fourth will most likely go first, with the wraps breaking through and starting to unwind.  There is a solid fourth that you can use if you like, but experimentation is key if you want to stay with synthetics.  Nylgut reds are a bit brighter, but there are a lot of folks that have breakage issues with them.  Someone else will no doubt be along shortly to suggest something else.

Lee banjos are made so the heel can easily be repositioned higher or lower to set your action, I certainly couldn't play 9/32".  I generally shoot for about 1/8" over the 12th, but obviously this is a personal preference thing.

As with any banjo, it will take a bit of experimentation before you bond.  Head type, head tension, bridge height, tailpiece, strings, and action adjustment will all factor in before you reach that happy place.

I wouldn't think the heavy moon would be a good combination with Nylguts, but sometimes things work when they generally shouldn't.  You might try throwing a lower (and lighter) bridge on to see what you think of a low action and hopefullt improved tone.  Don't be afraid of a cheap straight bridge to test the waters; you'll find compensation to be minimally helpful with synthetic strings.  They don't follow the rules that steel strings do.

Edited by - rudy on 07/31/2014 14:37:21

Mark Johnson - Posted - 07/31/2014:  14:37:21

Congratulations!  That's a beaut.  He does such great work.

I have not used a drum dial before, but I generally like Renaissance heads very very tight.  Very tight.  You might take it up even higher and see if you start to get tones you like.  You can always back off!

Nylguts have a really long life, and I doubt those ones are dead if the 4th is looking good.  My suspicion is either tightening the head will bring some life to it, or you just simply don't like Nylguts.  The jump from Steling to 12" wood rim with Nylgut is a doozy!

Nylguts can require slightly higher action, being a relatively thick and floppy string choice, but 9/32" seems excessive to me.  I typically check action at the 12th fret, but would expect most players to like something in the 5 to 7 /32" range there.

Chuck is a member here.  Hopefully he can chime in with what he aims for before shipping a new banjo out...

-Mark

JimInAlabama - Posted - 07/31/2014:  15:28:54

Ha! You're right Mark, however I did go from Stelling to Lee via the Goodtime for a short period!

Thanks for the feedback on action, I'd read that some like higher for the Nylguts but I knew it felt really high to me. It's right at 1/4" at the 12th, maybe a 64th higher even. And just by eyeballing it looks like more relief than I ever had on a banjo, but I'm not gonna start twisting on the truss rod yet!

I kept the frosted head on the Stelling at 92 and know that some like the Ren heads that tight as well. I put a Ren head on the little Goodtime and it seemed to like 90 so I stopped there. I'll lower the action just a touch first, let the head settle tonight and tighten the head a bit more. And Chuck may come in with some expert tutelage for me in the meantime.

BlowingRockNC - Posted - 07/31/2014:  15:37:42

Jim, that's a gorgeous banjo. I'm sure your great great grandkids will thank you for getting it at some point far in the future.

hillside - Posted - 07/31/2014:  16:27:18

hillside - Posted - 07/31/2014:  16:37:13

You need a really light bridge to get volume and tone from nylon - you are generating much less energy with those strings. Something like a Veerman mystery wood works for me, and he can slot it properly for nylon. Or just take to carving away at any bridge you have - when it looks like it must be about to collapse, it will be just right.
But you need to find a bridge height that is low enough while not allowing string buzz. Veerman has guidance on his web site which is helpful. Dropthumb on the G string creates the most buzzing for me, so if that works without buzz, I am at a good height.
I have used Ren heads set from 84 and up for clawhammer. There are a lot of different tones available with those heads. Bluegrassers seem to like them only super tight to get some snap, but old time can use a wider range dependin' on what you like.

rudy - Posted - 07/31/2014:  17:31:47

quote:

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Originally posted by JimInAlabama

Ha! You're right Mark, however I did go from Stelling to Lee via the Goodtime for a short period!



Thanks for the feedback on action, I'd read that some like higher for the Nylguts but I knew it felt really high to me. It's right at 1/4" at the 12th, maybe a 64th higher even. And just by eyeballing it looks like more relief than I ever had on a banjo, but I'm not gonna start twisting on the truss rod yet!



I kept the frosted head on the Stelling at 92 and know that some like the Ren heads that tight as well. I put a Ren head on the little Goodtime and it seemed to like 90 so I stopped there. I'll lower the action just a touch first, let the head settle tonight and tighten the head a bit more. And Chuck may come in with some expert tutelage for me in the meantime.

---

Check (and adjust) relier before making ANY additional setting changes.  If you don't know how to check relief there is information on my setup page at my website:

bluestemstrings.com/pageBanjoC...s2.html#9

Edited by - rudy on 07/31/2014 17:33:18

J-Walk - Posted - 07/31/2014:  17:36:55

Keep in mind that the sound you hear isn't the sound that listeners hear. It's probably louder (and less tame) than you think!

Joel Hooks - Posted - 07/31/2014:  17:56:34

Congrats!  Chuck's craftsmanship is tops, fit and finish is perfect.

This sort of ties in to something I brought up on a different discussion.  Chuck has made thoughtful changes to "traditional" (read that as S. S. Stewart style) banjo design specifically for wire strings.

Placing the bridge in the center of the head reduces the shrillness.  Decreasing the scale reduces the hard tension and makes playing on the nonelastic strings pleasant. 

Cutting away the fingerboard allows for one to play far away from the bridge.

All of that makes for a great wire strung banjo, but may be pretty tubby with soft strings.

I would start with a thin tight head.  Make a bridge out of pine, cedar or basswood.  Basswood can be bought in 1/4" thick sheets at hobby shops.  Everyone has a scrap piece of pine.  Cut to something that looks like the attached image and sand the taper with sandpaper on a flat surface.  That will put a little pep in it.

Play near the bridge where the strings are firm using a confident strike.  Rub the feet of the bridge on some powered rosin to keep it from shifting.

Soft strings do wear out.  As Rudy wrote, they stretch uneven (esp if they are force stretched when put on).  This can cause them to play false.  They will also get flat spots or indented where they are fretted.

I'm not a fan of nylgut as they seem clacky to me.  But I'm the weird one that likes Labella 17s (recently changed to a harder rectified nylon).

Edited by - Joel Hooks on 07/31/2014 17:58:48

Kimerer - Posted - 07/31/2014:  18:01:30

Very nice banjo.

"There is a solid fourth that you can use if you like"

Where can one find a solid, unwound Nylgut 4th string? I have not seen them in ages. The last time I tried to order them from aquilausa.com they never arrived.

rudy - Posted - 07/31/2014:  18:21:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kimerer

Very nice banjo.

"There is a solid fourth that you can use if you like"

Where can one find a solid, unwound Nylgut 4th string? I have not seen them in ages. The last time I tried to order them from aquilausa.com they never arrived.

---

I believe all of the new Nylgut red series feature an unwound solid fourth.  Here's an example:

elderly.com/accessories/items/A1BR.htm

stevel - Posted - 07/31/2014:  18:54:04

Glad to hear you found a Lee Jim. 

I don't like Ren heads. They sound muddy to me.  Tighten it up or put a skin head on there. 

elclaudito - Posted - 07/31/2014:  19:59:56

I'll chime in too, but should note that I haven't used the exact combination you have. I have a banjo with a 12" pot that came with a ren head, and I really liked the sound with the head cranked down pretty tight and a heavy 11/16" Moon bridge. I didn't stuff the head at all, by the way. It was plenty load, but I was using steel medium gauge strings, so certainly different that nylguts. Recently switched to a goatskin head, and the heavy Moon bridge had to go, it seemed like it was choking the tone. I think it did a great job on the ren head, mellowing out the brightness of it while retaining a lot of harmonics and "bite". I have an old SS Stewart that I put a Ren head on, but am just using a regular old $4 bridge on at present, the three footed type, so that banjo is basically waiting for a skin head and a two footed bridge experiment of the sort Joel described above. At this point, whenever I get around to it, I want to try those Chris Sands strings I read about on BHO every so often.
I bet it's pretty exciting to have such a different instrument than it sound like you're used to, especially one with nylon strings, which it sound like are new for you as well. Have fun playing with your sound and play the heck out of it!

JimInAlabama - Posted - 07/31/2014:  23:46:19

Thanks for the tips y'all!  Here's where I'm at.



Relief is ok .... .016 clearance at 7th.



I cranked the head down more (from 88 to 90 first, then to 92), very little it any noticeable change, which I found odd.  Put a medium weight 5/8" Sosebee bridge on and brightened the first three strings up some but the 4th was still really thuddy, sounded even worse once the treble strings brightened up. 



On closer inspection in good light I see things on the Nylguts I didn't notice before. 1st is nicked up pretty good and 4th has more wear than I thought, one place looks like it might be getting ready to start coming unwound.  I have a couple of sets of Elixirs on hand and I'm thinking I'll put a set on and give it a shot.  That will at least give me a legitimate reference point.  And probably will try Nyguts or Sands again at some point.

I do need to get the string height down.  Rudy made the comment "Lee banjos are made so the heel can easily be repositioned higher or lower to set your action"  Is it really as simple turning the one screw where the neck joins the rim??



 

stevel - Posted - 08/01/2014:  05:18:09

jim- depending upon how the nut is filed, the nylguts might be sitting higher than steel strings would be.  swap them out for steel and then check the action before messing with the neck.

JimInAlabama - Posted - 08/01/2014:  10:29:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by stevel

jim- depending upon how the nut is filed, the nylguts might be sitting higher than steel strings would be.  swap them out for steel and then check the action before messing with the neck.

---

Good call Steve, the steel strings sat a lot lower in the nut slots.  First impression after only a quick test drive is that I'll probably use steel for a while, much more lively.  The 5th string sounds a little funky, I'm guessing the pip was opened up for the big Nylgut 5th.

I'll go back later and try some lower head tensions with the two bridges I have, maybe have one of the bridge gurus make up a magic bridge for me.  And I still want to try a new set of Nylguts at some point, these I took off were chewed up pretty bad.  But for now I'm just gonna play the snot out of it!!

rudy - Posted - 08/01/2014:  11:12:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by JimInAlabama

Thanks for the tips y'all!  Here's where I'm at.



Relief is ok .... .016 clearance at 7th.



I cranked the head down more (from 88 to 90 first, then to 92), very little it any noticeable change, which I found odd.  Put a medium weight 5/8" Sosebee bridge on and brightened the first three strings up some but the 4th was still really thuddy, sounded even worse once the treble strings brightened up. 



On closer inspection in good light I see things on the Nylguts I didn't notice before. 1st is nicked up pretty good and 4th has more wear than I thought, one place looks like it might be getting ready to start coming unwound.  I have a couple of sets of Elixirs on hand and I'm thinking I'll put a set on and give it a shot.  That will at least give me a legitimate reference point.  And probably will try Nyguts or Sands again at some point.

I do need to get the string height down.  Rudy made the comment "Lee banjos are made so the heel can easily be repositioned higher or lower to set your action"  Is it really as simple turning the one screw where the neck joins the rim?? 

---

Neck heel hight (and resulting string height over the upper frets) is adjusted by loosening the dowel brace screw, sliding the neck up or down as needed ( it's best to hold the banjo upright in your lap, grasp the rim with your fingers and use your thumbs to push the neck in the desired direction), and re-tighten the dowel brace screw.

Lee rims are made with the dowel stick hole having a bit of additional clearace above and below the dowel stick so string clearance over the upper frets can be easily adjusted.

Whenever you contemplate doing "setup" you need to progress in a logical sequence of steps.  Each step builds on the previous result.

davidppp - Posted - 08/01/2014:  11:18:00

It's a mystery to me that the Nylguts were chewed up. My experience is that the winding on the 4th goes before I notice anything else.

Because the other strings seem to last for a really long time, I've gone over to the sets with a red 4th or all reds. I really like the latter and seem to have been blessed to avoid breakage. The sound of the reds is yet further from the mellowness of nylon than the whites are. The reds are thinner than the whites (they have copper powder in them to make them more dense?) and would sit deeper in the original slots.

JimInAlabama - Posted - 08/01/2014:  13:20:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by rudy

quote:

---

Originally posted by JimInAlabama

Thanks for the tips y'all!  Here's where I'm at.



Relief is ok .... .016 clearance at 7th.



I cranked the head down more (from 88 to 90 first, then to 92), very little it any noticeable change, which I found odd.  Put a medium weight 5/8" Sosebee bridge on and brightened the first three strings up some but the 4th was still really thuddy, sounded even worse once the treble strings brightened up. 



On closer inspection in good light I see things on the Nylguts I didn't notice before. 1st is nicked up pretty good and 4th has more wear than I thought, one place looks like it might be getting ready to start coming unwound.  I have a couple of sets of Elixirs on hand and I'm thinking I'll put a set on and give it a shot.  That will at least give me a legitimate reference point.  And probably will try Nyguts or Sands again at some point.

I do need to get the string height down.  Rudy made the comment "Lee banjos are made so the heel can easily be repositioned higher or lower to set your action"  Is it really as simple turning the one screw where the neck joins the rim?? 

---

Neck heel hight (and resulting string height over the upper frets) is adjusted by loosening the dowel brace screw, sliding the neck up or down as needed ( it's best to hold the banjo upright in your lap, grasp the rim with your fingers and use your thumbs to push the neck in the desired direction), and re-tighten the dowel brace screw.

Lee rims are made with the dowel stick hole having a bit of additional clearace above and below the dowel stick so string clearance over the upper frets can be easily adjusted.

Whenever you contemplate doing "setup" you need to progress in a logical sequence of steps.  Each step builds on the previous result.

---

Thanks Rudy,

That'll help if I get to that point.  I'm gonna leave it alone for now.  The steel strings sit deeper in the nut and while a touch high are very playable..

JimInAlabama - Posted - 08/01/2014:  13:56:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by davidppp

It's a mystery to me that the Nylguts were chewed up. My experience is that the winding on the 4th goes before I notice anything else.



Because the other strings seem to last for a really long time, I've gone over to the sets with a red 4th or all reds. I really like the latter and seem to have been blessed to avoid breakage. The sound of the reds is yet further from the mellowness of nylon than the whites are. The reds are thinner than the whites (they have copper powder in them to make them more dense?) and would sit deeper in the original slots.

---

David,

I don't have experience with them but from what I've read from others it seemed odd to me too which is why I didn't pay a lot of attention to it initially.  The 1st string was the worst.  There are some exposed fret ends, probably due to low himidity, and I suspect the that string has snagged on those.  The 4th was just worn at the frets.  On the 2nd and 3rd, I have no idea, maybe accidental, or maybe a metal finger pick, who knows.  I'll try 'em again at some point now that I have a reference point from the steel strings.  But the banjo and I are getting along much better now, I'm liking it!!

stevel - Posted - 08/01/2014:  14:48:21

You're welcome Jim. You can buy replacement bone pips from Elderly for a few bucks. Of course you'd have to slot and install it yourself or by a luthier. 

I agree, it sounds like string 1 has caught a few frets ends, hence the nicks. 

The wound 4th will wear right where it contacts the frets. 

I like the new all Red sets personally, butcthey sound hit or miss with folks so far regarding breakage. 

Lee's sound good with steel strings too. Tom Berghan plays an Ovilla with steel strings, and has lots of sound files posted under his profile. 

rudy - Posted - 08/02/2014:  08:28:29

One of my friends plays all reds on one of his banjos that he plays a lot and hasn't had a string break in over a year that they've been on that banjo.

Chuck Lee - Posted - 08/02/2014:  12:08:47

Jim,



When setting up a banjo in my shop. I put .005 of relief on the neck before assembly, the strings generally pull it up to about .010 to .015 of relief after it's put together. I set the 4th string at about 4/32" above the 12th fret. It has an easy action adjustment that does not require a bridge height change.  The rectangular whole in the rim will allow slightly less room at the 12th fret and considerably more room at the 12th fret. It's an easy adjustment well explained by Rudy in the text above (Thank you Rudy!). If I can help in anyway, let me know. Thank you for choosing a Chuck Lee banjo. I am honored you would do so.

Edited by - Chuck Lee on 08/02/2014 12:12:53