Lew H - Posted - 07/29/2014:  16:31:18

I've been tinkering with playing variations on the old tune Cripple Creek. This is the first installment of these variations. I play the tune in four different modes, with these provisional names:

1.  Seeger mode;  The regular way of frailng the tune in open G major, somewhat like Pete Seeger did, but modified a bit during the 50 years I've been playing it.

2. G minor:  Still in open G major, after the first G minor chord, I continually hold a finger on the 2nd string 3rd fret, so the chord is neither major nor minor, but sounds minor, given the melody notes. (In this and the remaining two variations, the high first note is on the open 5th string).

3. Sawmill:  Yet again in open G tuning, I hold down the 1st fret of the 2nd string.

4. Phrygian: Still again in G major tuning.  All notes are open or on the first fret.  There are variations of the Phrygian mode.  A friend suggests that this variation of the tune might be Phrygian.  I don't really know: It sounds sort of Arabic or flemenco-ish.

To me, each of these variations sounds like Cripple Creek, once I hear the tune initially played "correctly."  I'm not sure each does if played in isolation--especially the Phrygian version.

As always,  I have inserted several glitches into my playing of the tune so that no one will expect perfection in my next post.

Edited by - Lew H on 07/29/2014 16:47:09

Cripple Creek, Modes of

JanetB - Posted - 07/29/2014:  17:24:55

A most impressive scholarly performance!  This must be the intro lesson to Modes 101--a necessary course for the erudite banjoist.  Hopefully there won't be homework from you due soon, but I look forward to the next installment, Lew.

banjo bill-e - Posted - 07/29/2014:  17:26:49

An interesting and fun little project. Cool how exotic and foreign you can make a common tune by changing one or two notes.

Paul Roberts - Posted - 07/29/2014:  17:30:53

Cool exposition. #4 would be quite at home in Fiddler On The Roof.

Lew H - Posted - 08/01/2014:  10:22:42

Thanks all! I don't know why I find it fun to modify tunes, or why I"m picking (pun intended) on Cripple Creek. Your comments suggest an academic or scholarly aura of these variations, with Janet's being most elaborate and explicit. I'll take that as a compliment, since I am a retired academic (31 years as Prof of Sociology at Southern Illinois University, Carbondale). Maybe academics is fun for me. So thanks, Janet, but the homework you mention is all mine!

Paul, when I said the 4th sounded somewhat Arabic, I meant Middle Eastern more generally. So, yep, maybe there could be an OT version of Fiddler on the Roof!

If you liked this, keep an eye out for more. Soon, I'll post a couple of bluesy variations with some string bending and flatted 3rds and 7ths and also some waltz variations on Cripple creek.

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 08/01/2014:  14:00:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lew H

Thanks all! I don't know why I find it fun to modify tunes, or why I"m picking (pun intended) on Cripple Creek. Your comments suggest an academic or scholarly aura of these variations, with Janet's being most elaborate and explicit. I'll take that as a compliment, since I am a retired academic (31 years as Prof of Sociology at Southern Illinois University, Carbondale). Maybe academics is fun for me. So thanks, Janet, but the homework you mention is all mine!



Paul, when I said the 4th sounded somewhat Arabic, I meant Middle Eastern more generally. So, yep, maybe there could be an OT version of Fiddler on the Roof!



If you liked this, keep an eye out for more. Soon, I'll post a couple of bluesy variations with some string bending and flatted 3rds and 7ths and also some waltz variations on Cripple creek.

---

Very nice Lew! Given your musical taste and prior occupation I can only assume that you are an advocate of conflict theory.

Lew H - Posted - 08/01/2014:  14:21:37

Laurence--
Close, but basically I'm theoretically eclectic and an empiricist, both banjoically and sociologically. I try to be banjovial. Anyway, thanks for the thought!

Cue Zephyr - Posted - 08/01/2014:  15:12:26

It seems a little too 'Arabic' to be Phrygian, but that might just be me. I haven't really analyzed it so I'm not much help there. 'Flamenco' would be accurate in describing Phrygian. I forgot how exactly that works but I did read something along the lines of Phrygian being used in Flamenco music.

Having said that, I really enjoyed listening to those four versions. If you keep the rhythms identical and close or exactly like the 'usual version', I'm pretty sure it will be recognizable. Cripple Creek has quite a distinct rhythm in the melody, as do a few more of these tunes.

Anyhow, great stuff! Thanks for sharing.

Lew H - Posted - 08/01/2014:  18:48:10

C Z, you are probably right, I'm only guessing about the mode of the 4th version. I did a web search of Phrygian mode, but couldn't figure out most of it--other than that there are multiple Phrygian modes.

Cue Zephyr - Posted - 08/02/2014:  06:11:04

Ha, you're probably right on that too.

Since G is your tonal center, you'd be playing in the third mode of Eb major. In other words, you're in G minor with the 2nd degree flatted. So that's the tones G, Ab, Bb  C, D, Eb, F. Normal Gm (beware it's in the minor mode, not key, technically speaking) would have an A natural in there.

I picked some mandolin over your Phrygian version, and it seems to me that you're in the scale that looks more like: G, Ab, B, C, D, Eb, F. That's technically a major mode.

This website listing scales says that it's the Phrygian Dominant scale, so you were absolutely right on the Phrygian designation. That also precisely explains why it sounds Flamenco-ey.

Theory is a lot of fun, I however can't seem to put it into practice.

Cue Zephyr - Posted - 08/02/2014:  06:31:45

I had a go at it myself, please excuse me for playing Scruggs style instead of clawhammer, but here it is:

Cripple Creek in G Phrygian (inspired by Lew H)

Brooklynbanjoboy - Posted - 08/02/2014:  07:47:40

Sounds nice in Scruggs rolls.  Good job.

Lew H - Posted - 08/02/2014:  07:57:58

C Z--I'm glad I inspired you, and thanks for the clarification and the bluegrass version. Your listing octave notes is correct, except that I didn't use the F note. It could be there technically, but just not in use. In my redneck way, I explained my octave or notes by saying that every note is in the open G chord or fretted on the first fret. That coincides with what you have said. Thanks!

Dr.Ken - Posted - 08/06/2014:  12:05:12

Sacrilege!  But wonderful!  Especially loved the last one, having just returned from the Middle East myself.

I am a bit confused: did you re-tune in between or just change the keys by playing different notes (I read Don Reno was good at this)???

Would love to hear the Arabian version of FMB!

Lew H - Posted - 08/06/2014:  13:05:52

This is all open G tuning. I just hold down one string with one finger to get the background sound (see my initial post). For the last round of CC, I just hammer on and pull off from the first fret of the four melody strings. Most everyone seems to like this variation the best. It's actually the simplest to play. Do give a listen to Cue Zephyr's bluegrass Phrygian version posted above. It's neat!

3 finger ninja - Posted - 08/07/2014:  07:12:32

Ionian, aeolian, dorian and phrygian?

3 finger ninja - Posted - 08/07/2014:  07:18:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cue Zephyr

It seems a little too 'Arabic' to be Phrygian, but that might just be me. I haven't really analyzed it so I'm not much help there. 'Flamenco' would be accurate in describing Phrygian. I forgot how exactly that works but I did read something along the lines of Phrygian being used in Flamenco music.

Having said that, I really enjoyed listening to those four versions. If you keep the rhythms identical and close or exactly like the 'usual version', I'm pretty sure it will be recognizable. Cripple Creek has quite a distinct rhythm in the melody, as do a few more of these tunes.

Anyhow, great stuff! Thanks for sharing.

---

Yes phrygian is used in flamenco and other music....so are the other modes...country, blues, rock, and jazz all have phrygian tunes too. You can make middle eastern sounding music using several of the modes....

Edited by - 3 finger ninja on 08/07/2014 07:24:07

Lew H - Posted - 08/07/2014:  07:28:25

5 finger, Don't ask me, because I don't know, but I do appreciate you interest. All I know is what I said in the initial posting. I've never had any music theory training. A friend with some training identified the last as "probably phrygian" from my oral description of what I was doing. I'd never heard of that before. My idea for that variant stems from a Kingston Trio song in a minor key, The Coast of California (I think that was the name). As I recall, when the banjo was picked between the melody phrases, the picker diddled around hammering on the first frets of the first three strings. I'm just having fun coming up with stuff, without knowing the technical, academic, aspects of it.

By the way, you can check my "Sound Off" post yesterday on bluesy variations on Cripple Creek for maybe yet another mode. I hope to post variations of the tune in 3/4 time soon. So keep an eye out!

Lew H - Posted - 08/07/2014:  07:39:30

Just to be clear, and to help folks identify that last variant, here are the notes I used in what I called the Phrygian variant of Cripple Creek:

--5th string-- --4th string-- --3rd string-- --2nd string-- --1st string--
G D E flat G A flat B C D E flat

jimh269b - Posted - 08/07/2014:  08:40:15

I really enjoyed it lew,i love clawhammer

Lew H - Posted - 08/07/2014:  09:00:19

Oops! My "clarification" above isn't very clear. The spacing got goofed up. THe notes were to be under the string they were played on. THe names of the notes are correct however.

3 finger ninja - Posted - 08/08/2014:  07:06:32

Im pretty sure Im right about them. Ive spent some time playing around with 'modes" and can usually pick em out. Cmajor scale starting at C is Ionian mode, or major. Starting at A is Aeolian or minor. Starting at D gives you what you call Sawmill or Dorian, the starting with the E note you get phrygian......very popular in heavy metal which I am deeply rooted lol.

Lew H - Posted - 08/08/2014:  07:41:31

5 finger, I believe you, but I don't have the motivation or patience to work through these scales to see how they work. I just try to make up stuff that sounds good, fun, interesting, or sometimes silly. Guessing from what you say, and since there are more modes, the tune could be played in some different ways yet.

Check this wikipedia entry on Phrygian, which says there are several Phrygian modes.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_mode

Cue Zephyr - Posted - 08/08/2014:  16:03:11

Thanks for the compliment, Lew.

FMB in Arabic... if Phrygian is OK too, I might have a look at it. Can't guarantee anything though, that one's a little more difficult. Great idea though.

ETA: Just tuned my banjo to open Gm again to try it out - it works fine but when I strum it open it sounds like my banjo is crying or something.

Edited by - Cue Zephyr on 08/08/2014 16:09:11