canisminimus - Posted - 07/15/2014:  15:01:09

What make an "A part" an "A part" and why do performers often start with the "B part"?

I have noticed that, while most any tabs I've seen tend to agree on the order (and I may just be projecting here) when I listen to recordings posted here there are lots of cases where the performer starts with a different part than most others.

I know that there are no objective "rules" in banjo playing, but is there a theory?

etparadox - Posted - 07/15/2014:  15:10:24

It's just a matter of personal style and preference. The notation A, B, C, etc are relative and are mostly useful when defining the different sections of a tune. Some reasons to start in a different order are that you learned that way, it works better coming from the last tune, it works better going to the next tune, there is a good intro lick for the B part, etc. 

banjoak - Posted - 07/15/2014:  15:12:05

There are some theories - I heard Alan Jabbour discuss them (IIRC has some materiel on the web covering it)  - Had to do with which part was the high part and which the low. Another is in if it's a rising contour or a falling contour.

One part is also called the coarse and the other the fine.

One aspect has to do with the degree of ornateness; and then just rhythmic function.

IMO other than descriptive, I don't know how much one would glean from such studies. 

Some tunes do indeed seem to make more musical sense one way and not the other; as the last phrase of one part seems to lead into the other and is less conclusive thant the last phrase of the other part conclusive. Other tunes IMO it just doesn't matter - the part order seems pretty interchangeable.

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/15/2014:  16:20:48

In fact, that type of use of letters is well-established outside the banjo/bluegrass/other community.  

When I took "Forms of Musical Composition" about 45 years ago, different parts of "song forms" were identified this way, as were the patterns of more complex compositions, e.g., rondos.

However, lower-case letters were typically used.

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 07/15/2014 16:22:22

Fathand - Posted - 07/15/2014:  18:37:57

Notating a tune section as A, B C etc is similar to rhyme schemes in poetry. The part played first is the A Part, when you play the next different part  part, that becomes the B part, etc. In poetry the lines that rhyme with the first line are A. Lines that rhyme with the next line ending word become B. So In a Sonnet ABBA ABBA, lines 1,4 5, 8 all rhyme and lines 2,3,6,7 all rhyme. 

If you reverse the order the  parts should be re-labelled the other way around. I have heard Old Joe Clark played with the Fare the Well Old Joe Clarke part as either the 1st or 2nd part but the label A or B should attach to it depending where in the order it is. If you tell your fellow musicians a tune is AABB they should know to play whichever part you play first, two times followed by the part you play next two times.

stevel - Posted - 07/15/2014:  19:29:29

After C

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 07/15/2014:  19:52:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by canisminimus

What make an "A part" an "A part" and why do performers often start with the "B part"?

I have noticed that, while most any tabs I've seen tend to agree on the order (and I may just be projecting here) when I listen to recordings posted here there are lots of cases where the performer starts with a different part than most others.

I know that there are no objective "rules" in banjo playing, but is there a theory?

 

---

Labeling the parts "A", "B", etc., is just a designator.  Although those labels imply a specific order by being alphabetic, it is less so than if the parts were labeled, first, second, third, etc.

The order of parts is pretty much decided by tradition or convention. That is *most* players will begin a specific tune on a specific part. No musical theory at work here.

The A-part, B-part thing seems to have become common with the modern publication of tab books.  In my experience, the old traditional part designators were "coarse" for the lower

part, and "fine" for the higher part.  There was an old Irish expression; "play me a tune and I'll turn it for you."  This seemed to designate the first part the "tune" and the second part, the "turn".

Hence: "Play me the first part of a tune, and I'll join in on the second part."

For whatever it's worth, in my experience, it seems like more Irish tunes begin with the low part and then go to a higher second part.  I find that the American scheme is largely the opposite.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 07/15/2014:  20:03:13

I agree that the "A" and "B" or "first" and "second" part designations are not binding, and not universal in many cases. I also think it is a bit OCD to get too worked up about it.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 07/16/2014:  02:22:14

Its main usefulness is to show the pattern of the tune as in AA BB AB  or some such.

Edited by - Bill Rogers on 07/16/2014 02:22:39

hweinberg - Posted - 07/16/2014:  05:16:54

what everyone said. If you're playing in jam or with players new to each other or new to the tune, it's a quick way to explain how many times to play each part ,eg, Jeff Sturgeon AA B CC.  I used to use the words "fine" and "coarse" with fiddlers to find out which part they want to start with, but those descriptions seem to have faded with the current generation.  We should bring them back; after all, it's what the old dead guys many of listen to used to say.  -- Howard

ZEPP - Posted - 07/16/2014:  08:36:25

I have noticed that the order in which parts are played can be very regional.  

Of course, if you learn a tune from folks who play it a certain way, it forever sounds right to you, and therefore if you go elsewhere and hear the parts reversed, it seems a bit odd ("but they've gotten it backwards!").

Cheers,

ZEPP

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 07/16/2014:  08:59:34

Down here we play the parts to Booth Shot Lincoln in reverse order to the way we played them in NY State. We also play the tune faster here. that is the only tune where I know for certain the order has changed. We've been here 33 years - a good long time for forgetting such things.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 07/16/2014:  14:04:52

Yes, and I hear "Cold Frosty Morning" with the parts often reversed.

*******************************************************************

The other thing is that "Coarse & Fine" are positive descriptors, kind of like saying
"turn North" rather than "turn right" for example.

banjoak - Posted - 07/16/2014:  15:37:58

Here is Alan Jabbour's thoughts you might find interesting alanjabbour.com/cascading_tunes.html

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fathand

If you reverse the order the  parts should be re-labelled the other way around. I have heard Old Joe Clark played with the Fare the Well Old Joe Clarke part as either the 1st or 2nd part but the label A or B should attach to it depending where in the order it is. If you tell your fellow musicians a tune is AABB they should know to play whichever part you play first, two times followed by the part you play next two times.

---

Not sure what you are indicating. Folks generally start on what they think is the A part. It is a matter of which part (coarse/fine) you are calling the A part. It is not universal on many tunes. A they make fine musical sense either way. It really is nothing to get worked up about. (never worth a debate at a jam) Coarse and fine are probably better descriptors, though many folks don't know those terms; but just saying "high part" and "low part" work pretty well. to clarify.

One note Alan pointed out, I observe as well, is that fiddlers are not always consistent about which part they start and stop with. Sometimes just which part comes to mind first; and then a good place to stop. Sometimes just need to play the other part to jog the memory, sometimes in that it just doesn't matter. There are parts that are clunky, anti-climatic to end on (even if it is thought of as the last part).

Did think about this - typical in fiddle tunes with words, that folks like to have it function like verse (A) and refrain/chorus (B).

Mention of other forms in music (and poetry) using lettering, is usually in a different ways than fiddle tunes; and might confuse folks more. (referring to phrase construction, and/or verse/bridge/chorus - like AA'BA)

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 07/21/2014:  16:44:20

Lots of tunes very which end of the train starts out of the station first depending on which region/tradition the tunes is learned in.

As far as the labelling goes, it's very handy  for some of us. The first part ( or phrase) of a tune (after any introduction) would be labeled A, if the nett section is a repeat or near repeat, it's also A or A' for the near-repeat. The first section that's different would be labeled B. The first section that would be different from A and B would be labeled C and so on. AABA is a common song form as is ABBA. Fiddle tunes  and dance tunes in general are often AA BB.  IMHO labelling the parts by number could get confusing for a couple of reasons- in an AABA tune would you number them 1, 2, 3, 4 or 1, 1, 2, 1  and how would one differentiate between chord numbers and section numbers?

banjoak - Posted - 07/21/2014:  19:04:31

Parts and phrases are not the same thing.

bournio - Posted - 07/22/2014:  02:21:46

Does anybody pick parts at random in 3 part tunes.

I might play ABCBA once, then ACBA next time.

Clawdan - Posted - 07/22/2014:  08:51:34

You also have to consider that if the tune was written (composed) and we know who wrote it and how, there is a "correct" order though many folks don't play it "as written". One example of this is Angelina Baker. It was written as "angelina baker, age is..." as the verse and first (a) part with the chorus (angeline angeline ...) as the b part. Most songs (which many tunes once were) go verse chorus not chorus verse so that can guide you.

Then there is how AN original source played it. Usually once you hear it that way, that's it. If several sources play it that way, that is where I start. Sandy Boys is a good example of that. Listen to both Edden and Berle Hammons' recordings of the tune and the probable source, Quail is a Pretty Bird from the 1800's banjo tutors and you will find they all start with the same part though many modern folks have reversed them.

As Zepp said too, most of this can be very regional and personal taste, as always, is the final answer for most of us as is how does the group want to do it.

Play Nice,

Dan

Clawdan.com

JanetB - Posted - 07/22/2014:  09:30:52

A very interesting topic which I've given thought to this week.  The current TOTW, Apple Blossom, begins with the fine part and I asked why.  A reason given was that by playing the distinctive high part first the listener is immediately drawn in.

Today I posted a tune on the Sound Off forum, Wild Horses in the Canebrake, where the source fiddler--Jake Phelps (1885 - 1977)--began on the coarse part (and ends there, too).  The other source recording--the one that first got my attention-- was by James Bryan on Banging and Sawing.  He began Hosses in the Canebrake (the same tune as Wild Horses in the Canebrake) with the fine part.  I agree with the author of this week's TOTW, Aaron Zischkale, that by beginning with the "distinctive" fine part first, I was drawn into the tune more with James Bryan than I would have been with Jake Phelps' version.

Thanks for all the ideas discussed in this thread to ponder.

Edited by - JanetB on 07/22/2014 09:37:27

Bart Veerman - Posted - 07/27/2014:  10:01:05

Folks might use the B part as an intro when they call out the tune to be played. I'm bad at remembering the names of tunes so it comes in handy for me as I often wonder how's that go again...

J-Walk - Posted - 07/27/2014:  16:54:44

Often (very often, in fact), I want to play a tune but I can only remember the B part. So that's what I play, and then the A part comes along naturally. 

I'm sure I'm not the first person like that.

Lew H - Posted - 07/27/2014:  18:19:35

I agree with the many saying that the sequence of the A and B parts, coarse and fine, is arbitrary--on most tunes. There are a few that change keys, such as Flopped-Eared Mule and Forky Deer, where the A part darn well better come first. Sometimes last too, for one has to get back to the base key of part A to end the song reasonably.

banjoak - Posted - 07/27/2014:  19:17:44

The A part - generally by definition would come first in most cases - just a question of which is the A part, the coarse or the fine. Heard Ernie Carpenter's version of Forked Deer - starts on the coarse part. As far as Flop Eared Mule and tunes like it,  the one thing I don't like much is when it ends on the shifted to V key and doesn't resolve back to the original key; I think of end on the other part, or at least put in a tag to resolve it.

Jim Yates - Posted - 07/27/2014:  20:04:03

Man tunes that are also songs are played AABB when played as a tune, but AB when played as a song.  Old Joe Clark is one example.