The Old Timer - Posted - 06/19/2014:  06:06:50

I decided to take out the old ball bearing Granada (flat head conversion) with John Balches hide head on it to see how it would sound.  It sounded great during the winter with the head at about an A note, as near as I could tell.

Sounded awful dumpy, closer to a G note as near as I could tell.  Also had developed a slight buzz on the 1st string up around the 17th/18th fret.

I could see the bridge feet pressing more deeply into the head.

Tightened up the tension hooks about 1/4 turn, in 2 efforts 1/8 turn each time.  Tone improved and the buzz went away, thankfully.   Fearing I'll forget about it and not slack it off when dry air in late fall returns, I've left it at about G sharp, I guess.  I know it would sound better tightened again, but I don't want to open it for the Thanksgiving afters party and find the head split!

And we haven't even had any real heat/humidity in Connecticut yet.

I understand why the pros raced to plastic heads when they came out!  Even if, as JD Crowe said in the video interview, the plastic tone horrified them.

Earls 5 - Posted - 06/19/2014:  06:28:16

It would be great news if someone came up with a combination head. One that had a inner area of hide adhered to the mylar for durability.

revellfa - Posted - 06/19/2014:  09:09:13

Earl's 5--isn't that kind of the idea behind a Fiberskyn head? I'm not sure but it seems about the same.

Old Timer--its a figment of your imagination--Ball Bearings NEVER sound bad. It must be that lousy flathead conversion ring you put in it! Kidding my friend.

There is a leather protector that you can spray on hide heads that kinda helps. Usually though the problem is in the mounting of a hide head. People use round flesh hoops instead of square ones. But, since J Balch put yours on that shouldn't be the issue.

I wouldn't worry about it being a problem again in the fall. It should naturally loosen between now and then.

Of course, if you had your Ball Bearing tone ring in it they would push up on the head and fix your problem (not really but some thought that was the idea behind the Ball Bearings.)

Enjoy!

westsideryan - Posted - 06/19/2014:  11:55:15

I just got myself one of John's heads as well.  Since I live in Wisconsin the humidity has be going all over the place.  On Sunday it was at 60%, and then on Monday it was at 37% (might have a little to do with the fact that the air conditioning was turned on), and today it is now at 52%.  Anyway, I have two good digital hygrometers that are calibrated at least once a year and have been using these to keep track of the humidity levels each day.  I've also been measuring the action of the banjo at the 12th fret each day to see if it has changed at all.  Although I know the head will most likely stretch for a while, it hasn't yet.  In fact it stays in tune quite well from day to day (so far) which is something that I didn't expect.  I am just doing this because I am curious to see how the humidity effects a hide head.

tomberghan - Posted - 06/20/2014:  15:42:55

When the dryer weather comes you just need to take 10 inch straight edge and check the gap near the bridge.  It takes 2 seconds.  Get a visual on what it is now and when the weather gets dry you may see the gap get smaller.  So, then you just loosen an eighth or quarter turn.  Very easy.

I use as wooden ruler . . . 99 cents from the drugstore . . . and cut off 2 inches.  I keep it in my banjo case and I check the gap often.  As I say, it only takes 2 seconds.

westsideryan - Posted - 06/20/2014:  16:21:41

quote:

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Originally posted by tomberghan

When the dryer weather comes you just need to take 10 inch straight edge and check the gap near the bridge.  It takes 2 seconds.  Get a visual on what it is now and when the weather gets dry you may see the gap get smaller.  So, then you just loosen an eighth or quarter turn.  Very easy.

I use as wooden ruler . . . 99 cents from the drugstore . . . and cut off 2 inches.  I keep it in my banjo case and I check the gap often.  As I say, it only takes 2 seconds.

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I actually already have a couple cut off at 11" because I have a 12" rim.  

In the winter because of how cold it is here, the heat is pretty much on nonstop. This sends the humidity level below 20% (which is where my hygrometers stop reading).  At this time all my guitar have already be put back in their cases with humidifiers.  I am wondering if I should do the same with the banjo?  Or, do hide heads dry out a lot faster than the wood of guitars to the point that it might actually be worse to store a hide headed banjo in a humidified case because when it was removed it would rapidly loose its moisture and rip?

tomberghan - Posted - 06/20/2014:  18:38:30

Hide doesn't lose moisture that fast - not within hours - not unless you left it sitting in a chair by the fireplace with a hot fire burning. A friend if mine did that and his head ripped. But, if you have an open back, you can use a violin "Dampit" and tie across two j-bolts. Like this:

Edited by - tomberghan on 06/20/2014 18:39:50

westsideryan - Posted - 06/20/2014:  19:55:30

quote:

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Originally posted by tomberghan

 

Hide doesn't lose moisture that fast - not within hours - not unless you left it sitting in a chair by the fireplace with a hot fire burning. A friend if mine did that and his head ripped. But, if you have an open back, you can use a violin "Dampit" and tie across two j-bolts. Like this:

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Wow!  Great idea!  Thanks for sharing!  So you leave the banjo out of the case like that?  I might still be a little concerned about fretboard shrinkage, but if that works for the head I'd consider leaving my banjo out so that it's easy to get at.

tomberghan - Posted - 06/21/2014:  04:35:46

I leave it in my case with the Dampit. I personally don't leave my instruments sitting out very often unless its a rehearsal, gig, or recording session. I just think instruments are safest in their cases. But they are still affected by humidity changes even though they are in their cases. I have opened a case only to find a ripped hide head. It only takes a few seconds to check the head - but we have to check them often. If you have a banjo you don't intend to play for 6 months or a year, then don't leave the head tuned to "A."  It only takes a couple minutes to loosen each j-bolt by a half turn. 

Also, the Dampit will need to be re-moistened every three days if the air is extremely dry. But I use the Dampit when I am flying. If I'm working in New Orleans one week and Phoenix the next, then the air is radically different and hides don't like that. But if you SLOWLY go from humid to dry, then they don't mind. Then I just mind the tension. 

MarkAnderson - Posted - 06/21/2014:  05:21:17

"Of course, if you had your Ball Bearing tone ring in it they would push up on the head and fix your problem (not really but some thought that was the idea behind the Ball Bearings.)"

I must admit, I thought that.  I recently bought a 1926 PB3 that was in Arizona for 40 years.  The head wasn't split so I thought that must have the been the ball bearings maintaining the correct tension. 

westsideryan - Posted - 06/21/2014:  06:33:34

quote:

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Originally posted by tomberghan

I leave it in my case with the Dampit. I personally don't leave my instruments sitting out very often unless its a rehearsal, gig, or recording session. I just think instruments are safest in their cases. But they are still affected by humidity changes even though they are in their cases. I have opened a case only to find a ripped hide head. It only takes a few seconds to check the head - but we have to check them often. If you have a banjo you don't intend to play for 6 months or a year, then don't leave the head tuned to "A."  It only takes a couple minutes to loosen each j-bolt by a half turn. 

 

Also, the Dampit will need to be re-moistened every three days if the air is extremely dry. But I use the Dampit when I am flying. If I'm working in New Orleans one week and Phoenix the next, then the air is radically different and hides don't like that. But if you SLOWLY go from humid to dry, then they don't mind. Then I just mind the tension. 

 

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LOL!  

The last couple of years I have been using Oasis humidifiers in my guitar cases because if need be, they can go quite a while without having to be refilled. But I still check them at least once a week.  I have a couple extra ones, so I figure that I just throw one of them in the banjo case this fall.  I like leaving instruments out when I can because I pick them up to play numerous times throughout the day.

Edited by - westsideryan on 06/21/2014 06:36:43

tomberghan - Posted - 06/21/2014:  06:34:21

quote:

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Originally posted by MarkAnderson

"Of course, if you had your Ball Bearing tone ring in it they would push up on the head and fix your problem (not really but some thought that was the idea behind the Ball Bearings.)"

I must admit, I thought that.  I recently bought a 1926 PB3 that was in Arizona for 40 years.  The head wasn't split so I thought that must have the been the ball bearings maintaining the correct tension. 

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I'm glad you brought this up. Of course that WAS the idea of the springs and bearings . . . that it would maintain tension on a HIDE head.  And the idea of the top tension flange was easy & quick access to the tension bolts for frequent (even daily) adjustment. Of course needed adjustments would only be small. 

The fact is, as John Balch mentioned in his BNL interview, every aspect of pot design and tone rings in the classic Gibson Banjos of the 1930s was for HIDE heads (Mylar was not invented until decades later).

The Old Timer - Posted - 06/21/2014:  12:08:50

As has been explained here on BHO, which is the only way I found out, the springs in the ball bearing head were NOT intended to take up slack in a hide head.

The were intended to acoustically isolate the 60 hole "tone tube" that Lloyd Loar developed, from contact with the wooden rim. I guess so that only the metal tube would create the banjo's "sound". The tube rested on the tops of ball bearings, which were themselves isolated as much as possible from the wooden rim by being mounted on VERY stiff springs (you just try and compress one of those boogers). And also the spring rested on a washer I believe, in the bottom of the hole drilled into the rim.

There is some old Gibson literature describing the acoustic theory of this acoustically isolated tone tube.

And now we obsess over the tonal quality of the rim, and the fit of the tone ring to the wood. Things changed pretty drastically!

tomberghan - Posted - 06/21/2014:  16:19:20

I stand corrected Dick!  Thank you!

From Simonoff's web site:

Tone chambers: The “tone chamber” was a metallic device that sat on top of the wood rim to enhance the vibrations of the (then) skin head. Several variations were created by Gibson, and these can be followed in the Evolution of Gibson Banjo Rim Assemblies. It has been thought that the spring loaded “ball bearing” tone chamber was designed to counter the effects of weather changes on the skin heads. This is not true, especially since a vertical change in the head’s position would cause improper playing. The springs were employed to improve the resilience (springiness) of the tone chamber. This design feature is attributed to Lloyd Loar.

siminoff.net/gibson-constructi...volution/

siminoff.net/gibson-rim-evolution/

MarkAnderson - Posted - 06/22/2014:  07:59:54

And I stand educated.  Thank you all.

I hope it sticks.  I lose so much these days...