Quickstep192 - Posted - 04/12/2014:  15:16:36

I'm considering a new 'jo with a tunneled 5th. Since I'm accustomed to a symmetrical headstock, my mind struggles to  visualize a headstock with an odd number of tuners. I'm looking for ideas for a design for a headstock with 5 tuners. I was considering something like a minstrel headstock but I'm up for anything. If anybody is willing to post some pictures, I'd really appreciate the ideas. 

Dan Drabek - Posted - 04/12/2014:  15:40:47

You could put the fifth tuner in the center of the headstock.

DD

rudy - Posted - 04/12/2014:  16:48:35

Consider a slotted 3+2 head stock and tunneled fifth,  I consider it the ultimate in progressive / regressive banjo design.

I'm currently finishing up a Vega N conversion neck for someone who played one of mine and asked if I'd do a neck for them.  It's very similar to the neck on the Workingperson's 11 banjo featured in my construction guide, but he wanted a traditional nut and ebony tuner buttons.  It plays like butter!

I took a few shots while doing the conversion to demonstrate the correct way to do a tunnel, which I'll be posting here in the near future.  Here's the Workingperson's 11 neck:

DEmery - Posted - 04/12/2014:  18:49:27

Rudy that is a beautiful design. Dan Knowles knocked me out a slot head with 3X2 with a tunneled 5th. Love it. My banjo is more retro than progressive; and it plays so well. I've seen a standard head stock with the tuner placed in the center and never was drawn to that choice.  David E. 

rudy - Posted - 04/12/2014:  20:08:51

Thanks, David.  Dan does a great job on anything he tackles, so I'm not surprised it's a knockout.

The 3+2 tunneled slot head is my favorite design, but it took a bit of work before I developed my short list of bullet points that I think make for a superior design.  A tunneled neck is deceptively difficult to do properly ; many designs hold just enough string tension within the design that it can be difficult to get the fifth string to tune responsively.  The small details of what makes a great tunnel design is what I intend on doing a topic on when I finish up the Vega N conversion.  I'm working on the proper mix proportions of Transtint colors to match the existing pot at present. Finish work is always my Achilles heel!

Paul R - Posted - 04/12/2014:  20:39:52

Yeah, Dan has done a fair number of tunneled fifths, slotted and "regular". Go to his BHO home page and check them out.

Ks_5-picker - Posted - 04/12/2014:  21:21:50

I reallly like the design that Leo Posch came up with for mine. It's my avatar. 

f#dead - Posted - 04/12/2014:  23:44:08

Here are my two    My vintage Jedson and my Buckeye #92 Custom

Edited by - f#dead on 04/12/2014 23:47:00

danieljtb - Posted - 04/13/2014:  00:12:15

yes Rudy!   please do share more about the tunneled 5th design. I plan on beginning my first build from scratch in about a month using that design  I have found a source for the micro steel tubing  I plan on a nylgut banjo tho, so perhaps a micro plastic tube would do

blessings  Dan

rudy - Posted - 04/13/2014:  04:59:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by danieljtb

yes Rudy!   please do share more about the tunneled 5th design. I plan on beginning my first build from scratch in about a month using that design  I have found a source for the micro steel tubing  I plan on a nylgut banjo tho, so perhaps a micro plastic tube would do

blessings  Dan

---

Will do.  I get asked about tunneled fifths a lot, so hopefully folks will find it useful.

I have some of the details about tunneled necks including part number and source for the stainless micro-tubing at my website already, but it will be good to expand on that.

Don't use plastic with Nylgut, you won't find any material that has a lower frictional coefficient that will resist the string grooving the inside bends of the tubing over time than the stainless micro-tubing.  Believe me, you don't want that scenario. I'll cover the details further when I do the topic post.

This drawing (and a bunch more information) relating to the tunnel within the fret board is in my homepage photo section.  I prefer to house the tunnel in the neck below the fret board in my slot head designs. The micro-tubing has such a small O.D. that it is possible to use it within the actual fret board:

Edited by - rudy on 04/13/2014 05:14:04

danieljtb - Posted - 04/13/2014:  22:13:50

thanks Rudy  lokking forward to your future posts   I plan on a slotted headstock and minstral strings  

Helix - Posted - 04/14/2014:  06:37:44

I used a 3/32 brass tube, but the customer wanted to stuff a clothesline through there.

So thinking ahead for a little bigger tube is a great idea.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 04/14/2014:  06:49:55

Here's mine:

Jonnycake White - Posted - 04/14/2014:  07:17:16

I feel ashamed to post my designs in the company of such great ones above - but not so ashamed as to prevent me from doing it!  I favor slotted peg heads and running the tube in the neck rather than the fretboard, so it comes out in the end of the slot

peghead

Peg head inlay (finished)

rudy - Posted - 04/14/2014:  07:32:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jonnycake White

I feel ashamed to post my designs in the company of such great ones above - but not so ashamed as to prevent me from doing it!  I favor slotted peg heads and running the tube in the neck rather than the fretboard, so it comes out in the end of the slot

---

Hey, you're bonified here!  Running the tunnel out to the center of the ramp is how I do my slot heads, too.

Fathand - Posted - 04/14/2014:  13:03:43

I am currently building this neck with a tunnel 5th string. This one was built starting with an electric guitar neck blank which is long enough since this one ha s a 24.75" scale. Before and after pics are here.

Edited by - Fathand on 04/14/2014 13:04:29

Tunnel Peghead

rudy - Posted - 04/14/2014:  17:10:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fathand

I am currently building this neck with a tunnel 5th string. This one was built starting with an electric guitar neck blank which is long enough since this one ha s a 24.75" scale. Before and after pics are here.

---

Nce job.  It doesn't look like the fifth string will exit the tube in a straight line to the tuner closet to the nut?

timtim - Posted - 04/14/2014:  19:59:56

Run the string out the back of the peg head and into a 5th string tuner mounted on the back. I personally like the idea of the tunneled fifth but hate the look of any of the pegheads. his way you can maintain a traditional look from the front.

rudy - Posted - 04/15/2014:  05:02:58

A tunneled fifth with an asymmetric peg head or head stock design does require considering designs outside the realm of comfort for folks that are used to "traditional" designs.  Once you get past the idea of abandoning conventional designs you then realize all of the benefits that these designs have over traditional approaches.  Once I tried a design with guitar-style tuners I said "OMG!" and haven't embraced "conventional" planetary tuners since.  Function has a way of trumping form in this case.

I used to consider myself more of a "traditional" design lover, but after I examined extant designs like the Ashborn (mid-1800's) I realized that other options were indeed viable and I didn't need to limit myself to a fiddle cut or some other conception as to what was "OK to use".

When considering a tunneled design you first need to decide the type of tuners you wish to use and their orientation; that will somewhat dictate the design route you'll need to take.

One of the reasons I settled into the 3+2 slot head design is the availability of Grover Sta-tites, which prove to me to be superior in design over quality planetary tuners which sell for 2-3 times more.  It's always a hotly debated issue, but higher ratio guitar tuners are just a bunch easier to use and are more stable than any 4:1 ratio tuner.

Just to present still another option, here's a shot of a tunneled fifth asymmetric peg head I've done using Grover Ukulele tuners:

Edited by - rudy on 04/15/2014 05:10:39

Fathand - Posted - 04/15/2014:  05:15:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by rudy

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fathand

I am currently building this neck with a tunnel 5th string. This one was built starting with an electric guitar neck blank which is long enough since this one ha s a 24.75" scale. Before and after pics are here.

---

Nce job.  It doesn't look like the fifth string will exit the tube in a straight line to the tuner closet to the nut?

---

 Do you think it needs to be in a straight line?

Jonnycake White - Posted - 04/15/2014:  08:03:45

A straight line will help prevent some tuning problems, particularly if the tunnel exit is very close to the tuner.

Fathand - Posted - 04/15/2014:  09:06:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jonnycake White

A straight line will help prevent some tuning problems, particularly if the tunnel exit is very close to the tuner.

---

 I understand a straight line helps to keep a string from binding in or popping out of a nut slot but in this case it is coming out of a tube so that can't happen. Also peghead angles also preclude a straight line from the nut to the tuner although the angle is in a different direction. This is my first tunnel job and I am all ears, any other thoughts?

rudy - Posted - 04/15/2014:  09:27:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fathand

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jonnycake White

A straight line will help prevent some tuning problems, particularly if the tunnel exit is very close to the tuner.

---

 I understand a straight line helps to keep a string from binding in or popping out of a nut slot but in this case it is coming out of a tube so that can't happen. Also peghead angles also preclude a straight line from the nut to the tuner although the angle is in a different direction. This is my first tunnel job and I am all ears, any other thoughts?

---

I absolutely know it needs to be in a straight line, on BOTH ends!  The reason is ANY point of contact at the edge of the tubing will create an actual bend in the string that will hold tension when the string is tightened or loosened to tune it.  For the same reason, but slightly less important, the internal bends need to be arranged in such a way to minimize any bends in the tubing.  Trust me, you'll soon realize the importance if you don't follow these precepts when tunneling a fifth string.

Back angle of the peg head also needs to be figured into the formula.  The tunneled fifth shown on the banjo using Uke tuners has the tunnel exiting at the rear face of the nut to ensure that the string line is a straight shot to the tuner's string post.  There are many ways to do a tunneled fifth, you just need to work within the constraints of your particular design.

I repeat, it's the small details that create a smoothly tunable and stable tunneled fifth string.  It's the number of banjos that are made where these details are not dealt with that give tunneled fifths a bad name.  A well-designed tunneled fifth is a thing of joy!

Edited by - rudy on 04/15/2014 09:34:07

Thor - Posted - 04/16/2014:  11:36:20

Here's mine:

rudy - Posted - 04/20/2014:  06:05:07

Since this topic has so much related information I cross-linked it in a new topic "Tips For Tunneled 5th Slot Head Construction" so it would be available when either topic is viewed as a result of usage of the forum search function.

Edited by - rudy on 04/20/2014 06:08:00