Efrayim - Posted - 03/27/2014:  18:12:46

Hello,



I recently started having string buzz and maybe someone can help.



I only recently noticed it, so I put new strings on it because the strings I had on it were maybe 8 months old and that didn't help.

The third string only has a buzz when I do a slide like on the 2nd to 3rd fret.  It almost sounds like the string is buzzing against the fret.

When I fret the string normally (not a slide) there is no buzz, only when I do a slide.  I was kind of thinking that if it was an issue with the neck needing adjusting because of the string buzzing against a fret, it would do anytime I fretted the string on the 2nd or 3rd fret, not just when I did a slide.



It's a Huber Vintage and it has the clamshell type tail piece.  Last time I had a buzz I found the clamshell cover was vibrating against the strings.  I checked that to make sure it wasn't the problem this time and it wasn't.   I've also had a buzz when my MOP truss rod cover was loose and vibrating against the screw that held it on.  I checked that and that's not the problem.  I had a buzz one time and it was one of the screws that holds the resonator on was loose.  That's not a problem this time either ~ I checked all those were finger tight.  I also had a buzz one time and I found the coordinating rod (I think that's what you call it) inside the resonator, one of the nuts had vibrated loose and was vibrating against the washer.  I tightened it back.  Checked it this time and that;s not the problem either.



This buzz is different because it isn't an "all the time" buzz, just when I slide on the third string.  The other strings don't buzz when I slide.



So now I'm either suspecting I have a loose head that needs a little tightening, or its simply my technique.  I doubt it's my technique because It didn't happen anytime before, and if it was technique it would probably do it when I did a slide on the second or fourth string too..



Your advice?  Tighten the head or just take it to a luthier and pay money to have it re-setup?  I can maybe post a sound file if that would help you to hear what I'm talking about.  I've owned it about 2 years and never had the head tightened.



Thanks!



 

thejd123 - Posted - 03/27/2014:  19:51:44

Absolutely tighten the head.  I've had the same problem a couple of times, and what will happen is the head gets so loose the bridge will sink down into it a little, slightly lowering your action and causing a buzz.  Nothing bad can come from a tighter head unless you bust it, but with the plastic heads they've got now, that's hard to do. Just tighten the clamps until they're finger tight plus 1/4-1/3 a turn as a rule of thumb.  You'll be able to feel when it gets snug.

Also, if it's not the head, make sure your strings haven't gouged out the bridge much.  That also lowers the action and causes buzzing sometimes, but I'd bet you $10 it's the head.

Jonathan

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/27/2014:  20:04:42

Is your bridge sagging in the middle?

beegee - Posted - 03/28/2014:  05:13:04

Check head tension and fret wear on the first four frets.

steve davis - Posted - 03/28/2014:  05:50:48

Did anyone mention head tension?

guitarman8491 - Posted - 03/28/2014:  05:57:48

Yep..I would check the head tension then look for fret wear as beegee suggested. 3rd fret may have some wear leaving 4 high enough to create a buzz.

OldPappy - Posted - 03/28/2014:  07:19:43

As Grandpa Jones said, tighten the head until it breaks, then back off a 1/4 turn on each nut.

Or look up threads on head tension, where you will find explanation of the Steve Davis method of head tensioning which doesn't require any fancy know how or equipment.

Head tension is the most likely culprit, but if it still buzzes on that string after head is tight, and there is no noticeable fret wear, you could try adding a little folded paper in the notch in the bridge just to raise that string a little. If that helps, I would try another bridge. Any banjo player worth his salt should have a box full of bridges anyway.

pknight - Posted - 03/28/2014:  07:28:26

As Mmuussiiccaall suggested: also check that you bridge is not sagging. Twice now, I have had buzzes caused by my bridge sagging. First time, it drove me nuts chasing down problems and a luthier took one look in 30 seconds spotted it.
As just a point of interest, the only bridges I have had sag were both compensating bridges of one particular maker, ( I'd rather not say which).

Definitely check the head tension, but put a straight edge on the top of your bridge while it is in place and strings under tension.
Best of luck,

banjered - Posted - 03/28/2014:  08:14:05

check the set screws in your tuner buttons to make sure one of them hasn't come loose. Banjered

Efrayim - Posted - 03/28/2014:  08:17:16

Thanks fellers.

After reading the bridge comments, it just occurred to me that this buzz started after I replaced the bridge. I has an original Snuffy Smith on it and then just put a farquharson bridge on it a couple weeks ago.

I don't want to throw any bad vibes out there about the farquharson but I noticed immediately the noes on the first three strings up past the 14th fret sound muted with no "crispness". Almost like if you lay the palm of your left hand flat on the head so it's kinda muted and pluck the strings. The bridge is in the right place because the harmonics at the 12th pan out.

I need to buy a head wrench thingy if I'm going to tighten it but in the meantime I might put my Snuffy Smith back on and see if the problem is cured.

If so I'll let you know. I do want to make an audio recording with both bridges before I swap it out so I can keep a record of the sound differences.

steve davis - Posted - 03/28/2014:  08:39:11

There's possibly a slight height difference between the bridges.

richard baskowski - Posted - 03/28/2014:  09:27:41

Hi Don't forget to check the screw on the fifth string tuning peg. when they come loose they rattle.Happy hunting!      rick

Efrayim - Posted - 03/28/2014:  10:58:51

Why did they make these Presto clam shell design tail pieces like that? It seems to me that metal flap will eventually come down to buzz on the strings. Seems to me it would be inevitable. I think I've seen guys weave a pipe cleaner between the strings in that area and snip it off so when the metal flap does eventually come down to rest on the strings it will rest on the pipe cleaner instead and not buzz.

Edited by - Efrayim on 03/28/2014 10:59:55

Efrayim - Posted - 03/28/2014:  11:31:34

UPDATE...

Thanks for all the great advice. I'm still buying me a wrench and tightening the head.

I took off the Farquharson 5/8 inch bridge and put in on a hard flat surface in front of my Snuffy 5/8 bridge and eye-balled it. It appears the Farquharson is about 1/16 of an inch LOWER on the bass end and about 1/32nd inch lower on the other end.

I suspect when I put the snuffy back on that'll raise my strings back to the correct 5/8 inch height and everything will sound back out.

My "5/8 inch" Farquharson is nearly a 4/8 inch height at the lowest measurement and slants upward a bit from there.

Efrayim - Posted - 03/28/2014:  12:03:21

Steve nailed it.

My buzz is gone. Musta got a Farquharson bridge that slipped past quality control.

I put the Farquharson up in front of my Deering 5/8 bridge just to make sure. Same reading.
I also put it up in front of my 5/8 Stockwell moon bridge but then I realized the moon bridge slants up a bit in the center because they are compensated, but on the ends where the height should actually be 5/8" on the moon bridge, the Farquharson was still low.

Thanks for all your recommendations.

Are head tightening wrenches "one size fits all" or do I need to find out what size my nuts on the head adjustment things are before buying?

Efrayim - Posted - 03/28/2014:  12:32:43

I didn't want to put out no bad information on anyone's product so I dragged out my steel modeling ruler and did a measurement.
The Farquharson is actually 9/16th on one end and 19/32nd on the other. Probably not enough to matter in most cases, but my Huber just doesn't like it. Probably if I was to tighten down the head real tight it wouldn't even matter.

OldPappy - Posted - 03/28/2014:  12:48:17

Yes, the nuts come in different sizes. Three that I know of.

They make a 3-way wrench for that reason, or if you can measure the nuts you can order a regular banjo key (wrench) that fits.

I just ordered a couple off of Ebay, from an outfit named Anthill Music. They are 9 bucks and some change, but they have free shipping.

An alternative I have used for years is one of the 1/4" drive T handle ratchet wrench sets they sell at the big box stores like Lowes. These are usually less than $10 and will work for most banjo nuts, other than some of the longer ball end nuts on some old banjos. You can even use a plain open end wrench, but when you use either of these alternatives you need to be careful not to over tighten the nuts which is easy to do due to the added leverage compared to a regular banjo key. You can over do it to the point of damage real easy.

That much difference in bridge height from end to the other would cause a problem. I would toss that bridge.

Efrayim - Posted - 03/28/2014:  13:49:18

Thanks Pappy.



I was going to ask before I read your post, can't I just use one on my regular old nut drivers from my toolbox while I'm waiting on a proper wrench to get here?. Just crank it 1/4 turn?



I have a nut driver type screwdriver with a square handle on it so it will be real easy to tell when it's been rotated 1/4 turn.



 

Edited by - Efrayim on 03/28/2014 13:54:33

Efrayim - Posted - 03/28/2014:  14:28:49

I have to ask your help one more time.



I took off my resonator and some of the hooks (I guess that's what you call them) were so loose I could literally shake them with my fingers! So obviously my head was sagging. Most of them were  finger-tight at least. I figured in this case the "1/4 turn" advice was irrelevant since if the nuts about to fall off and you only tighten it 1/4 turn its still sloppy loose. The "buzz" I heard might have been those hooks vibrating against the metal rim thing and not the actual string buzzing



So I went around and tightened them all. I didn't go in order, I tightened one then put a little piece of masking tape on it so I'd know I already did that one, and then I went to the opposite one (kind of like you do the lugnuts on your car wheel) so the head thing wouldn't come down lop-sided. Some of them I had to turn 1 turn or even 2 turns to get them snug (not TIGHT).



When I got done, some of the first ones I already tightened were loose again, I suppose because the head ring thing was coming down as I tightened them.



After I did this twice, I just went around and made sure they were all about the same tightness as I could tell with my fingers. I don't have a torgue wrench or anything. The nut where attaches the tailpiece I had to turn like 4 times before it got snug.



Apparently my banjo was about to fall apart and I didn't know enough about this stuff to even know it. So maybe the Farquharson bridge actually wasn't the culprit. I might put it back on later and see.



My question is, did I do right? Nothing looked like it was stressed, and the head didn't break so I hope I didn't do it too tight. If I sounds like I tightened it too much please let me know and I will go back the nuts off some. I think they are tight enough if I really tried I could probably loosen them with just my fingers or almost.



Do these nuts just loosen because of vibration often? How often do I need to take the resonator off and check them?



Thanks!

Edited by - Efrayim on 03/28/2014 14:30:01

thejd123 - Posted - 03/28/2014:  14:58:11

I usually use a 1/4 inch nut driver, too.  If you let it go more than a few months, some if those nuts can get LOOSE.  Put the resonator and bridge back on and prepare to have your socks blown off.  You should check those nuts whenever you start getting dissatisfied with your tone (about every 1-2 months for me).  I've got a bootleg Gibson prewar with a Huber HR-30 tone ring, and once in a while I'll start realizing it sounds a bit flat.  Sure enough, my head is loose every time.  After I tighten it I find myself playing 3-4 hours a day

also, when you tighten it drastically at all, you'll need to touch it up a few times for a few days.  It'll stretch some since it was so loose for so long.

Jonathan

thejd123 - Posted - 03/28/2014:  15:03:12

To be honest, I was in exactly the same situation a couple of years ago.  I was convinced the lack of tone/buzzing was my worn out bridge.  I replaced it and it didn't help, so I tightened my (incredibly loose) head and the problem went away all together.

steve davis - Posted - 03/28/2014:  15:10:19

Here's a neat trick for getting a safely tight head with no danger of breakage.

A 6" ruler held on edge at the bridge and in line with the 1st string.

"0" end toward tailpiece/2" mark in line with bridge end.

A dime fitting between the ruler and head right at the bridge foot.

I've tightened the nuts by going in order since 1960.It's a great way to not miss any and you learn to feel the wrench snug up to the 1/4 turn on each turn.

Start with a hoop that has the same amount of reveal all the way around the inside above the head.This view of the inside edge of the hoop is what tells you that you are progressing evenly.By turning each nut the same amount in order the hoop is drawn down,evenly on each complete circuit of 1/4 turns.

Sometimes you may notice high or low spots developing in the height of the hoop above the head and these need to be dealt with as you go.

If you have a lower spot developing avoid that group of 3 or 4 hooks the next time by.

Edited by - steve davis on 03/28/2014 15:12:30

Efrayim - Posted - 03/28/2014:  15:36:57

Thanks Steve.



I think I'm safe then. My dime doesn't go under effortlessly but it doesn't take any pressure at all to make it slide under. It barely does rub the ruler when it goes under.



Probably after a couple of days the head will stretch enough so it goes under with no effort.



I didn't take the bridge off when I tightened it. Am I supposed to?



I just had to retune because all my strings were sharp.

Edited by - Efrayim on 03/28/2014 15:43:22