Norand - Posted - 03/20/2014:  01:08:39

... On Old Joe Clark from morning bugle? I tried to play along and dropped by banjo down one step to play in C. But when he turns around on the G in the end of the verse, i can hear a low G one octave below the regularly tuned 3rd string. Like he had tuned his banjo all the way down to cGCEG. Even with såecial gauge strings that seems incredibly low.

any thoughts or input?

jeremyg - Posted - 03/20/2014:  02:19:40

He had one banjo strung up with five PB guitar strings because he kept it tuned so low.

Norand - Posted - 03/20/2014:  08:09:29

Wow that is extreme. Was it a long neck?

jeremyg - Posted - 03/20/2014:  09:25:46

No I don t think so

h - Posted - 03/20/2014:  20:58:50

 Hartford had a special 24 fret banjo made, not like a long neck, the extra frets were at the other end.  I think he tuned it one step low so he could capo into standard.  Dunno if he's playing it on the song in question.

jeremyg - Posted - 03/21/2014:  05:25:56

He kept the heavy gauge one in C, he had one in E also. He did nt really use a capo aside from a 5th string capo to get the high A.

Norand - Posted - 03/21/2014:  06:50:02

That's great. Thanks a lot, both of you. It means that I can tune just like him without buying myself poor and filling my house with extra gear.

stanger - Posted - 03/24/2014:  11:14:30

Try some John Pearse medium gauge strings. I find them to be on the heavy side of medium and can be tuned down a couple of notes with no big flabby problems.
A lot depends on the scale length of the banjo.

The first banjo John used when he began tuning very low was an Orpheum with a 28" scale length, which is very long by today's standards. The scale makes the neck physically longer over the 22 fret span of a typical 5-string. Back when the Orpheum John used was made, these long scale necks added a lot of tension to the gut strings that were popular then, making the banjo's sound much brighter, louder and more penetrating at a time when there was no amplification. John didn't need the volume, but when he began playing solo, he wanted a banjo that was tuned to fit his deep baritone voice better. The 24 fret Deering, which uses the short Gibson 26 1/4 scale, produced a neck that was about as long as the Orpheum and had the tone John wanted that the Orpheum didn't deliver.

Not all banjos used the short Gibson scale length. Vega always used a 27" scale length, Ode used a 27 1/8" length, and the California Fender banjos were also 27". When tuned to pitch, all the strings feel slightly stiffer than on a Gibson because they are stretched over a longer distance. But when tuned low, all the strings become more limber feeling.

Long scale lengths have advantages and dis-advantages. There is always more space between the highest frets, so fingering high up is easier and the notes are fretted more cleanly, but the first 5 frets always have longer finger reaches. The long scale tends to make a banjo more brilliant when tuned to pitch as well.

Gibson always used shorter scales on many of their instruments because of the greater ease of fingering, and they made the shorter scale's easy playability a big sales point. Many of the most popular Gibson guitars have shorter scale lengths than Martin or others, and Gibson also made long scale necks for many of it's high end guitars because professionals preferred them. The Gibson long scale is actually longer than Martin's.
regards,
stanger

Norand - Posted - 03/24/2014:  11:40:31

Thanks for sharing, Stanger!!

This is so informative. So the deering has a neck almost as long as the orpheum, but with a shorter scale (bridge placed closer to the neck for correct intonation) is that correct? 

stanger - Posted - 03/27/2014:  20:33:35

quote:

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Originally posted by Norand

Thanks for sharing, Stanger!!

This is so informative. So the deering has a neck almost as long as the orpheum, but with a shorter scale (bridge placed closer to the neck for correct intonation) is that correct? 

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Yup. You got it!

Scale length is confusing for lots of folks, including me, but frets can be added at either end of the scale. 

The extra long necked folk banjos like the Pete Seeger Vega added 3 frets onto the neck at the nut. This allows for a very deep sounding banjo, as they are tuned to a regular neck's pitch while using a capo on the 3rd fret. When capo'd down 2 frets, the pitch is the key of F, and open, with no capo, the key is E- as low as a guitar.

John played a Seeger model in his early days before purchasing his first Mastertone, and in the late 60's, played both a Fender and and Ode; he used the Ode on the Glenn Campbell Goodtime Hour before buying the Orpheum. All have similar long scales. I think John's 24-fret idea came from all those other banjos. His Deerings sure worked for him, and I'm sure he liked his 24 fretter the best of all. It took him a long time to figure out what would work the best for his unique style and his low tunings. The guy was an original thinker always, and that's what I've always loved about his playing.

regards,

stanger