Dan Drabek - Posted - 02/21/2014:  15:07:15

Very interesting. There is definitely a difference. To my ear, bridge B has a tighter, slightly brighter sound. Bridge A sounds a little more open and a bit plunkier. Both sound good but if I had to choose, I would probably choose B. And I'm guessing it has the rosewood top. Test A is, of course slightly flatter in tuning and that may be creating some of the difference.

DD

Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/21/2014:  15:56:49

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan Drabek

Very interesting. There is definitely a difference. To my ear, bridge B has a tighter, slightly brighter sound. Bridge A sounds a little more open and a bit plunkier. Both sound good but if I had to choose, I would probably choose B. And I'm guessing it has the rosewood top. Test A is, of course slightly flatter in tuning and that may be creating some of the difference.

DD

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Sorry about the pitch difference. I was trying to do this as fast as possible because I had a tiny little window in time, the dog was singing while I was tuning it up, and variant "A" was a tiny bit lower height than the other, which lowered the pitch a little. I should have checked it with a tuning fork. When I did the other comparisons, I checked it each change with another banjo.

The interesting thing with this is that we have all been listening to bridges with hard saddles all our lives. If it turned out that there was some significant improvement to be had by eliminating that, I wonder if everyone would suddenly stop making them with saddles. I doubt it. 

I have always believed that each of us has an idea of a banjo sound which is personal and path dependent, based on what we have heard and liked over our lifetimes, and if we stray too far from that familiar sound by using, let's say, carbon fiber components, making the pot really deep, and other alterations of the basic model, we run the risk of departing too much from what we're expecting. I remember Earl being interviewed on the radio and saying something to the effect that his banjo produced the sound he was expecting to hear.

I know from another thread, that people who use nylon strings eschew the center foot and the saddle. I would really like to do this whole thing with a nylon strung banjo. I actually have a woodie that I could try it with, but I would have to make some alterations, and I don't know how to play a nylon strung banjo, so I have no expectation to realize or not realize.

Ken

Bart Veerman - Posted - 02/21/2014:  19:23:43

A hugely wonderful experiment Ken, thanks for doing this and for posting it.

One does need to keep in mind though that, as per Ken's design of this test, all bridges intentionally are the same dimensions. In other words, these bridges were not optimized for sound/tone/performance so we have to be very careful about liking and especially careful before dismissing, any of these wood species.

The recordings did indeed sound quite similar except the ebony which, given their strict all-the-same specifications, very predictably didn't fare too well although dobro players might disagree...

I was delighted to see the sound waves, it looks like these pics show a bit of what sound dynamics got lost in the shuffle between recording & playback equipment.

Again, a wonderful experiment Ken!

Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/22/2014:  05:41:24

You're right Bart, These were not individually optimized within species. That would require you  to know what sound quality you were optimizing towards, in other words: I like the red maple sound best, so my tendency would be to make the Hickory one sound more like red maple by making it lighter or thinner.  I like the ebony one  least, so I would try to improve that one by making it lighter and thinner as well.  If I was optimizing them all to my own liking, they would all sound as much the same as I could make them.

It gets very subjective, and as John Banjophobic says, you step into the tarpit of subjectivity.

What I am trying to do here is to show a more objective comparison where I am not manipulating the test. If you want to find out which wood is stiffer, poplar or oak, you make both test pieces exactly the same thickness. You could make the poplar sample have the same bending characteristics as oak by making it thicker.

I did do a couple of other tests, all with the same piece of red maple - one comparing square mm of foot area, design and bridge weight, and another comparing weights of the same design, which may get closer to understanding the possibilities of optimization you are talking about.

The differences between 8 different shape and weight variations in one species of wood would probably have the same relative differences in another species i.e a lighter bridge in walnut vs a heavier one, might have the same variance as a lighter bridge in spruce vs a heavier one:

I made sound files of these, all from the same piece of red maple, as I said earlier, which I may post later on.

I may post sound files of these later

banjoman56 - Posted - 02/22/2014:  16:27:13

There's quite a difference in the sound of A and B. To my ear B is clearly the better sounding bridge.

Dan Drabek - Posted - 02/22/2014:  16:41:39

I'm particularly interested in the "violin design" bridge. As far as bridge designs are concerned, the violin bridge has been around the longest, and is the most highly evolved  and experimented with. Of course, violin bridges have no saddle. Though some of them have ebony inserts. (on the first string). But the biggest difference is the height. Look at the extreme neck angle on a violin. It results in a bridge that is far taller than a banjo bridge, yet the scale length is much shorter. I wonder if anyone has ever made a banjo with similar neck angle. It would probably require a bridge that was at least three inches tall. I wonder how it would sound. How it would play. 

DD

Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/22/2014:  16:48:13

quote:

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Originally posted by banjoman56

There's quite a difference in the sound of A and B. To my ear B is clearly the better sounding bridge.

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B is the one with the saddle, Dan and I both like that one better, too.

Ken

Aradobanjo - Posted - 02/23/2014:  05:20:19

Hello,

When comparing, I would liken the difference between Mellower and Brighter. B is Brighter than A. Yet, the clarity of A and B was the same.

What if a player would like two settings? One, when practicing in a small room (when regulated there by need) or Two playing with a group/recording/before an audience. 

Doesn't every player approach their sound with subjectivity? 

In the Dobro world, capped verses non capped is a matter of choice. On my OMI dobro, I use a Custom Inlay maple with mammoth ivory cylindrical inserts under the strings. One reason for caps is durability. I have the original inserts. The slots look worn down by the strings. 

Which banjo was used for the tests?

Thank you for your presentation, efforts and contribution. 

Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/23/2014:  09:39:26

Aradobanjo,

Thanks for your interest!

Of course, it's subjective, and we each have our own preferences which we build to. I was hoping to learn something about what effect different species of wood has on the tone color.

If someone asks me "what would it sound like if I switched from a maple bridge to a cherry one, I would be able to give a more informed opinion than it I had never done this. I did more comparisons besides the wood, and the saddle/no saddle is one of them.

Here's the banjo used in the test:

It's the raw brass constructiuon and weighs 8# 11 oz.  Red maple rim and neck.

banjoman56 - Posted - 02/23/2014:  10:40:36

quote:I guess my question has been answered then hasn't it?   BTW, Thanks for sacrificing your time to do this comparison.   

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Originally posted by Ken LeVan

quote

:

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Originally posted by banjoman56

There's quite a difference in the sound of A and B. To my ear B is clearly the better sounding bridge.

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B is the one with the saddle, Dan and I both like that one better, too.

Ken

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Edited by - banjoman56 on 02/23/2014 10:42:22

swamplunker - Posted - 02/23/2014:  11:06:08

I liked A better than B, not only was it less trebly to my ears, it sounded more focused. And the only thing that "kept me honest" was not being prejudiced in advance by knowing which was which. There are more variables of course, I have no interest in playing open-back, so everything I do is going to be bouncing off a resonator. But even when it's apples and oranges, it's good to be able to differentiate the subtleties. Being more experienced in violin than banjo, I appreciate that there's a functional reason for a bridge cap apart from the sound: you don't want the thin strings to dig their own groove into the maple and become pinched, but since I apparently liked the all-maple, I might now experiment with the minimal cap design.

majesty - Posted - 02/24/2014:  15:36:59

Ken, thank you so much for your experiment. I listened carefully. The maple bridges are the brightest. I am a tenor player, so brightness of bridges  often means too bright because of the higher  tuning of the tenor. The Ebony is my least favorite. The the sound of the submerged maple, in my opinion, would be better than the red maple on a tenor ( but as you say, what is submerged maple, really). One bridge that might sound great on a tenor is the Amelanchier  Laevis. Is that bridge available for four string tenor? It has a warm, full tone. Could you build one for me?

  As a final question, do  you think as you warmed up playing and played the same demo notes, the last demos played may have given those bridges an advantage in the clear tones? Jim.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/24/2014:  16:08:16

quote:

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Originally posted by majesty

Ken, thank you so much for your experiment. I listened carefully. The maple bridges are the brightest. I am a tenor player, so brightness of bridges  often means too bright because of the higher  tuning of the tenor. The Ebony is my least favorite. The the sound of the submerged maple, in my opinion, would be better than the red maple on a tenor ( but as you say, what is submerged maple, really). One bridge that might sound great on a tenor is the Amelanchier  Laevis. Is that bridge available for four string tenor? It has a warm, full tone. Could you build one for me?

  As a final question, do  you think as you warmed up playing and played the same demo notes, the last demos played may have given those bridges an advantage in the clear tones? Jim.

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I don't think warming up made any difference, as they were not recorded in any special order, certainly not alphabetical as they appear on this thread. As I remember, the ebony was the last one I recorded.

Send me an email off this thread, and we can talk about an amelanchier bridge.

Ken

Dave1climber - Posted - 02/24/2014:  19:08:03

Ken

Thanks for the time and effort to do this project.  An ear opener!

banjopogo - Posted - 02/24/2014:  23:07:06

Thanks for doing this Ken.  Did you know about the playlist feature?  You could organize each comparison test into a playlist for rapid fire listening!

I got interested in this when I made some new bridges from some closeout beechwood salad tongs.  Probably an Asian variety, but the characteristics do sound similar to the American beechwood.

I'm a clawhammer player, but I do like Scruggs picking.  I think I liked the spalted maple best, then the hickory, then the red maple, then the beechwood... I think!

I was surprised that I didn't like the apple or walnut.  The apple seemed to have an unpleasant spike in the highs, and not enough lows.

In a funky kind of way, I actually liked the ebony... if you want to get a funky banjo sound for some reason, that's IT!

Some of them made me think of recordings of Old Time fingerpickers- sugar maple and birch.

Some I liked but they didn't have as much fullness.... I could see someone with a 12 inch pot being able to use those to make the banjo sound less tubby... maybe..

I also thought the rosewood and the red maple w/o the cap were interesting sounds.... definitely not bluegrassy, but maybe for a classical banjo sound they would work.