John Mark Batchelor - Posted - 02/03/2014:  15:58:25

Ive never stepped foot into this part of the hangout but here I am. Ive recorded in the biggest studios in Tennessee but i've never tried doing it myself so here I go 

I have a samson ribbon mic (its a start)...where do I go from here???

whats the cheapest and best recording software i can use to get a good bluegrass sound? That has pitch correction and effects as well. That can overdub too

what are yalls setups?

The Pope - Posted - 02/03/2014:  16:09:38

John, welcome to the frustrating (and sometime glorious) world of home recording. Is the mic you have USB? - it so, that's all you need to get started. If not, you need some sort of interface between the mic & your computer. The other thing you need is recording software. I recommend Audacity (free) or Reaper (small cost, maybe 50 bucks?). The other thing is you can record with a portable recorder - I have a Zoom H-4. But even if you use a portable recorder, if you're going to do anything but a single track, you need a DAW (digital audio workstation) of which there are many, most expensive. Reaper will do it; don't know if Audacity will do multiple tracks but I think it will. (More expensive ones are Steinberg Cubase, Pro Tools (of course), etc. My H-4 will work as an interface as well. Good Luck! 

John Mark Batchelor - Posted - 02/03/2014:  16:12:30

Hey Man! No its a Samson VR88 Ribbon Mic. Id like to use pro tools but its pricy for me right now. ill look into the others too!

banjoferg - Posted - 02/03/2014:  16:54:37

Hey John--I'm completely uneducated in this arena and have only learned by trial and error.  I spent many a day on an old 4 track Tascam and the biggest lesson I learned is don't try to peg the channels with your mic.  I remember the days when I tried to set my levels so I would barely see red.  With all digital set ups, I've learned to drop my level back...way back.  You have a lot more leeway that way.

BTW, I'm using a Blue yeti USB.  I've recorded into Audacity, and have borrowed my hip-hop nephews  Pro Tools.  For my best bang, I'm happy with Garage Band.

Good luck!

allen_m - Posted - 02/03/2014:  17:03:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by John Mark Batchelor

 

I have a samson ribbon mic (its a start)...where do I go from here???

 

---

The Samson looks like it requires phantom power...  Do you have any type of pre-amp or DAW interface ?  If not, you'll need one...  I recently bought an Avid Mbox Mini which came with a ProTools Express (light) version...  Seems to work well so far although ProTools is probably too complicated for my needs... Anyway, I bought it on sale for around $150...  Works fine with Audacity, too

polska224 - Posted - 02/03/2014:  17:12:35

Audacity is capable of multiple tracks, it is free though so you don't get EVERYTHING you get with (the extremely expensive) Pro Tools, but there is a very impressive lineup of features that come with it. I've never had any grief with it recording just myself.

I assume your mic has a 1/4" jack, if so, I would recommend using a 1/8" step down. They're cheap, easy to find, and most importantly, no loss in sound quality (if there is, the adaptor's broke!)

John Mark Batchelor - Posted - 02/03/2014:  17:25:16

Some good advice I'm getting. I'm learning as I go along here, so all this helps.

pearcemusic - Posted - 02/03/2014:  17:40:13

If you want to compete with pro studios, you will have to spend a bit if $$. IMO Protools is the cheapest way to go. It is really cheap if you stay with the low end stuff. A decent mic pre/DI with EQ and compression will help you shape the sound (I'm not a fan of USB mics) and your ribbon and a large diaphragm vocal mic might be all you need. The MXL mics are very good for what you spend. Lastly good monitors and a good sounding space to record in are a must. I work in very expensive studios every day AND I have a home studio that competes well with them. It's often very frustrating when u start out because it is NOT as easy as it looks. I've been mixing professionally for 25 years and I still learn something new every day. 

John Mark Batchelor - Posted - 02/03/2014:  20:11:40

I'm enjoying the info!

JoeDownes - Posted - 02/04/2014:  00:34:14

I'd recommend you to have a look at the DAW Reaper. It's a full featured software that's only 60 dollars for personal use. They got an unlimited trial, so you can see if you like it before you pay any money. Along with the audio interface, mics and the monitor speakers I'd recommend a good pair of headphones that you can use for multitracking.

rudy - Posted - 02/04/2014:  03:02:24

Just about any software that you'll find will be able to accomplish what you're asking for.  Getting a good "bluegrass sound" is going to have nothing to do with the software, it's all about peripheral equipment and more than that, recording technique.

I'd recommend that you stop by the home recording page of my website:

bluestemstrings.com/pageRecording1.html

I don't recommend computers for ANYONE new to recording, but if you really have a strong desire to go the computer route I'd recommend that you download and learn to use Audacity.  Once you understand what you're doing then switch to the poor man's Pro Tools, Reaper.

Unless you have a very specific need I'd stay away from pitch correction; play in tune to begin with and avoid the fix-in-the-mix mentality.  You'll save yourself a lot of headaches.

Edited by - rudy on 02/04/2014 03:12:52

rudy - Posted - 02/04/2014:  03:23:55

Here's a nice microphone primer to understand exactly what you're using:

youtube.com/watch?v=2edewYkE_f0

allen_m - Posted - 02/04/2014:  05:05:38

Quick disclaimer re: my previous comment about phantom power...  p14 of the owner's manual does seem to indicate the need for 48v phantom power with that microphone (manual is avail online); but, that IS unusual for most ribbon mic's...  Applying 48v to a ribbon mic that doesn't want it can damage it...  You didn't indicate whether you'd used the mic successfully at all or not yet...  If not, just be certain before you apply 48v that it really requires it...  Trying to use it without power 1st would of-course be safe...

<edit>  also from the manual...  

Quote:

Powering the VR88 

The VR88 features an active head amplifier and therefore needs to be operated by connecting a phantom power supply.

Edited by - allen_m on 02/04/2014 05:11:39

John Mark Batchelor - Posted - 02/04/2014:  06:36:43

Man filling up here! Thanks for all the info! Im taking notes... And I'm sure I'll make a lot of mistakes too! Lol

rudy - Posted - 02/04/2014:  06:41:09

The comments about Ribbon mics that are in the video link I posted are drawn from higher end ribbons.  Samson and other companies wanted to capture the desire for inexpensive ribbon mics so their designs are based on "robust" copies of standard designs that are produced cheaply in China and are less sensitive to being easily damaged.  Some of the high end traditional ribbons do need the precautionary warning about fragility and they are generally much lower in output level than other mics.  The import mic designers solved two problems by incorporating a pre amp directly in the mic body, therefore requiring phantom power to boost the inherently low output signal of the ribbon and at the same time eliminating the danger from powering a ribbon that doesn't need it.

Unfortunately the thicker ribbon material in combination with sub-par electronics often couple to degrade some of those attributes used to describe ribbon mics in general.

ANY ribbon is still more susceptible to damage from plosives or other sounds with loud transients aimed directly at the ribbon, even the Chinese ribbons.  It's the nature of the beast and why I posted the video link.

5-Picker Tim - Posted - 02/04/2014:  07:05:42

John,

You didn't mention much about your equipment other than the mic.  Maybe if possible, let us know what/how you plan to record.

By that I mean... do you plan to record multiple tracks at once and how many?

Do you plan to record directly to a computer?

Are you looking to patch effects/drum beat in while recording?

Without knowing much about what I asked above and if you plan to record directly to a computer through some sort of interface, I'll also second the recommendation for Reaper as a DAW.

It is just about as full featured as you'll ever need for a home studio and it's only $60.  The trial version (30 days) is the complete program and lets you use everything before you buy.

If you are looking to record to a portable digital mixer/recorder setup, look at the Zoom family of portable recorders.

I have both a Zoom H4n and a R24 that EASILY records quality digital tracks in about as many different formats as you can imagine.

While both have some handy editing features built in, it really is much easier after recording, to import the digital tracks into something like Reaper for editing/mixdown purposes.

Hope this helps...

Tim

John Mark Batchelor - Posted - 02/04/2014:  14:30:22

I have a mic and CPU but don't want to do the simple boss/zoom mixing console systems. I sell those here at the store and I don't like them.. Is like to do multitrack recording as well and do not need drums.

rudy - Posted - 02/04/2014:  17:39:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by John Mark Batchelor

I have a mic and CPU but don't want to do the simple boss/zoom mixing console systems. I sell those here at the store and I don't like them.. Is like to do multitrack recording as well and do not need drums.

---

John, What's a "simple boss/zoom mixing console system" that you sell and don't like?

If you want to do simple multi-track recording you should investigate the Zoom R series of recorders. They are almost as simple as a cassette recorder to multi-track and overdub with.  If you don't anticipate any more than 8 tracks you can work with the Zoom R8.

After you do your basic recording the resulting wav files are easily imported into a computer-based DAW where you can easily mix, edit, top, tail, and add effects before creating a master wav file.  That file can then be converted to mp3 or any other commonly used audio format within your DAW if it has the right codecs present, or from another conversion program.

5 Picker Tim stated that the R24 "EASILY records quality digital tracks in about as many different formats as you can imagine."

That is NOT the case, the R series only records 16 or 24 bit at 44.1 or 48 khz.  Very useful, but it's not representative of many formats that many recorders commonly us such as mp3.  For any recorder you need to understand what you are purchasing and its limitations.

Basic recording isn't all that difficult, you just have to jump in and get your feet wet.

John Mark Batchelor - Posted - 02/05/2014:  05:40:27

I've done a lot of basic recoding on stuff like the br-800 and 1200 but they don't seem to give me what I'm looking for seems really dry yet I'm green to alot of things too

im looking to do something a little more professional looking. There are no studios, that are any good in my area and that serves up a decent market for recording along with my own aspirations or recording

Edited by - John Mark Batchelor on 02/05/2014 05:43:42

5-Picker Tim - Posted - 02/05/2014:  07:15:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by rudy

5 Picker Tim stated that the R24 "EASILY records quality digital tracks in about as many different formats as you can imagine."

That is NOT the case, the R series only records 16 or 24 bit at 44.1 or 48 khz.  Very useful, but it's not representative of many formats that many recorders commonly us such as mp3.  For any recorder you need to understand what you are purchasing and its limitations.

 

---

Rudy, you are right that the R series doesn't record in .mp3 format.  My statement was intended to point out that the Zoom DOES INDEED easily record in the necessary formats for multi-track, CD quality recording.  I personally don't know of any studios/ pro sources that record tracks in .mp3 format and then expect to edit, add effects, pitch correct, mix or otherwise manipulate the digital data for a said project.  I don't know what kind of a project Mark ultimately wants to wind up with but if he's looking for CD quality, laying the basic tracks in .mp3 format isn't the way to go.  His original post stated he was interested in pitch correction, effects and overdubbing.  These are not processes you want to do with a .mp3 file and expect good results.

I suppose I figured from the OP's original post, he wanted to do more than what most 10¢ .mp3 format recorders are capable of.  Pardon me.

Tim

J.Albert - Posted - 02/05/2014:  18:13:38

John, you might give a look at Steinberg's new interface, the UR44:

steinberg.net/en/products/audi...ur44.html

Comes bundled with Cubase, which has considerable power but is relatively easy to learn with. And it excels at editing, which will help with the multi-tracks.

I believe the list price is $399, but I would expect to see a street price of around $300.

May not be available yet, but should be very soon.

rudy - Posted - 02/06/2014:  05:09:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by 5-Picker Tim

quote:

---

Originally posted by rudy

5 Picker Tim stated that the R24 "EASILY records quality digital tracks in about as many different formats as you can imagine."

That is NOT the case, the R series only records 16 or 24 bit at 44.1 or 48 khz.  Very useful, but it's not representative of many formats that many recorders commonly us such as mp3.  For any recorder you need to understand what you are purchasing and its limitations. 

---

Rudy, you are right that the R series doesn't record in .mp3 format.  My statement was intended to point out that the Zoom DOES INDEED easily record in the necessary formats for multi-track, CD quality recording.  I personally don't know of any studios/ pro sources that record tracks in .mp3 format and then expect to edit, add effects, pitch correct, mix or otherwise manipulate the digital data for a said project.  I don't know what kind of a project Mark ultimately wants to wind up with but if he's looking for CD quality, laying the basic tracks in .mp3 format isn't the way to go.  His original post stated he was interested in pitch correction, effects and overdubbing.  These are not processes you want to do with a .mp3 file and expect good results.

 I suppose I figured from the OP's original post, he wanted to do more than what most 10¢ .mp3 format recorders are capable of.  Pardon me.

 Tim

---

Hi, Tim.  I wasn't attempting to pick on you.  You did an excellent job of reading between the lines for the original post.

As you are probably aware of, many of the folks on this forum who might be looking for a recorder are ultimately looking to post tunes to the hangout, so it's necessary to be clear about details that might be interpreted incorrectly.  It's a complicated enough topic for us older members, so I just don't want anyone to base a recorder purchase choice by thinking that they will purchase a R series because it will allow them to also produce mp3 format.  The H series of Zoom portable recorders DO allow you to directly record mp3 format for web use.

As you are aware of, format is quite a different thing from bit depth and sampling rate, which the R series allows you to choose between.

I also try to include that the Zoom R series is NOT a good recorder to edit audio on.  It's a great audio capture device, and editing is best done by moving the tracks to a DAW.

5-Picker Tim - Posted - 02/06/2014:  07:31:49

Rudy... Thanks, no problem, I didn't think you were.

And I really shouldn't have used the term 'format'  to paint that statement with such a broad stroke.  I should have been more clear.

Yes sampling rate/bit depth are far different than formats used for audio files and as John (or anyone else just getting into home recording) will find out, recording and editing basic tracks are best done in a file type that doesn't include any kind of file size compression.

For typical home studio recording, .wav seems to be the norm but higher end studios sometimes use other uncompressed types.

You want to start out with as much raw data as possible.

Once the file is processed (effects, editing, corrections) and it is determined what the end result of the file will be, it can be converted/compressed to a much smaller file size (format) such as .mp3, .wma, .ra and etcetera typically used on web sites such as the Hangout.

I'll also restate what I said earlier (and rudy mentioned as well) the Zoom R series are not the ideal platform for editing.

They do a fabulous job of recording and allowing overdubs (punch in-punch out) but editing is just so much easier imported to a DAW where you can see and stack the wave files to do whatever edits necessary.

I really like the Zoom products and for a beginner, I believe these units have a far smaller learning curve than trying to learn interfaces and software, all the while holding your breath HOPING your CPU will meet the requirements.

Anyway,  John Mark, as you begin this journey, ask as many questions as necessary.  There are many knowledgeable folks on here who have already traveled the path and will help guide you along the way.

Tim

rudy - Posted - 02/06/2014:  09:05:29

Big 10-4, Tim.

One thing you stated which cannot be emphasized enough is your comment about learning interfaces and software.  Computers are great for editing tasks, but they are NOT friendly devices for the average beginner to physically record with.

The actual act of PLAYING is difficult enough to do (nailing a take in the process) without having ANY concerns about software, settings, signal flow, levels, IF you are getting that perfect take nailed without audio "glitches", etc. etc. etc.

A portable recorder does what it is designed to do very well, and that's to allow you to record without worrying about any of those things.  It doesn't do e-mail, play games, constantly check for system updates, scan for viruses, check to see if there's a CD in your player, or any of the other miriad of other background tasks that can end up in unsuccessful recording attempts.

Do yourself a BIG  favor and make recording a two part process.  Capture your audio, THEN use the computer to graphically do what it does best, where a small hiccup only means that you make another attempt at editing, while your audio remains untouched and without noises, clicks, hiccups, glitches, pops, creaks, moans or groans that can result from using the "confounding box" as a recording device.

J.Albert - Posted - 02/07/2014:  12:31:56

Rudy wrote:
[[ One thing you stated which cannot be emphasized enough is your comment about learning interfaces and software. Computers are great for editing tasks, but they are NOT friendly devices for the average beginner to physically record with. ]]

Having a Mac to start out with makes things MUCH easier.
That isn't to say that's there isn't a "learning curve" when using any computer with an interface and DAW software.
But again, I sense the obstacles are easier to overcome on the Mac.

It also helps to have an "integrated" hardware/software option. For instance, most Steinberg interfaces integrate automatically with Steinberg's Cubase DAW software. Some of the interfaces even have "transport control buttons" on the interface itself.

Regarding audio file formats -- this is relatively easy.
Record in WAV or AIFF format.
Record in 24 bit, 44.1khz if you have it.
If you don't have 24 bit available, use 16 bit.

Also do mixdowns in 24 bit, 44.1khz

Don't use mp3 except for preparing a file for posting somewhere, such as on the Hangout.

When you do create an mp3 file, bear in mind that the lower the bitrate, the lower the quality. I never use a bitrate lower than 256, even though the resulting file takes up more space. I want the file to sound reasonably good. I listen to far FAR too many files posted by users here on BHO that have a good quality performance, but the posting is marred or nearly unlistenable (at least to me) because they used a ridiculously low bitrate.

Goldstarman - Posted - 02/09/2014:  11:26:13

John, once you get a good program such as cube-base, or Sonar, or whatever you choose then you need a interface with good mic pres OR one and a seperate mic pre. To get one of those that the pros use like API or something in that range your looking at 2K for just that for lie a API A2D which is what a few of those guys have, I know Wyatt rice at Rice recording uses that, and alot of those guys uses

I do know Ron Stewart uses a little mic pre he got from Germany from EBay and it can be bought for about 400-500 bucks, and he uses two Gefell mics. Ive found for the banjo the mics are real important to get the right sound. I can also tell you ive talked with Wyatt rice, Randy Khors and alot of these guys about recording banjo and they all say if you get the right mics and the right pres you dont have to do any EQing on the banjo, and if you do its just to add a little top end for sparkle.

Ric in Richmond - Posted - 02/10/2014:  05:08:17

Simple interface for any pc or mac from Yamaha with some basic mixing capabilities, Phantom Power, 1/4 trs inputs. Comes with Cubase.  Easy to use.

amazon.com/Yamaha-Audiogram-6-...aha+mixer

Edited by - Ric in Richmond on 02/10/2014 05:09:05

MrNatch3L - Posted - 02/13/2014:  12:37:46

My arsenal: Mac, Reaper, Presonus AudioBox and FireStudio Mobile interfaces, 2 large and 1 small condenser mics... AT I think, don't remember and they're not handy just now. Not hugely expensive models. My best investment so far has been Ozone 5 mastering plugin. Improved my production quality exponentially. I will never sound like a Nashville studio, but it's not at all bad considering how little $$ I have invested.

Record acoustic instruments in stereo... I mean 2 mics on separate channels. It will take some experimenting to find the sweet spot for each instrument in your space.

Have fun!

John Mark Batchelor - Posted - 02/14/2014:  12:05:26

ive enjoyed the responses!

Ron Stanfield - Posted - 03/05/2014:  14:04:27

For what it's worth this Old Timer uses a SAMSON condenser mic ($100). I know absolutely nothing about recording, meaning I don't use ear phones or get mess with all the settings available.

The mic plugs through USB direct to hard disk. Here's how I work:
1. I record a song from beginning to end. When I mess up a line I re-record that particular verse until I get it right and keep on going till the end.
2. Once done I save the WAV form and do a backup (Oh Susanna and Susanna 2).
3. Using Wave Pad Sound Editor I take out major glitches from Oh Susanna, save and back that up as
Oh Susanna 3. Going back to Oh Susanna I do the fine tuning. Once satisfied I go "Amplify" to beef up
sound and save. I delete the backup versions save the final WAV for CDs. That's it....I don't use all
that other stuff I don't understand. Works for me as a hobby...and for input to CD Baby. Hope this
helps.