From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 10/05/2013:  08:06:55

In her book, Up the Neck, Janet Davis on page 66 says "The first step in working out an up-the-neck arrangement which includes the melody is to pick out the moldy notes n the banjo in the up-the-neck are of the fingerboard. Generally those notes can be found along one string (e.g., the second string). The roll patterns can then be added. 

In Tom Adams great up the neck series in Banjo Newsletter  (High Five) he starts off showing and teaching the melody notes on the first string. I don't know if this is an indication that this is the best string to look for melody notes on.

In Jack Hatfield's up-the-neck instruction in his Bluegrass Banjo Method Book Two, he shows some early songs using strings 1, 2, & 3 to get the melody notes.

My question is this: are the melody notes generally played on one string and if so what string? Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Ken

Edited by - From Greylock to Bean Blossom on 10/05/2013 08:08:39

MOUNTAIN GOAT - Posted - 10/05/2013:  10:08:42

I think you just showed there are more than one way to skin this cat. As I am learning, I find the more I know, the more I can use.

Jack Baker - Posted - 10/05/2013:  10:26:34

Hi Ken,

Usually, at least in Scruggs style, the melody notes are played on the 1st and 2nd strings and sometimes the 3rd string. It depends on the arrangement...Hope this helps...Jack

As posted:  In Jack Hatfield's up-the-neck instruction in his Bluegrass Banjo Method Book Two, he shows some early songs using strings 1, 2, & 3 to get the melody notes.

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Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

 

Edited by - Jack Baker on 10/05/2013 10:27:19

beegee - Posted - 10/05/2013:  10:27:11

That's one advantage to learning scales and inversions. Melody notes are where you find them.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 10/05/2013:  11:49:45

quote:

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Originally posted by jbaker7

 

Hi Ken,

Usually, at least in Scruggs style, the melody notes are played on the 1st and 2nd strings and sometimes the 3rd string. It depends on the arrangement...Hope this helps...Jack

As posted:  In Jack Hatfield's up-the-neck instruction in his Bluegrass Banjo Method Book Two, he shows some early songs using strings 1, 2, & 3 to get the melody notes.

 

 

 

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Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

 

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Thanks Jack,

It helps because when options are endless it is confusing for a novice. You gave me some boundaries.

ken

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 10/05/2013:  11:53:00

quote:

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Originally posted by beegee

 

That's one advantage to learning scales and inversions. Melody notes are where you find them.

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Bob,

If I can follow up with a question or two. By inversions you mean the same chord in different parts of the neck with different forms (,f, d, Bar) correct?

I thought scales were primarily for melodic players. By scales do you mean the notes that can be accessed while in a chord shape or with a variation of that shape/

Thanks again,

ken

beegee - Posted - 10/05/2013:  13:24:24

Yep. Once you see that the chord shapes include the notes you want, scales help you find your way around the fingerboard. I tend to think in Nashville Numbering where I add and subtract frets to get  where I want to be.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 10/05/2013:  16:00:45

quote:

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Originally posted by beegee

 

Yep. Once you see that the chord shapes include the notes you want, scales help you find your way around the fingerboard. I tend to think in Nashville Numbering where I add and subtract frets to get  where I want to be.

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Thanks Bob, I will go start playing with some chord shapes.

Ken

Dave Magram - Posted - 10/06/2013:  00:40:03

quote:

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Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

 

In her book, Up the Neck, Janet Davis on page 66 says "The first step in working out an up-the-neck arrangement which includes the melody is to pick out the moldy notes n the banjo in the up-the-neck are of the fingerboard. Generally those notes can be found along one string (e.g., the second string). The roll patterns can then be added. 

In Tom Adams great up the neck series in Banjo Newsletter  (High Five) he starts off showing and teaching the melody notes on the first string. I don't know if this is an indication that this is the best string to look for melody notes on.

In Jack Hatfield's up-the-neck instruction in his Bluegrass Banjo Method Book Two, he shows some early songs using strings 1, 2, & 3 to get the melody notes.

My question is this: are the melody notes generally played on one string and if so what string? Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Ken

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Ken, it really depends on the melody of the song.

In general, if the melody begins on the 4th or 3rd string in the first position (frets 1 to 5) in G, then the D-shaped G chord up the neck (frets 7 to 9) will probably be the most useful as a starting point. As I recall, this revelation occurred to me when I was learning Earl’s up-the-neck solo to “Fireball Mail” from the Foggy Mtn. Banjo album. I’d suggest learning Earl’s up-the-neck solo and identifying how the two positions relate to each other.

In general, if the melody begins on the 2nd or 1st string in the first position (frets 1 to 5), then the barre-shaped G chord up the neck (fret 12) will probably be the most useful as a starting point. A good example of this is “Lonesome Road Blues” also from the Foggy Mtn. Banjo album. Although Earl didn’t record a first position solo of this song on Foggy Mtn. Banjo , you might want to try to work one out. Simply find the notes an octave lower in the first position.

I don’t have any of the instructional material you mentioned, but I suspect that Janet Davis may have been talking about songs in the key of G in which the melody centers around the 3rd string in the first position in G. These tend to use the 2nd string up the neck to find the G, A, and B notes while sounding the open first string (D) as a sort of second drone string to keep the rhythm going.

This focus on the 2nd string is also very useful when transposing certain songs from G to D, such as “Blue Ridge Cabin Home” that begin on the 3rd string in the key of G. This is typically done to accommodate female vocalists’ higher range; Ron Block does a lot of this with Alison Krauss, for example.

I’ve attached two examples of “Worried Man Blues”. In the first clip I play it in G in first position, then play it up-the-neck in G utilizing the 2nd string against the open 1st string. Then in the second clip I take that up-the-neck G version and play it down-the-neck in the key of D (banjo tuned aDGBD), again using the 1st string open.

It hard to put all of this into just words. It may be clearer if you listen to the examples I’ve mentioned. Let me know if you have any questions.

-Dave

WorriedManBlues---G

Worried Man Blues(2)---D

Kemo Sabe - Posted - 10/06/2013:  03:41:59

Thanks Dave - great post!  Phil

phb - Posted - 10/06/2013:  03:59:10

There are two ways of getting higher notes on a banjo: moving up one string and up the neck. If you move up 12 frets, you can find all the same notes you were playing in the first position laid out in the same formation one octave higher. But that would sound boring if you always did that. Thus, you usually use both ways of getting higher notes at the same time. E.g. you only move up 7 or 8 frets instead of 12 but also move up one string at the same time. Again all the melody notes will be there one octave higher than where you started but their pattern will be different as will be the filler notes on adjacient strings. This gives more of a change than just moving everything up an octave.

In theory you could also move down a string and up by something like 16 frets if the melody notes are on the first two strings in the first position but I don't know any example where this is done.

steve davis - Posted - 10/06/2013:  04:02:44

There is more than one location for the same note.
I choose groups of notes that let me leave my fretting fingers in one place for as long as possible.

Economy of motion.

Rich Weill - Posted - 10/06/2013:  06:15:03

Ken, why don't you try this:  Choose a few simple songs you know well.  By "know well," I mean know the chord progression and the melody.  Don't worry about the rest of the banjo arrangement for now.  Hold the chords of the song up the neck on the first three strings using only your index, middle, and ring fingers.  So, if it's either an F- or D-shape, use your ring finger on the 1st string instead of your pinkie.  Leave your left pinkie free.

Then pick the melody, just the melody, while holding the correct chord.  If the melody isn't in the chord, it will be on a fret just above the chord that your free left pinkie should be able to reach (particularly since, up the neck, the frets are closer together).  In other words, even if you could play that melody note on the 1st string below the frets you are holding, choose to play it on the 2nd string three frets higher (where your pinkie can reach it).

Try doing this with different inversions of the chord in different up-the-neck locations.  Get a feel for finding melody notes out of the three chord shapes.  But always try to keep your left pinkie out of the chord shape.  It is an extremely dextrous and versatile finger.  After a while, it will know exactly where those non-chord melody notes lie, seemingly on its own.

gclaunch - Posted - 10/06/2013:  07:32:56

Interesting question from the OP and I found the response by Dave and Rich very informative and should help anybody else out there with the same question.....
However, to continue from the bottom of page 66 of her up the neck book she says, "...I usually recommend finding the melody along the second string first so that it will easily fit the forward roll or its alternate, by picking the melody note with the right index finger and playing harmony notes with the middle finger and thumb." While not preempting any other ideas and thoughts, it gives you a starting place and a reason for looking at the 2nd string for melody.
Also, in concert with some of the other posts, on page 80, in working with Wreck of the old 97, she says,"....melody notes for this tune can be found within the chord position for each specific chord in this song, i.e. hold the G chord at the 12th fret to play the first measure....", and she goes on from there.
My intent in this post was not to contradict any other post, but to supplement and add to this topic. For those interested in moving on up the neck, I highly recommend this book, Up the Neck by Janet Davis.

MrManners - Posted - 10/06/2013:  08:19:31

first and foremost what has been already stated is the best way to render a melody in the most accepted way off rendering a melody,thus using the forward roll type pattern.Since you are wanting to streamline your efforts  it is the correct advice for sure.

 however  the melody can be rendered from just about anywhere,i like to get all the way over to the 4th and 5th string  but this works better with alternating thumb,and a lot of folks  don't care much for that route.Here is Don Reno doing a little of it    youtu.be/vTlWCHXMc3s- it  in my opinion it brings out the melody more correct sometimes,but adds a factor of  no syncopated  delights.

It came out pretty good in my last break to Georgia Brown where i go all the way over to the fifth in a chord melody fashion--- my 2 cents  not preaching any'' this is the way to do it gospel '' Tom

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 10/06/2013:  10:32:12

quote:

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Originally posted by gclaunch

 

Interesting question from the OP and I found the response by Dave and Rich very informative and should help anybody else out there with the same question.....

However, to continue from the bottom of page 66 of her up the neck book she says, "...I usually recommend finding the melody along the second string first so that it will easily fit the forward roll or its alternate, by picking the melody note with the right index finger and playing harmony notes with the middle finger and thumb." While not preempting any other ideas and thoughts, it gives you a starting place and a reason for looking at the 2nd string for melody.

Also, in concert with some of the other posts, on page 80, in working with Wreck of the old 97, she says,"....melody notes for this tune can be found within the chord position for each specific chord in this song, i.e. hold the G chord at the 12th fret to play the first measure....", and she goes on from there.

My intent in this post was not to contradict any other post, but to supplement and add to this topic. For those interested in moving on up the neck, I highly recommend this book, Up the Neck by Janet Davis.

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Gerald,

Thank you for taking the time to read my post, think about it and respond, You did not contradict me but corrected and helped me. Thank you for your time and help.

Ken

gclaunch - Posted - 10/06/2013:  14:21:50

You are very welcome, sir........... I also learn a lot by reading the posts and how other people respond to them. Best of luck to you in your playing and learning.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 10/06/2013:  15:03:09

quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Magram

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

 

In her book, Up the Neck, Janet Davis on page 66 says "The first step in working out an up-the-neck arrangement which includes the melody is to pick out the moldy notes n the banjo in the up-the-neck are of the fingerboard. Generally those notes can be found along one string (e.g., the second string). The roll patterns can then be added. 

In Tom Adams great up the neck series in Banjo Newsletter  (High Five) he starts off showing and teaching the melody notes on the first string. I don't know if this is an indication that this is the best string to look for melody notes on.

In Jack Hatfield's up-the-neck instruction in his Bluegrass Banjo Method Book Two, he shows some early songs using strings 1, 2, & 3 to get the melody notes.

My question is this: are the melody notes generally played on one string and if so what string? Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Ken

---

Ken, it really depends on the melody of the song.

In general, if the melody begins on the 4th or 3rd string in the first position (frets 1 to 5) in G, then the D-shaped G chord up the neck (frets 7 to 9) will probably be the most useful as a starting point. As I recall, this revelation occurred to me when I was learning Earl’s up-the-neck solo to “Fireball Mail” from the Foggy Mtn. Banjo album. I’d suggest learning Earl’s up-the-neck solo and identifying how the two positions relate to each other.

In general, if the melody begins on the 2nd or 1st string in the first position (frets 1 to 5), then the barre-shaped G chord up the neck (fret 12) will probably be the most useful as a starting point. A good example of this is “Lonesome Road Blues” also from the Foggy Mtn. Banjo album. Although Earl didn’t record a first position solo of this song on Foggy Mtn. Banjo , you might want to try to work one out. Simply find the notes an octave lower in the first position.

I don’t have any of the instructional material you mentioned, but I suspect that Janet Davis may have been talking about songs in the key of G in which the melody centers around the 3rd string in the first position in G. These tend to use the 2nd string up the neck to find the G, A, and B notes while sounding the open first string (D) as a sort of second drone string to keep the rhythm going.

This focus on the 2nd string is also very useful when transposing certain songs from G to D, such as “Blue Ridge Cabin Home” that begin on the 3rd string in the key of G. This is typically done to accommodate female vocalists’ higher range; Ron Block does a lot of this with Alison Krauss, for example.

I’ve attached two examples of “Worried Man Blues”. In the first clip I play it in G in first position, then play it up-the-neck in G utilizing the 2nd string against the open 1st string. Then in the second clip I take that up-the-neck G version and play it down-the-neck in the key of D (banjo tuned aDGBD), again using the 1st string open.

It hard to put all of this into just words. It may be clearer if you listen to the examples I’ve mentioned. Let me know if you have any questions.

-Dave

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Dave,

Thanks again and again for your time, knowledge, thorough writing and advice. You have always been a big help to me and I know to many others. This will get put into my notebook (as I have said, YOU should have  book out) and will be practiced and thought about.

thanks again,

Ken