Chris Quinn - Posted - 10/01/2013:  19:30:10

It has been a while since I posted something like this.  I hope you enjoy it.

Please read all of the following before clicking on the links.  Then click the links in order.  I just think the ideas expressed here will make better sense if readers take in the info this way.

Here is a link to a newly posted Youtube video of The Foggy Hogtown Boys playing "Billy in the Low Ground".  Behind the guitar player's solo (at 2:34 into the video), I am using a technique I picked up from Earl Scruggs.  This was the first occasion I have had to hear what my newly acquired technique sounded like and I wanted to share my experience.

I recently took inspiration from the late Earl Scruggs with regard to an aspect of his back-up playing.  Scruggs would sometimes play very cool, highly syncopated rolling patterns over muted strings.  For the best example I can think of, go to this link for the  studio version of Peking Fling by the Earl Scruggs Review; with Vassar and Uncle Josh!!!  Listen to Earl play this back-up technique behind Vassar's flat-picked fiddle solo at 00:48 into the youtube clip; right after the harmonica solo.  This precise rhythmic back-up picking; without the incumbrance of bluegrass banjo's usual notes or sustain; reveals one more of Earl's techniques that can sound great in a variety of backup settings.

In my experience with this rolling-muted back-up, I have found that it works well in a few places, but it works particularly well behind a guitar solo.  Like Jimmy Martin's rhythm guitar behind a banjo, this banjo back-up technique seems to reciprocate for the guitar soloist by helping drive a guitar solo; the guitar player's 8th notes are supported by the banjo's muted 8th notes and occasional pinches.  The banjo player just has to be careful to really keep out of the way and not let the back-up clutter the solo.  A band always has to watch the dynamic stacking of melody and rhythm so as not to create a one dimensional wall of sound.  By using this technique with respect to the overall sound, the banjo can stay clear of the frequencies shared by both the banjo and guitar.  And, it is something else to do other than just the chop style back-up pinches, accented by the occasional up the neck lick.

Scruggs style rolling-muted backup fills a distinct rhythmic element in bluegrass.  And, it sounds like nothing a mandolin player, or fiddle player or Dobro player would play in their back-up.  It is uniquely banjo.  This is a technique introduced by Scruggs which has, to my knowledge, been relatively unexplored compared to the depth of exploration given almost every other aspect of Scruggs' banjo licks, vocabulary, and techniques.

Think about a very young Earl Scruggs; listening to those old Benny Goodman recordings which Earl professed to love; recordings which inspired him to record "Farewell Blues" and "Bugle Call Rag".  While he was taking in the melody, Earl surely noticed Gene Krupa on the drums.  Krupa himself spent formative years with early 20th century jazz banio player Eddie Condon.  

Well, well, well.  What a broad circle..................

Earl is still my teacher.

Edited by - Chris Quinn on 10/02/2013 06:44:55

banjo1971 - Posted - 10/01/2013:  19:44:18

Hey Chris,

That's a very cool technique.  That kind of vamping is so great.  I've heard it before but can't place the songs in my mind right now.

Earl Scruggs shared so much of what he had listened to.  He put it into a language some people can understand, but of which all people can appreciate the sounds.

Thanks for bringing this out.

D Knecht

Edited by - banjo1971 on 10/01/2013 19:46:49

Chris Quinn - Posted - 10/01/2013:  19:49:09

Doug Knecht! You are a fave of mine.

banjo1971 - Posted - 10/01/2013:  19:55:15

Chris, it's good to hear from you!!

These obscure licks are just like bubbles overflowing a glass of water - he had so much overflow of music in him.

Edited by - banjo1971 on 10/01/2013 20:04:40

Chris Quinn - Posted - 10/01/2013:  19:56:44

The well was fresh!

Pickin furry paws - Posted - 10/01/2013:  19:57:52

Earl did this behind several instruments, I believe Dobro too.

Chris Quinn - Posted - 10/01/2013:  20:15:22

Let's compose a song list wherein Earl uses this technique.  

I know my Scruggs, but I can't reference the specific point that Earl used rolling-muted back-up.  I am keen to learn.

BTW: I would like to draw attention to my having given a name to this Earl Scruggs technique; rolling-muted back-up.  I just want the banjo history books of the future to recognize my scholarly work here!  Ha-ha. 

Ok, name those songs where Earl used Rolling-Muted Back-Up.

Banjov1 - Posted - 10/01/2013:  22:01:52

So specifically... how are you doing the muted rolls? Is it all left hand not fully pressing the frets? or are you using your right hand palm to somehow mute.

jwoods - Posted - 10/01/2013:  22:18:03

You're not fretting the strings, it's just light pressure on the strings in the appropriate chord shape and position on the fretboard, and doing a roll.

Edited by - jwoods on 10/01/2013 22:23:15

MOUNTAIN GOAT - Posted - 10/01/2013:  23:02:07

Fantastic!!!

banjobeat63 - Posted - 10/02/2013:  00:38:17

Great Backup!!!

gsoscott - Posted - 10/02/2013:  01:13:19

Chris, I can't comment much on the backup style as I'm just learning. But the video of you guys is Great! and I really hope to see you play someday. Are there more vids of the group out there?

Thanks, Scott

gospelman97 - Posted - 10/02/2013:  03:18:23

Great little technique. Here is a workshop video of Ron Stewart talking about this technique and how Earl used it in Rueben on Foggy Mountain Banjo behind the dobro break.  Ron gives you a little closer look at the intricacies of the technique.  Enjoy!

youtube.com/watch?v=rBcNuy32Ia0

​By the way, thanks to Matthew (Picking Furry Paws) for posting these workshop videos!

Edited by - gospelman97 on 10/02/2013 03:28:36

Barnet in SoCal - Posted - 10/02/2013:  06:06:55

Just came across this thread... thanks for posting, and especially for that cool link to Peking Fling. I'd never heard of, much less heard that track. It's an odd track for sure, but it does highlight the technique well. Mentioning Gene Krupa creating a backup rhythm feel like this makes complete sense. And Chris... nice playing with the band! Well done!

I first heard this technique on the Boxcars "Alone and Wondering Why" and I just flipped. Ron Stewart does it by putting his left hand fingers in chord positions so that the muted strings still sound the chord, as you see in the posted video of Ron's class. But in Peking Fling it sounds like Earl just put a finger straight over the neck, like a capo, when he lightly muted the strings. Listen for the pitch of the muted notes in Peking Fling, and you'll hear that they are of a chord that's not in the song itself. If you listen to Ron in "Alone and Wondering Why", underneath the guitar solo you'll hear that his left hand is fingering the chords of the song as he demonstrates in the video.

This is now part of my bag 'o backup tricks, although I use it sparingly so as not to overdo it, or dilute its impact. And gospelman97 beat me to the punch on reposting this clip from the workshop. This clip is Ron's answer to the question I'd just asked about the technique ... that soft voice you hear asking a follow up question or two would in fact be yours truly... Ron's workshop was the highlight of the weekend for sure. And what about that SkilletHead? Yow! That's the original flathead, not a Yates.

Barnet in SoCal
___________________________
-->Earl: the one… the only….

Chris Quinn - Posted - 10/02/2013:  06:54:46

The way I am playing this rolling-muted back-up is to let my fingers sit on the strings without actually fretting them.  I just form my normal chords and pick rolling patterns over the chord changes.  This is something you can really practice with a metronome; and it is very revealing as to whether or not you are pickin' in time because of the immediate decay of the notes.  You are either on the beat or you're not.

I have found that trying to think like a drummer helps open up rhythmic ideas for this technique.  In my practice, I recently tried this technique over Steve Gadd's drumming on Paul Simon's "50 Ways To Leave Your Lover" .  That was fun!

Fathand - Posted - 10/04/2013:  10:15:34

Thanks for this Chris, you are right it does work well behind a quieter instrument solo like a guitar. In the Peking Fling, which I have on a cassette, I think I had thought that was some kind  snare drum and brushes, it has an effect like that. I had occasionally Vamped with a completely muted strings for quiet instruments but I will give this a try. Also Gene Krupa is my favourite drummer ever.

5-Picker Tim - Posted - 10/04/2013:  11:44:52

Great stuff Chris.  Always a pleasure to hear you and what you've got up your sleeve.

Tim

mikey5string - Posted - 10/04/2013:  15:29:28

Great video BTW. Recording quality, playing, grooming ; )

And cool technique. Always looking for different ways to approach backup aside from the standard "boom-chick"

thanks

Jonny5 - Posted - 10/04/2013:  16:20:30

Bill Evans gives this some attention on a "Power Pickin'" DVD (ACUTAB). Warns to use sparingly. Oh ya. He called it 'popcorn' back-up for it's popping sound.

Edited by - Jonny5 on 10/04/2013 16:25:11

Jonny5 - Posted - 10/04/2013:  16:32:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fathand

 

Thanks for this Chris, you are right it does work well behind a quieter instrument solo like a guitar. In the Peking Fling, which I have on a cassette, I think I had thought that was some kind  snare drum and brushes, it has an effect like that. I had occasionally Vamped with a completely muted strings for quiet instruments but I will give this a try. Also Gene Krupa is my favourite drummer ever.

---

Yes Gene could really 'Sing, Sing, Sing' with his sticks. Lots of rythmic ideas for ya there Chris. Thanks for addressing this topic.

Fathand - Posted - 10/05/2013:  09:07:48

OK , So I tried this yesterday. I do wind up with a problem I get the odd harmonic.  Like making a G chord at the 7th fret, I get a harmonic on the 3rd string. D chord at 10th fret I get harmonics from 1st and 4th strings on 12th fret. I am trying to keep my fingers back behind the frets but not much luck unless I just lay my whole left hand across all the strings but then it doesn't seem to sound as nice.

Any Ideas?

lazyarcher - Posted - 10/05/2013:  11:55:56

Good technique Chris.

I learned this years ago from Almundo The Magnifico. He used this technique on the Live at McCabes album /Black Mt.Rag behind the guitar solo.

Another prime example of the percussive ability of the banjo to influence the overall sound of a band.

FiveStringPop - Posted - 10/05/2013:  18:06:35

Here is "Lonesome Ruben" by the Earl Scruggs Review.  Earl uses this technique behind several instruments: acoustic guitar, dobro, and electric guitar.

youtube.com/watch?v=2xOK6-F-p1M

rstieg - Posted - 10/07/2013:  22:49:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fathand

 

OK , So I tried this yesterday. I do wind up with a problem I get the odd harmonic.  Like making a G chord at the 7th fret, I get a harmonic on the 3rd string. D chord at 10th fret I get harmonics from 1st and 4th strings on 12th fret. I am trying to keep my fingers back behind the frets but not much luck unless I just lay my whole left hand across all the strings but then it doesn't seem to sound as nice.

Any Ideas?

---

It's been awhile since I heard Bill Evans discuss this, but I believe he recommended a loose barre across the strings up the neck at a point that will not give you any harmonics. Since this is essentially a percussive sound and you're not playing any actual notes, there's really no need to form chords at all. 

Chris Quinn - Posted - 10/08/2013:  11:31:50

Thanks to all for sharing your thoughts on this topic.  I am glad to know that this is of interest to others.

A loose barre across the strings does work well if you want to want to limit the sound to only the percussive sound of the muted strings.  I do that some of the time.

I often like to hold the muted notes of the actual chords so that I can drop an occasional note, lick, or fill into the equation.  I also feel that I can hear the muted note by fingering the chords and using my individual fingertips to fret the muted notes.  By switching chords, I can hear the percussive pop of the string, but also a sonic halo of the actual note that I am muting.  I feel that by holding the muted chord, I am actually getting percussive arpeggios; yet the focus is still more on the rhythm than the note.  Try playing your "Six White Horses Lick" by muting the strings as you play the lick.  It sounds pretty cool!    

As for unwanted harmonics; I just move my finger tips away from where the harmonic is sounding; up or down the fingerboard.  Moving a fingertip, up or down a string, within as little as a space between one fret and another is enough to kill a harmonic. 

Edited by - Chris Quinn on 10/08/2013 11:35:42

Enviroguy - Posted - 11/20/2013:  12:26:17

Most excellent video. You guys just sound better and better. Thanks for the video and the comments Chris. Another great backup lesson. It's great of you to take the time to do this. Looking forward to seeing you around.
Dennis

Ric in Richmond - Posted - 11/21/2013:  03:39:15

I remembered this in a jam tuesday night while I was trying not to step on some of the softer instruments.  It worked most excellent.  Just fingered the chords and rolled as usual.  I thought it sounded fine!!!

beatlespin - Posted - 11/22/2013:  19:49:46

sounds good. i have tried similar by muting with my right hand but hard to get right. will try this one. our guitar player thinks i am too loud during his breaks so i vamp lightly but its hard to be quieter than one of those plastic martins!! he has one of those hpl (formica) X series

justtysen - Posted - 11/22/2013:  22:29:00

Here's a video of Ron Stewart talking about this type of backup playing: youtube.com/watch?v=rBcNuy32Ia0.