parvega - Posted - 09/20/2013:  11:25:39

I re-fret vintage banjos on a fairly regular basis and invariably fit fret wire which is wider (the visible bit not the tang) than the original pretty narrow wire, except of course if it's a partial re-fret.  I do this because I personally find wider frets more comfortable to play. However as the work is for other people who buy them from me (I re-fret before customers are involved) I'm thinking that I should consider what people generally prefer and not pander to my own personal preferences. I'd therefore be interested in your comments on this. Are there any reasons why narrow frets were used in the 1920s? Are there any disadvantages with using wider wire? Thanks in advance for your responses.

Fathand - Posted - 09/20/2013:  11:35:54

I think Narrow Frets were used in the 20's based on availability. Frets were a somewhat modern idea at the time. 

I  have a 1925 style 3 Gibson with a conversion neck. The frets to about #8 are quite wide, about what I might expect on an electric guitar or bass. They are very comfortable to use and intonate very nicely.  The next  6 or 7 frets are about typical for a modern banjo and also play well. The final frets up to #22 are quite narrow, probably original to the neck as reproduction style frets. The thinness makes it nice to get your fingers between them but otherwise they are not very comfortable.

My Stelling has frets standard to Stelling that are a little wider than standard but narrower than the Electric guitar type. These are probably my favourite of all.

steve davis - Posted - 09/20/2013:  11:38:14

One of my banjos is narrow wire and the other is medium.
I guess I like them,both.

sunburst - Posted - 09/20/2013:  13:18:04

quote:

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Originally posted by parvega

 

I re-fret vintage banjos on a fairly regular basis and invariably fit fret wire which is wider (the visible bit not the tang) than the original pretty narrow wire, except of course if it's a partial re-fret.  I do this because I personally find wider frets more comfortable to play. However as the work is for other people who buy them from me (I re-fret before customers are involved) I'm thinking that I should consider what people generally prefer and not pander to my own personal preferences. I'd therefore be interested in your comments on this. Are there any reasons why narrow frets were used in the 1920s? Are there any disadvantages with using wider wire? Thanks in advance for your responses.

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I re-fret instruments for customers regularly, and I generally use whatever fret wire they prefer. Few people like the very narrow, 20s replica (or thereabouts) wire, and I mostly use it in cases where historical accuracy is important to the owner.

I build mandolins (and re-fret mandolins) fairly regularly, and fret wire that is around .080" or wider looks and feels crowded on the upper frets where the space between is small (IMO). I've taken to using wider fret wire up to fret #12 or so and switching to the narrower wire for the closely spaced upper frets. Some people appreciate the feature, most don't even notice it, but it solves the problem of difficult slides on tall narrow wire that many people experience, while also solving the problem of crowded frets toward the bridge.

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 09/20/2013:  23:23:10

From my present thread regarding narrow SS fret wire - a statement of mine:



As some of you may have noticed, I was writing about tenor banjos only - for these you can´t use wide fret wire - the use of advanced and invisible damping and vibrato techniques calls for rather narrow frets.

Polle

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 09/21/2013:  00:43:51

quote:

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Originally posted by parvega

 

I re-fret vintage banjos on a fairly regular basis and invariably fit fret wire which is wider (the visible bit not the tang) than the original pretty narrow wire, except of course if it's a partial re-fret.  I do this because I personally find wider frets more comfortable to play. However as the work is for other people who buy them from me (I re-fret before customers are involved) I'm thinking that I should consider what people generally prefer and not pander to my own personal preferences. I'd therefore be interested in your comments on this. Are there any reasons why narrow frets were used in the 1920s? Are there any disadvantages with using wider wire? Thanks in advance for your responses.

---

Early frets (renaissance era) were commonly made of sheep gut, and in fact were usually old broken gut strings that had been recycled into a second life.   And when the idea of metal frets first struck some benighted soul (who was no doubt tired of tying on new gut frets about as often as he had to change strings) he quite naturally made them the same size that the players of that time were already used to: roughly the diameter of a gut string.

Ever since then, frets have been slowly growing larger and larger as the playing public has discovered how much easier it is to play on the larger frets; and while barre frets (no tang) with only an .050 wide bead were still being used by Martin as recently as 1934, they were rather late to the larger-fret party and these days it's not terribly unusual to see banjos using fretwire in the .110 X .055 range: almost as large as jumbo guitar wire.

I've heard a few banjo players -Polle included- claim that there are some techniques that cannot be done on today's higher frets, but I've also heard others claim that this is not true and that it's only a matter of adaptation.  Not being a tenor or plectrum banjo player myself I'm not qualified to have a personal opinion on the subject, but it's fair to say that there are both qualified players who like the larger frets and those who don't.  (Note: This is also true of both Bluegrass and Old-timey players as well.)

That being the case, I always point out both the advantages and disadvantages of the modern larger frets to the instrument's owner before I do a fret job, and I give them their choice of whatever fret size they prefer.  I've also done some restoration work on vintage banjos for museums, and it those cases I replace the needed frets with wire that's either the same size as the originals or so close that the difference is not detectable by means of a non-calibrated eyeball.

~Pete

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 09/21/2013:  01:33:42

Pete,

A great and indeed informative posting by you - thanks!

Tenor banjos are my specialty - the consensus amongst specialists regarding fret size for this banjo type seems to go for an appr. 0.080x0.040" crown size - á la f.ex. StewMac 0147. This however as a sort of compromise between two "worlds".

BUT - the vast majority of tenor banjo players are not aware of and do certainly not master the techniques as mentioned.

You can to a certain degree use these techniques on a tenor with frets as mentioned - but you´ll get better results and control by using a more narrow and low fret wire - on my own soloist tenors I´ve till now used StewMac 0764 - with a 0.053x0.037" crown size. But I wouldn´t mind going even more narrow and low - if I could find fret wire like that. LOL!

Polle

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 09/21/2013 01:35:13

steve davis - Posted - 09/21/2013:  05:02:23

I think Jimmy Cox has always favored the narrow wire as it's closer to pre war specs.

parvega - Posted - 09/23/2013:  00:54:11

Thanks for all your responses:
Deaf Lester and Steve and Fathand - Thanks for the historical angle. Makes complete sense and explains the pre war specs so you've answered one of my questions. Thanks

Polle and Sunburst - Thanks for the comments relating to technique and playability. Just the sort of feedback I was hoping to get so again you've answered my question.

I knew I could rely on the BHO forumeers. (Is that a word?) ;-)