mikeyb2 - Posted - 04/28/2013:  15:42:49

Well I've been learning banjo for a couple of months now, and have been following the usual beginners routes by watching Youtube, Pat Costello, RSB , Cathy Fink etc.., concentrating my efforts on the basic frailing stroke, and noodling around with Old Joe Clark, Cripple Creek, bluesy stuff trying to  establish a technique rather than perfecting the actual tunes. My thumb has been stuck in 5th string land and I've just been trying to introduce some drop thumb into my playing before I get too firmly fixed into my particular way of playing. Following the RSB drop thumb video, I've been alternating between 2nd and 5th, 3rd and 5th strings while striking the 1st. It doesn't come easy but I keep tryng and I can sense a slow and steady progress.

The question is, to understand when drop thumb could be incorporated into playing, are there any simple tunes I could practice that would ease me gently into it, and at the same time help me understand when it can be used? Thanks in advance

banjoike - Posted - 04/28/2013:  16:01:48

Cluck ole Hen is a nice one to add drop thumb instead of pull offs.

plunknplinkntwang - Posted - 04/28/2013:  16:06:18

Try a simple melody such as Cripple creek intro [forgive my crude staff sheet] 1st/2nd string open string DT in red.

1st  ---5-0-5-----0------------------------

2nd -----------------0--0------1-0--1-2-

3rd  ----------------------------------------

4th  -----------------------------------------

5th  -----0----0------------0------0------0

hweinberg - Posted - 04/28/2013:  16:17:17

Something you can always try in G tuning (or capo-ed up or tuned up for A) is to substitute drop thumb to 5th fret on the second string    3         for the 3-2 pull-off on the first string.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   |    5

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   | _ |

I hope this is clear in spite of the double-spacing.   I like it as a small variation the B-part of Sandy Boys, for example. -- Howard

Dave Coin - Posted - 04/28/2013:  18:19:51

If you just play, a lot, and don't analyze, droppin' will happen on its own.

Beachbum Scott - Posted - 04/28/2013:  18:23:59

Try this tab of the song Liberty.

homepage.ntlworld.com/drcce200...ytab.html

Paul R - Posted - 04/28/2013:  20:08:44

Just think of the tunes you like to play, find tab, and see where the drop thumb comes in.

Winged Words - Posted - 04/28/2013:  20:47:31

You could get Dan Levenson's Clawhammer from Scratch which'll give you a thorough workout in drop thumbing, tunes and exercises. Ken Perlman's Clawhammer Style Banjo too which is a more comprehensive course.

Good thing to take the RSB route and to start drop thumbing early anyway. Isn't there a fair amount of drop thumb practice material in RSB?

Winged Words - Posted - 04/29/2013:  00:48:29

I've been thinking about this. I've been playing about 2 years now and used Perlman as my main source up to last autumn. When I got to chapter 9 I played through the exercises on pp85 - 6 but spent more time on the tunes Little Sadie, Angeline the Baker, On the Road to Boston and Needle Case where drop thumb techniques are introduced gradually. Found it really hard and set me back on my heels a bit.
Recommendations here led me to ClawDan's CH from Scratch and working through section 2 of his book which is solid dropthumbing in every bar was really useful. The exercises too. For me it was much more difficult to put in occasional drop thumbs than to play Dan's total immersion tunes.
Now I use a set of exercises mainly from RSB (sheets RSB-01-02 and RSB04-6-1) most days as a total immersion drop thumb warmup and find Perlman's tunes much easier.

So just to say that introducing occasional drop thumbs may not be the best way. Thoughts from the more experienced are hoped for but this approach is working for me.
Geoff

Edited by - Winged Words on 04/29/2013 00:51:06

hweinberg - Posted - 04/29/2013:  05:12:57

Clarification of previous post re drop thumb substitution in G tuning. Similar drop thumb substitution can be done in double C tunings and others --Howard

1st ---5-------- instead of 3---2(p)

2nd -------3---- -----

3rd ------------- -----

4th ------------- -----

5th ------------- -----

mbuk06 - Posted - 04/29/2013:  05:13:23

It sounds like you have your basic right hand action down and moving on early to being able to drop thumb will make it easier to pick it up painlessly before muscle memory binds your thumb too fixedly to that fifth string and then dropping to other strings will quickly become instinctive and natural. Before long you won't even be thinking about it. As Geoff suggested above RSB includes some excellent drop thumb exercises to practice on. These in combination with learning versions of tunes you like that have just one or two drop thumbs (on first and second string to begin with) should build that technique into your playing without over-complicating what is a very simple technique and was what worked for me.  Exercises on their own don't incorporate a sense of how drop thumb works rhythmically in a tune.

Have fun 

Edited by - mbuk06 on 04/29/2013 05:16:01

scthompson - Posted - 04/29/2013:  06:39:45

I like to throw in the drop thumb for a lot of syncopated notes that otherwise require too much streching or ashos. One thing that works really well for me is to work with tune and tab together, finding where the drop thumb is more comfortable. I'm just a beginner, but after a year of playing I'm finally starting to feel like the drop thumb falls into place a lot of times when I can't figure out what is supposed to happen - especially if I am trying to play a song that is not part of the ot repertoire.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/29/2013:  07:08:06

Except for those listed as having a difficulty level of "1" all the tunes in RSB involve drop thumbs, but you can also simply drop thumb to any convenient open string as you are playing the most simple tunes - this is called rhythmic drop thumb.

Don't worry about having the right chords - you don't need chords to play the tunes most of the time. 

You might also try the exercises with the frailer playing the 2nd string. Be sure to let your drop thumbing range free (3rd and 4th string) and you can also do things like play the same string 2 or more times in a row with the thumb. You want to be able to play any combination of thumb strokes available to you at any time you want to play them.

mikeyb2 - Posted - 04/29/2013:  10:09:16

Wow! I didn't realise I'd get so much help and advice.There's plenty of ideas and lots to go at, so thanks a lot everyone.I'm hoping to post a video of my playing when I get organised, which I hope will generate some constructive criticism before I get into bad habits. Just off for a few days fishing tomorrow, so may not be able to respond to the forum until I get back so thanks in advance for any more posts.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 04/29/2013:  11:38:13

Once you get past the actual mechanics of becoming fluent in the technique, the use / non-use of drop-thumbing (or anyother technique) is largely a matter of personal style.

For me, certain tunes call for DT's to greater or lesser degrees. I play tunes with little or no DT and others with plenty of it. My use of the DT hinges on:1) simplifying the execution of the tune 2) using it to obtain a particular rhythmic effect. 3) preferring the effect it gives in specific spots.

As far as understanding where to place drop-thumbs in a tune, I'd recommend a lot of listening (or checking out tabs) to see the different ways it is being applied by other players. That will give you your own ideas of where and how to use it. As above, RSB and Dan Levenson's material will help greatly with that. Just do a lot of listening. This insight will be gained over time intuitively more than through analysis.

99% of the time, drop-thumbed notes occur on the second half of the beat. That is on the "&" in
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &, so oftentimes a note falling in that spot may be a candidate for a drop-thumb.

As for tunes, West Virginia Girls is one I've given my students to get them going on drop-thumbing.
Sourwood Mountain also has a couple of of key spots for a simple drop-thumb phrase DTing the 2nd string in the last measure of the first part, and also the first, second, and fourth measures of the second part. Sourwood Mountain was the second tune I learned and it included drop-thumbing, so I think your attempts to include the technique early are good. You are right about folks forming mental blocks about the technique. I've sadly seen too many folks still struggling ten or fifteen years later because of the faulty tuition they received in the beginning regarding the technique.

Good luck... your determination means that the battle is already half won.

Jim Yates - Posted - 04/29/2013:  17:02:54

Assuming the blue notes are quarter notes and the black ones are eighths,

here are the first two bars of Old Joe Clark with no drop thumb:

________0_____3__2__2______0________0______

__2__3__3___________0_________1__0__0______

___________________________________________

___________________________________________

___________0___________0_______________0___

          h                       p

You could add a dropped thumb like this:

________0_____3__2__2______0_____0 ________0______

__2__3__3___________0_________1________0__0______

_________________________________________________

_________________________________________________

___________0___________0____________0_________0__

          h                       p

Or maybe:

________0_____3__2__2______0_____0 _________________

__2__3__3___________0_________1________0_____0_____

__________________________________________0________

___________________________________________________

___________0___________0____________0___________0__

          h                       p

or perhaps the first 4 measures like this:

________0_____3__2__2______0_______________________

__2__3__3___________0_________0__1_____0_____0_____

__________________________________________0________

___________________________________________________

___________0___________0____________0___________0__

          h                       p

________0_____3__2__2______0_____0 _________________

__2__3__3___________0_________1________1_____1_____

__________________________________________2________

___________________________________________________

___________0___________0____________0___________0__

          h                       p

Edited by - Jim Yates on 04/29/2013 17:17:18

bublnsqueak - Posted - 04/29/2013:  23:05:23

I look at drop thumb as just another way to divide a 1/4 note into two 1/8 notes. Just the same as hammer ons, pull offs etc.

When to use it: I use it when its the easiest way to get the note I'm after while keeping the rhythm steady. Down picking has some limitations in note order.

Example:
Problem - to hit the G string immediately after the B string as two 1/8 notes.
Answer 1 - hit B then alternative pull off G.
Answer 2 - hit B then drop thumb G

Did you catch any fish?
Paul

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 04/30/2013:  10:33:28

Great example Paul, and all the greater for being
simple and direct. Your example is exactly what
I was referring to in my mentioning of "Sourwood
Mountain" above. You cut to the heart of it much
better than I did.

bublnsqueak - Posted - 04/30/2013:  12:06:10

Thanks for the feedback RD.

I'm no banjo teacher but I help if I can.

Picked up lots from you and others over the past couple of years. Like to pay my debts.

Paul

Starter - Posted - 05/06/2013:  07:05:43

I've been doing drop thumb for a grand total of two weeks so I'll go carefully over these suggestions.  I do have some suggestions from a beginner:

1.  It helps if you trim the right hand thumb fingernail so that it doesn't catch the string on the down side

2.  Cathy Fink in her Truefire lessons introduces drop Thumb in Clawhammer Banjo 3, and as I've said before, I find her incredibly clear and helpful.

3.  Cathy starts you off with about 5 drills, which are ok and I did them a little.  But I moved on without totally mastering them to the songs (Cripple Creek and Bill Cheatham are the first two) and that's when I suddenly felt I understood what it was all about.  In her versions of those songs you only use a drop thumb every now and then, perhaps just one in four measures or so.  And once you master the individual riffs you start feeling like you understand what it's all about.

4.  For some reason adding the drop thumb makes me happier about playing at a moderate pace; it's just, suddenly, more interesting.  And that's presumably a good thing; I assume that most of us want to play fast fast, and slowing it down and getting it smooth and accurate is surely much more important.

will

mikeyb2 - Posted - 05/11/2013:  13:40:38

Just thought I'd thank everyone for the replies. I'm trying to take it in and beginning to understand where DT might be useful, although learning to do it is an entirely different matter. Plenty of practice required, so wish me luck.

BanjerMaker - Posted - 05/16/2013:  10:50:25

I honestly started to drop my thumb where the melody notes were not achievable with my middle fanger. I've never thought about it this way.