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Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 04/25/2013: 11:46:20
quote:
Originally posted by TR Dockery
quote:
Originally posted by Deaf Lester Crawdad
You need to ask yourself what you'd expect someone who just spent a wad of dough on a prewar rim and the latest (or oldest) tone ring to say about his banjo's tone: Is he going to say, "Gee! My Deering sounds just as good as this one!", or is he going to go on about "Smoky tones from dark hollers in the hills", and say things like "If you have to ask, you don't have a good enough ear to appreciate it", or "It's an indefinable something that I just can't describe", or even "If you don't want one it's only because you can't afford it!"?
I've heard all of the above said more than once, but, human nature being what it is, we nearly all want to think that our instruments are 'special' somehow and will happily grasp any chance to make that claim. (In short; the prewar aura influences many people's perceptions of a given banjo's sound more than do prewar parts.)
Meanwhile, there are banjos being made today that are easily the equals of anything that came out of the prewar factories and in some cases are actually better built in terms of the parts being used and the construction quality.
Anything else is smoke and mirrors.
~Pete
It could just as easily be argued that somebody is going to come--I started to pun "out of the woodwork" but let's just say, "on the scene"-- to cast aspersions on anybody else's opinions that don't match their own.
Okay, I'm easy.
All I need to see is a list of the well-known players who *don't* own prewars but who yet laud their merits to the sky. Ya see, the problem is that the guys who claim that there's something special about prewar banjos are almost invariably the same guys who presently own them, so you can't accept their opinions on how special/different their banjos are because they're heavily invested; both financially and emotionally. It would be like asking a Russian mother to admit that her kids had bombed the Boston marathon -and expecting a realistic answer. OTOH, it's not difficult to find guys who have a lot of experience with prewars -and who have owned a number of them as well- but who understand that they're just a collection of parts.
Alternatively, you could come up with some objective scientific proof demonstrating that prewar Gibson banjos actually do create distinctive sounds that no other banjo can. But the fact is that no such objective demonstration has ever shown anything of the sort. The only "proof" of the superiority of prewar anythings lies in the claims of the owners, and it's very difficult for them (as a whole) to be objective.
Do I expect them to agree with me? Don't be silly.
Do I expect at least some of them to try the old "you're just casting aspersions on people whose opinions don't match your own" bit? You bet. And it's pretty funny when they do, because when they do that they're casting aspersions on my opinions because mine don't match their own.
~Pete
Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 04/25/2013: 11:56:32
quote:
Originally posted by Banjophobic
quote:
Originally posted by Deaf Lester Crawdad
quote:
Originally posted by Banjophobic
Meanwhile, there are banjos being made today that are easily the equals of anything that came out of the prewar factories and in some cases are actually better built in terms of the parts being used and the construction quality.
Anything else is smoke and mirrors.
~Pete
Since any well made new rim is 'just as good' as the prewar, you would choose the new one just as often? 
Try reading it again and read for content this time. I never said the words "any well made new rim is just as good as the prewar".
If you have to lie to make your point then you didn't have a point to begin with.
"Lie" about what? Where's the 'lie' in what I said? Good grief you need to lighten up,haha. I just asked that since you think parts are 'equal to anything that came out of the prewar period factories", which, uh includes the rims just mentioned, then my question is perfectly legit. If you were given the choice between a vintage 3 play prewar Gibson rim to buy, verses a new well made 3 ply, and the price difference was small, which one one you choose?
Im asking this to say that may folks who poo-poo on anything 'prewar' as 'hype' or 'voodoo', would choose the old rim and I find that interesting in itself. Whew, sorry I tried to have a calm,sane conversation with you....wow. Calling folks liars is uncalled for.
Bull. When you modify what someone said in order to make your point it's not telling the truth. This remains true whether you change the wording -as you did in your first reply- (I said "in some cases" but you changed that to "any") or whether you selectively snip out words from a quote to change it's meaning -as you did this time- it's not telling the truth. It's trying to change what the other person said in order to make your point look more reasonable and his look silly.
If you call that having a 'calm, sane conversation" then you have a great future in politics, but you're not going to be having any "calm, sane conversations" with anyone who can read.
M J Booker - Posted - 04/25/2013: 12:04:15
I believe BeeGee hit the nail on the head. So, use the old technology, tube recorders, on an old skin head, which would produce an old muffled sound, see what you get. Then try it on modern technology, with the skin head, and since recording is now crisp and sharp, see what you get.
If you ask anyone owning a Granada like Earl's, they say it doesn't sound the same. So, why would only ONE Granada have that so called sound, or other Granada's only Earl had owned.
I believe people have been chasing an elusive sound which was caused by poor recording quality, which in its day was the best.
Banjophobic - Posted - 04/25/2013: 12:38:07
quote:
Originally posted by Deaf Lester Crawdad
quote:
Originally posted by Banjophobic
quote:
Originally posted by Deaf Lester Crawdad
quote:
Originally posted by Banjophobic
Meanwhile, there are banjos being made today that are easily the equals of anything that came out of the prewar factories and in some cases are actually better built in terms of the parts being used and the construction quality.
Anything else is smoke and mirrors.
~Pete
Since any well made new rim is 'just as good' as the prewar, you would choose the new one just as often?
Try reading it again and read for content this time. I never said the words "any well made new rim is just as good as the prewar".
If you have to lie to make your point then you didn't have a point to begin with.
Bull. When you modify what someone said in order to make your point it's not telling the truth. This remains true whether you change the wording -as you did in your first reply- (I said "in some cases" but you changed that to "any") or whether you selectively snip out words from a quote to change it's meaning -as you did this time- it's not telling the truth. It's trying to change what the other person said in order to make your point look more reasonable and his look silly.
If you call that having a 'calm, sane conversation" then you have a great future in politics, but you're not going to be having any "calm, sane conversations" with anyone who can read.
Ok, lets have a recap of what you said, and how i interpreted it. I did not modify anything-period. You said that the parts in new banjos are equal...and in some case superior. It takes little reading comprehension to determine that you are simply saying that new banjo part's are equal to old ones, but that in some case the parts are superior. So I was guessing that across the broad, that you think any well made modern banjo part would be equal to, or perhaps superior to the prewar versions.
I no more lied about what yuo said than a man in the moon. All i did was try to comment on what you wrote and how it read to me, period. Now having read it and replied that way, I asked that many prewar naysayers, given the choice of a new rim and and old prewar rim, would most likely choose the old rim.
I asked if you, given the choice between a well made modern 3 ply, and an old 3 ply Gibson rim, the price being similar, would you choose? I also included a 
to show that even if you chose new, It wouldn't be a big deal to me regardless. All this 'lying' commentary is both crude and franky cheap, over a simple topic about a banjo rim. Anyway, no big deal. Did you ever think that maybe folks have to decipher what's written in a post as best they can-they are human. Sorry if my post upset you. seems to be that anyone who engages you at all in discussions does this....sheesh. I'm out
Edited by - Banjophobic on 04/25/2013 12:41:18
dickinnorwich - Posted - 04/25/2013: 12:55:34
Steve Davis:
I've tried 3 different tonerings in my '29 2 and they all sounded great.
Steve, the question is, how (different) did those tone rings sound when you mounted them on other (Cox) rims?
What I think I hear Pete saying is that in blind test, where you didn't know which rim was which, could any one of us make a positive identification as to which one was the PW rim and which one was the (Cox) rim?
If we could make such an identification, then it wouldn't be "hype."
Edited by - dickinnorwich on 04/25/2013 12:57:51
Rick Polston - Posted - 04/25/2013: 12:56:09
Everyone who has old rims and feel they are inferior - PLEASE send them to me :-)
Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 04/25/2013: 13:38:18
quote:
Originally posted by dickinnorwich
Steve Davis:
I've tried 3 different tonerings in my '29 2 and they all sounded great.
Steve, the question is, how (different) did those tone rings sound when you mounted them on other (Cox) rims?
What I think I hear Pete saying is that in blind test, where you didn't know which rim was which, could any one of us make a positive identification as to which one was the PW rim and which one was the (Cox) rim?
If we could make such an identification, then it wouldn't be "hype."
Absolutely. But it's never been done, and I doubt it ever will be.
Firstly because you'd have to have a number of both prewars and modern high-quailty pots to test to get a respectable sampling of both sorts (the logistics alone would be prohibitive) and secondly, who would you choose as your judges?
Thirdly, no matter how many pots you had -and no matter who you chose as judges- the people whose minds are already made up will most likely claim the results were skewed or otherwise invalid unless the results told them what they already wanted to hear.
People are like that.
~Pete
dickinnorwich - Posted - 04/25/2013: 14:30:53
Pete:
While that level of blind rim testing may (or may not) have ever been done, I'm appealing to my friend, Steve Davis, to help us out of this hole because whether he knows it or not, he's already done the test. While it wasn't a blind test, it may be the best we've got on a Thursday in April, 2013. I know for a fact that Steve has mounted those same tone rings in both his PW rim and his other, high quality (Cox) rims. So while it's admittedly not a perfect test, it's the best I could come up with on the fly...... so don't shoot the messenger!
Steve, can you help us? Did those tone rings sound markedly different when you removed them from your PW rim and mounted them on your Cox rim?
Could I (or anyone else) have told the difference?
Edited by - dickinnorwich on 04/25/2013 14:31:49
Banjophobic - Posted - 04/25/2013: 14:32:35
quote:
Originally posted by dickinnorwich
Steve Davis:
I've tried 3 different tonerings in my '29 2 and they all sounded great.
Steve, the question is, how (different) did those tone rings sound when you mounted them on other (Cox) rims?
What I think I hear Pete saying is that in blind test, where you didn't know which rim was which, could any one of us make a positive identification as to which one was the PW rim and which one was the (Cox) rim?
If we could make such an identification, then it wouldn't be "hype."
Dick
I think the 'tests' are done over time by experienced players and repairmen. In my case, I may have literally stacks of rims, both PW and new and I can and do use them all the time in banjos. Speaking as 'on average' here for this topic, I can honestly say that in a comparison of 100 structurally sound prewar 3 ply rims, to 100 structurally sound new 3 ply rims, I have found the old rims do have something extra in them. Its that unidentifiable 'x' factor. I don't think its anything magical--just some great wood thats been aged many years and had the crap played out of it (in most cases).
Now thats not to say that just because a rim is "prewar" that is automatically going to be superior to any or all newer rims. Thats just too broad a claim and really simplistic. What i am saying is that great old prewar rims do have 'something' soncially going on that a new rim wont capture as predictably. If someone wanted to conduct a blind test and found that all the new rims beat out the old ones that would be fine with me. But I doubt very seriously if all the builders, repairmen and players I know who believe there is something in those old rims and have experiences with them, would be fooled across the board. Nor do i think what they are hearing is all contrived hype.
And I would lay odds against many of the naysayers, who say there is nothing special about them, would trade all old rims away for 'new ones'....
Edited by - Banjophobic on 04/25/2013 14:36:58
TR Dockery - Posted - 04/25/2013: 15:30:48
quote:
Originally posted by Deaf Lester Crawdad
"...because they're heavily invested; both financially and emotionally. It would be like asking a Russian mother to admit that her kids had bombed the Boston marathon -and expecting a realistic answer."
Cheezandcrackers, Pete! You evoke these kinds of images in this thread and it's everybody else who is "emotionally invested"?
"Do I expect at least some of them to try the old "you're just casting aspersions on people whose opinions don't match your own" bit? You bet. And it's pretty funny when they do, because when they do that they're casting aspersions on my opinions because mine don't match their own."
~Pete
Well, you got me there, Vizzini. 3:40 - 4:09 youtube.com/watch?v=U_eZmEiyTo0 (Just to keep this light-hearted.)
I have tried my share of boutique rims and tone rings in several different banjos, from an Ibanez Japanese clone to a couple of the very best banjos made by US other-than-Gibson manufacturers. None of them beat my uncut '37 Style-1. None of them beat my '29 Style 2 with a Burlile tone ring (including the Williams KI#3 that I was the first owner of, although a great sounding banjo). None of them even beat my new custom 12, which has a '32 Style 1 rim in it and a Burlile tone ring. Fact is, I wanted those other banjos to sound better because I wanted to prove your point; but I didn't get the sound from them that I now get out of these lower-end pre-war Gibsons. Truth is I have only ever played one original pre-war flathead, but it was Frank Neat's '32 Granada, and there are no words to convey the sound to the uninitiated that this banjo had, even in my less-than-skilled hands.
Happy trails,
Randy in Germantown, TN
1935tb-11 - Posted - 04/25/2013: 19:05:25
i really hope and pray that all the bad mouthing of anything pre war takes hold and the bottom fails out of the prices, then i might be able to afford to buy all the pre war parts and pieces i can find,,, as for all the PROS playing all these PRE WAR banjos not saying anything bad about them ,, well i guess earl, JD, ralph, sonny, jim, bela and all the others just could and cannot not afford to buy anything else (such a shame). as for me i waited a long time before i could get a pre war and regret is not an issue at all for the purchase. why folks get their panties in a wad when the words PRE WAR are mentioned is beyond me. its not a carved in stone by the hand of god fact,, it is an opinion that is formed by the years of playing and owning them,, last i heard we could still have an opinion,, pro or con.. if you dont think there is anything to it ,,,, fine bully for you... but don't tell me what i do hear and can't hear ,,,,,,ok?
terry m
steve davis - Posted - 04/25/2013: 20:15:53
My '29 2 conversion got built with a Cox K5 ring and a walnut neck in '99.
That Cox ring taps an F# and a C#
I have another Cox ring('08) that taps G and A.
I have 2 RK rings that both finish with an A note.I can't remember the other note on them and they're in banjos,right now.
I find both Cox rings to have the same fit/diameter and skirt thickness.
Very close ID between Cox and RK/slightly less OD with RK but both RK and 1 Cox finish tap with the same A note.
Alll these rings fit very well to the rim and it wasn't so much which one sounds better.Rather,which tone do you prefer.
Very interesting to hear and play the different strengths.
Right now the 2 has the '08 ring in it and loves it.
I can't rate them as to which one wins no more than I can say which song is best.
It's all very,very good.
Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 04/26/2013: 00:28:35
quote:
Originally posted by TR Dockery
quote:
Originally posted by Deaf Lester Crawdad
"...because they're heavily invested; both financially and emotionally. It would be like asking a Russian mother to admit that her kids had bombed the Boston marathon -and expecting a realistic answer."
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Cheezandcrackers, Pete! You evoke these kinds of images in this thread and it's everybody else who is "emotionally invested"?
Huh? You think someone has to be "emotionally invested" to use a garden-variety analogy? Where does that logic come from?
The facts are that I've worked on dozens of old Gibson banjos for over 50 years, have done something like two dozen tenor and plectrum to 5-string conversions myself, have played both Earl's and Sonny's Granadas -along with several other authentic prewar flat-topped Mastertones, and have owned three PWs myself: one of which I owned for several years -before selling it to a guy who used it a lot more than I ever did. And unlike what some folks here seem to be claiming, I've never "downtalked" or "badmouthed" PW Gibson banjos, and in fact have said repeatedly that most of 'em are darned fine instruments. (Not, "all", however. PW Gibsons don't all sound the same. Some are better than others, and I've seen one that was an absolute dud.)
But I've also worked on and played literally hundreds of other high-quality banjos that had no Gibson parts in them whatsoever, and quite a number of them IMHO are just as good as anything that ever came out of the Gibson shop. Modern stuff like Pruchas, for instance, or even the now-aging Gold Star J.D. Crowe models are great banjos with no "but it's not a Gibson" excuses needed.
So I'm not in the least "emotionally invested" from either an anti or pro-PW viewpoint, simply because I've had the chance to play so many different instruments and evaluate them objectively as individual instruments: not as generic pieces of Bluegrass history.
For anyone who truly believes that there is some secret voodoo that makes PW Gibsons different from all other banjos I say "Go for it!" if that's what turns your crank. But kindly don't accuse the guy who is looking at the instruments objectively -from outside the mythic aura of the "That's what Earl played" school of thought- of "being emotionally invested".
Because that's exactly what I'm saying is a bad idea if you're trying to judge things without prejudice.
~Pete
country frank - Posted - 04/26/2013: 02:24:51
When i had the good [read unbelievably good] fortune to play Bill Evans [1930] Granada a couple of weeks ago, we discussed many elements of that banjo including the rim. He said that this instrument had a comparatively 'soft' rim which he qualified by noticing that the co-rod washers had sunk into the rim to the point where they were almost flush with the inner surface of the timbre. He furthered speculated that part of the 'secret' of those prewar rims was in fact their [softer] density compared to many contemporary rims.
This idea was pretty revolutionary to me in so far as, in my very limited experience of rim construction [i have had 4 rims made for specific banjos to date] i have always believed that a harder wood was more desirable for [bluegrass] banjos than a softer wood.....
Edited by - country frank on 04/26/2013 02:26:33
RB3WREATH - Posted - 04/26/2013: 03:13:49
quote:
Originally posted by Deaf Lester Crawdad
quote:
Originally posted by TR Dockery
quote:
Originally posted by Deaf Lester Crawdad
You need to ask yourself what you'd expect someone who just spent a wad of dough on a prewar rim and the latest (or oldest) tone ring to say about his banjo's tone: Is he going to say, "Gee! My Deering sounds just as good as this one!", or is he going to go on about "Smoky tones from dark hollers in the hills", and say things like "If you have to ask, you don't have a good enough ear to appreciate it", or "It's an indefinable something that I just can't describe", or even "If you don't want one it's only because you can't afford it!"?
I've heard all of the above said more than once, but, human nature being what it is, we nearly all want to think that our instruments are 'special' somehow and will happily grasp any chance to make that claim. (In short; the prewar aura influences many people's perceptions of a given banjo's sound more than do prewar parts.)
Meanwhile, there are banjos being made today that are easily the equals of anything that came out of the prewar factories and in some cases are actually better built in terms of the parts being used and the construction quality.
Anything else is smoke and mirrors.
~Pete
It could just as easily be argued that somebody is going to come--I started to pun "out of the woodwork" but let's just say, "on the scene"-- to cast aspersions on anybody else's opinions that don't match their own.
Okay, I'm easy.
All I need to see is a list of the well-known players who *don't* own prewars but who yet laud their merits to the sky. Ya see, the problem is that the guys who claim that there's something special about prewar banjos are almost invariably the same guys who presently own them, so you can't accept their opinions on how special/different their banjos are because they're heavily invested; both financially and emotionally. It would be like asking a Russian mother to admit that her kids had bombed the Boston marathon -and expecting a realistic answer. OTOH, it's not difficult to find guys who have a lot of experience with prewars -and who have owned a number of them as well- but who understand that they're just a collection of parts.
Alternatively, you could come up with some objective scientific proof demonstrating that prewar Gibson banjos actually do create distinctive sounds that no other banjo can. But the fact is that no such objective demonstration has ever shown anything of the sort. The only "proof" of the superiority of prewar anythings lies in the claims of the owners, and it's very difficult for them (as a whole) to be objective.
Do I expect them to agree with me? Don't be silly.
Do I expect at least some of them to try the old "you're just casting aspersions on people whose opinions don't match your own" bit? You bet. And it's pretty funny when they do, because when they do that they're casting aspersions on my opinions because mine don't match their own.
~Pete
I know many banjo players who do not own a pre-war banjo but would love to.
Joe
And John don't listen to the old crawdad
Edited by - RB3WREATH on 04/26/2013 03:16:59
Banjophobic - Posted - 04/26/2013: 05:39:02
quote:
Originally posted by RB3WREATH
I know many banjo players who do not own a pre-war banjo but would love to.
Joe
And John don't listen to the old crawdad
Joe
Yeah, Im discovering that its not a good thing to try and have any decent conversation, or even try to have fun talking banjo stuff-. If you do, you are called all kinds of stuff. Oh well, you are right about the PW stuff. As I said earlier, folks who poopooh on the 'old rims' idea would most likely snatch them, up if available for a decent price. What does that tell us...
steve davis - Posted - 04/26/2013: 05:49:36
Don't judge on advice.Learn to trust your ears.
dickinnorwich - Posted - 04/26/2013: 06:53:49
Well, just to keep the discussion going for a minute, and to try and bring some focus and sanity to it, in Pete's defense, what I think I heard him say (?) or imply, was the idea that not all pre-war rims were created equal.....and that by extension, some are undoubtedly better sounding than others. In other words, just because they meet the genealogical threshold of being born between say, 1925 to 1940, doesn't necessarily make them all equally good. I don't think any one of us would disagree with the idea that there are qualitative differences between pre-war banjos; The fact is, they don't ALL SOUND ALIKE. I've heard some I didn't like. Joe, your 75 and 3, which you played for me at Joe Val, don't sound alike. I've never been to Banjothon but everyone who has comes away with preferences of some pre-wars over others. That says something. So the question I think we're trying to answer is, how much of those differences (the delta) can be tied to differences in the rims?
banjoez - Posted - 04/26/2013: 07:14:10
The only thing to take away from these discussions is that the rim is a critical component of a good sounding banjo and whether it is prewar or not it needs to have certain characteristics to provide optimal tone. What those characteristics are is still open to debate and study but you know it when you hear it.
Edited by - banjoez on 04/26/2013 07:15:11
asmcsgac - Posted - 04/26/2013: 07:20:03
quote:
Originally posted by banjoez
The only thing to take away from these discussions is that the rim is a critical component of a good sounding banjo and whether it is prewar or not it needs to have certain characteristics to provide optimal tone. What those characteristics are is still open to debate and study but you know it when you hear it.
Yes, indeed.
uncledaveh - Posted - 04/26/2013: 07:59:47
My '34 Gibson TB-11 Conversion with a Huber flathead tone ring is my favorite banjo. I purchased it as a conversion; and when I first picked it up, I knew it had a special sound. Several people have tried to buy it from me (including the original seller). I don't know if it's the old rim, original flange/resonator/tension hoop, Huber ring, Bobby Burns neck or (probably) a combination of everything, but it is one great banjo.
Hot dog!
David “Uncle Dave” Holbrook
The Rockdale Ridgerunners
Now good people, we’re going to play this next tune with more heterogenious constipolicy, double flavor and unknown quality than usual! Make it light on yourself.
Edited by - uncledaveh on 04/26/2013 08:06:32
robbyboone - Posted - 04/26/2013: 08:26:13
quote:
Originally posted by 1935tb-11
i really hope and pray that all the bad mouthing of anything pre war takes hold and the bottom fails out of the prices, then i might be able to afford to buy all the pre war parts and pieces i can find,,, as for all the PROS playing all these PRE WAR banjos not saying anything bad about them ,, well i guess earl, JD, ralph, sonny, jim, bela and all the others just could and cannot not afford to buy anything else (such a shame). as for me i waited a long time before i could get a pre war and regret is not an issue at all for the purchase. why folks get their panties in a wad when the words PRE WAR are mentioned is beyond me. its not a carved in stone by the hand of god fact,, it is an opinion that is formed by the years of playing and owning them,, last i heard we could still have an opinion,, pro or con.. if you dont think there is anything to it ,,,, fine bully for you... but don't tell me what i do hear and can't hear ,,,,,,ok?
terry m
Well said Terry!
Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that the folks that run down, dismiss, devalue, piss and moan the loudest about anything PW Gibson, own Stellings, Gold Stars, Deerings, Vegas and literally everything EXCEPT a PW Gibson? Reckon what the reason for that is? How did these folks get to be experts on all things Gibson?? If you think I'm nuts......just start looking at the "piss and moan Gibson haters" home pages and you'll see what I'm talking about. They don't own one.....but they know everything about them from construction methods to up to the minute values and everything in between.
I don't own or have a hope of owning a space ship, but I think I'll deem myself a rocket scientist.......self appointed expert.......is that all it would take for me to be one??
Sometimes I wonder why I read these posts/threads and why I even continue to be a member of the Hangout......it's getting dumber by the day.
Robby
stymie - Posted - 04/26/2013: 10:25:17
well robby....the inverse could be argued just as easily. the only persons barking louder than anybody about the mystical properties of pre-war gibson banjos are those that own them. just an observation though.
b
banjoez - Posted - 04/26/2013: 10:26:18
You guys take this stuff way too serious!! 
(Though the entertainment value is priceless....)
Edited by - banjoez on 04/26/2013 10:28:05
Rick Polston - Posted - 04/26/2013: 10:55:58
quote:
Originally posted by stymie
well robby....the inverse could be argued just as easily. the only persons barking louder than anybody about the mystical properties of pre-war gibson banjos are those that own them. just an observation though.
b
I don't think that is barking you hear from us Pre War Gibson owners - It's our old flatheads growling :-)
Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 04/26/2013: 11:31:32
quote:
Originally posted by RB3WREATH
I know many banjo players who do not own a pre-war banjo but would love to.
So? There's nothing wrong with that except that it's driven PW prices sky high.
Once again; most of 'em are perfectly fine banjos. But so are a lot of the banjos being built today; and the modern ones will cost you far less, sound just as good, and play just as well.
~Pete
Edited by - Deaf Lester Crawdad on 04/26/2013 11:35:45
stymie - Posted - 04/26/2013: 11:41:08
quote:
Originally posted by Rick Polston
quote:
Originally posted by stymie
well robby....the inverse could be argued just as easily. the only persons barking louder than anybody about the mystical properties of pre-war gibson banjos are those that own them. just an observation though.
b
I don't think that is barking you hear from us Pre War Gibson owners - It's our old flatheads growling :-)
ha!
b, woof!
dickinnorwich - Posted - 04/26/2013: 12:29:44
O.K., let's go at this another way:
In the period between the two World Wars, there were lots of other manufacturers of steam-bent, maple, banjo rims. Are we to believe that only those rims that happened to find their way from the manufacturer and into the Gibson facility are the only good PW banjo rims ever made? In fact, it's likely that whomever was doing the actual manufacturing of rims and selling to them to Gibson had contracts with various other banjo makers so as not to be dependent on one revenue source......meaning, that the wood used in those other rims was undoubtedly from the same (forest) source. Remember, that this was all occurring during the great clear cutting period of our nation when logging crews would go into a forest and strip it bare in a matter of days.
Edited by - dickinnorwich on 04/26/2013 12:30:41
Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 04/26/2013: 12:46:55
quote:
Originally posted by dickinnorwich
O.K., let's go at this another way:
In the period between the two World Wars, there were lots of other manufacturers of steam-bent, maple, banjo rims. Are we to believe that only those rims that happened to find their way from the manufacturer and into the Gibson facility are the only good PW banjo rims ever made? In fact, it's likely that whomever was doing the actual manufacturing of rims and selling to them to Gibson had contracts with various other banjo makers so as not to be dependent on one revenue source......meaning, that the wood used in those other rims was undoubtedly from the same (forest) source. Remember, that this was all occurring during the great clear cutting period of our nation when logging crews would go into a forest and strip it bare in a matter of days.
Sure, Dick. But that's logic speaking, and that can be a hanging offence when you're discussing banjos. 
(...or guitars, or mandolins, or......)
Majorbanjo - Posted - 04/26/2013: 13:04:44
I used to have a bunch of prewar gibson rims from style 1 and style 11 banjos.......I've put a lot of those rims into new banjos Hubers, Gibsons, and others and every one of them has been an improvement to my ears and more importantly to my feel when playing......I'm one that thinks the rim is the heart and makes all the difference....
lightgauge - Posted - 04/26/2013: 13:16:06
I love the argument that the people who brag on them are the ones that own them. HEY JACK, that is why they bought them--they liked them before they owned them. I sure didn't buy my old rims just so I could write on the Internet how good they are. I bought them because I like the sound I get from them.
Whew
steve davis - Posted - 04/26/2013: 14:37:04
I bought mine because it was the cheapest way out of getting a good banjo.
Ebanjo - Posted - 04/26/2013: 21:06:28
I'm with you Lightgauge. I play mine because I like the way they sound.
Eric Ellis
RB3WREATH - Posted - 04/28/2013: 02:58:32
It is simple these rims sound great all new makers strive to make rims that sound as good. They use variables like hide glue and such. Some use block construction and the bar that the hold their rims to is a good pre war rim Please explain this.
I am happy with my banjos and they have old rims
Joe
chrisward5 - Posted - 04/28/2013: 10:40:17
My Ford is faster than any Chevy...that's what this thread speaks.
1935tb-11 - Posted - 04/28/2013: 10:41:51
just sitting here pickin my old pre war and really feel bad for those who will never have this feeling of the old kick back you get when playing one of these. its like magic man.......ah the tone and power ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, LOL
P.S. in your dreams chris ,,, in your dreams !!!!!!!!!!!
terry m
Edited by - 1935tb-11 on 04/28/2013 10:43:44
steve davis - Posted - 04/29/2013: 05:18:38
quote:
Originally posted by chrisward5
My Ford is faster than any Chevy...that's what this thread speaks.
In a race there is only one winner.
All banjos sound good.
country frank - Posted - 04/29/2013: 05:37:27
Anyone want to comment on the wood density of their prewar rim?
i did on page 3 and hoped for further observations rather than the usual p***ing competition....
dickinnorwich - Posted - 04/29/2013: 06:05:27
"Some use block construction and the bar that the hold their rims to is a good pre war rim. Please explain this."
Very good point, Joe.
Speaking as one of those block rim builders, replicating (or improving upon) the acoustic response of "the PW rim" is the target of all rim builders. Jimmy Cox has certainly made it his life's work. But as I said earlier, the problem with this discussion is that it is occurring at two different levels because in general, while we refer to "the" PW rim as the acoustical standard, the fact remains that not all PW rims were created equal. And therein lies the problem with this discussion. There was a lot of structural variation (different wood types) in what we are loosely referring to as "the PW rim". As long as we continue this discussion as if all PW rims were made on the same day from the same tree, we're always going to remain slaves to a mythology. And that's not healthy. The fact remains that some PW rims are acoustically better than other PW rims. But many of them warped, split, separated and were badly fit. And so the idea that ALL PW rims, by definition, are, as a class, superior, is simply fallacious. Some definitely are. But others aren't. Some sound great, but the truth is, some simply don't.
Edited by - dickinnorwich on 04/29/2013 06:06:21
Banjophobic - Posted - 04/29/2013: 06:12:32
quote:
Originally posted by dickinnorwich
O.K., let's go at this another way:
In the period between the two World Wars, there were lots of other manufacturers of steam-bent, maple, banjo rims. Are we to believe that only those rims that happened to find their way from the manufacturer and into the Gibson facility are the only good PW banjo rims ever made? In fact, it's likely that whomever was doing the actual manufacturing of rims and selling to them to Gibson had contracts with various other banjo makers so as not to be dependent on one revenue source......meaning, that the wood used in those other rims was undoubtedly from the same (forest) source. Remember, that this was all occurring during the great clear cutting period of our nation when logging crews would go into a forest and strip it bare in a matter of days.
We are all talking about Gibson 3 ply rims, since they are the rims that are generally associated with 'bluegrass' style banjo construction. You wont see many 3 ply rims from old makers since the specs generally don't line up well enough to interchange them as easily. I think all of the prewar era 3 ply rims, if made well, regardless of manufacture company, can be considered 'equal'. But again, you dont see , for instance, paramount rims reworked into a mastertone style banjos, for obvious reasons.
But I do feel that the selection of wood, much of it being the old growth virgin stuff, and then the aging process over many decades, is what makes these rims so special. Thats not to say you cant make a quality rim today, or one that sounds great in your banjo. But to be honest here, when comparing some great sounding old PW rims to some highly favored newly made ones, the old ones do produce something 'extra' or have something going on you just can't quite describe in words.
banjoman56 - Posted - 04/29/2013: 08:35:41
John, I'm gonna open another can of worms with this question, but does it matter if the rim was built pre-war, or if it is newly constructed of wood that is from the same time period and place that Gibson that got their wood from, such as the maple used in the FF rims?
Banjophobic - Posted - 04/29/2013: 09:35:41
quote:
Originally posted by banjoman56
John, I'm gonna open another can of worms with this question, but does it matter if the rim was built pre-war, or if it is newly constructed of wood that is from the same time period and place that Gibson that got their wood from, such as the maple used in the FF rims?
Whew, that is a loaded question...lol. I believe the wood itself would probably be superior as a tone producer, in itself, compared to some of the currently available woods. But the age of the rim itself, is the big factor you cant ignore. Most of these pw rims have been in banjos, played, for about 8o years or so. You cant just look at the wood itself, but where its been and what its been exposed to. 
mvolcjak - Posted - 04/29/2013: 19:35:19
As per Banjoman’s post , this was actually one of my points in starting this thread. I see that many people believe it is the age of the wood rim, but Earl’s ’34 Granada was not “old” in the 40’s and 50’s and was just hitting 30 years old in the 60’s. Yet is still had “that” sound and it was not a vintage instrument during those time frames.
So, the major factor must not be the age of the rim, but rather the type of wood – where it came from – how it was put together, etc. (Refer to my original post that started the thread.) So, while I do believe that using an old Gibson rim removes the crap shoot as to what the "correct" wood is, I believe that a new rim, made from similar materials, (new old growth(?) maple or “old” submerged or salvaged wood), and using the same construction processes should yield similar results as a “real deal” pre-war rim.
Of course, that was also my original question – what makes these Gibson pre-war rims so different from other rims – pre-war (from other makers) and new? I do not know if anyone has (or can) actually answer this.
The one thing I have concluded from all of these posts is that the wood rim does have a major impact on a banjo’s ultimate sound/tone.
Take it Easy … MarK
steve davis - Posted - 04/30/2013: 03:16:36
Using the word "must" seems a bit strong.
Alex Z - Posted - 04/30/2013: 03:47:06
"I see that many people believe it is the age of the wood rim, but Earl’s ’34 Granada was not “old” in the 40’s and 50’s and was just hitting 30 years old in the 60’s. Yet is still had “that” sound and it was not a vintage instrument during those time frames."
This is a very insightful point.
Just because the Nazis invaded Poland in September of 1939 didn't do a darned thing for the tone of banjos made prior to that.
The five potential tone factors of the rim are:
1. The wood and the age of the wood -- which can be duplicated by recovered wood.
2. The age of the rim -- which as noted by mvolcjak above does not appear to be the sole factor.
3. The fit of the rim -- which can be duplicated.
4. The duration of playing time on the rim -- which as noted by mvolcjak above does not appear to be the sole factor.
5. The construction of the rim, such as dimensions of plies, glue, precision, etc. -- which are difficult to duplicate entirely and exactly.
Rims made in the 1930s may well sound pretty good. But the reasons they sound good ought to be explained from the perspective of 1953, not 2013. That has not been done yet.
Edited by - Alex Z on 04/30/2013 03:50:43
steve davis - Posted - 04/30/2013: 04:13:18
Today's top of the line banjos also sound great and will only improve over time.
Banjophobic - Posted - 04/30/2013: 06:42:18
quote:
Originally posted by mvolcjak
As per Banjoman’s post , this was actually one of my points in starting this thread. I see that many people believe it is the age of the wood rim, but Earl’s ’34 Granada was not “old” in the 40’s and 50’s and was just hitting 30 years old in the 60’s. Yet is still had “that” sound and it was not a vintage instrument during those time frames.
So, the major factor must not be the age of the rim, but rather the type of wood – where it came from – how it was put together, etc. (Refer to my original post that started the thread.) So, while I do believe that using an old Gibson rim removes the crap shoot as to what the "correct" wood is, I believe that a new rim, made from similar materials, (new old growth(?) maple or “old” submerged or salvaged wood), and using the same construction processes should yield similar results as a “real deal” pre-war rim.
Of course, that was also my original question – what makes these Gibson pre-war rims so different from other rims – pre-war (from other makers) and new? I do not know if anyone has (or can) actually answer this.
The one thing I have concluded from all of these posts is that the wood rim does have a major impact on a banjo’s ultimate sound/tone.
Take it Easy … MarK
Earl didnt get the Granada from Don till the late 50's I don'tr think, so by then, the banjo rim was over 20 years old and had the crap played out of it by Don, and a few other people before Earl-
. Any banjo that is 20 or more years old are actually considered vintage, although i understand what you are saying. But these rims were over 20-30 years old at the point of these classic eras for Bluegrass and adding that time and playing into the old growth wood, must have had a positive impact.
Fast forward another 50 years on those same rims we hear today, and you have 80 years total of age and playing, on top of the virgin wood.
country frank - Posted - 04/30/2013: 08:18:01
John,...... but are they 'softer' than contemporary rims?
Edited by - country frank on 04/30/2013 08:18:47
Banjophobic - Posted - 04/30/2013: 08:36:57
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Z
"I see that many people believe it is the age of the wood rim, but Earl’s ’34 Granada was not “old” in the 40’s and 50’s and was just hitting 30 years old in the 60’s. Yet is still had “that” sound and it was not a vintage instrument during those time frames."
1. The wood and the age of the wood -- which can be duplicated by recovered wood.
I don't think thats the case with most of this 'recovered' wood. The makers in those days didnt' bring up logs from a lake, or pulled up from floors. They used the old growth wood available at the time, had it properly seasoned/dried and then formed the rim. Trying to capture sonics from a rim made the usually way, but from logs laying in a lake is like trying to capture a vintage muscle car's throaty tone from some rusted out steel pipes that have been buried in an old bone yard ,and forming them into an exhaust that looks right.
I don't think it works for the simple fact that the old rims aren't made this way.
Banjophobic - Posted - 04/30/2013: 08:38:18
quote:
Originally posted by country frank
John,...... but are they 'softer' than contemporary rims?
I haven't found that to be the case, across the board. Prewar rims often were part 'red' maple' part harder species, and some were all hard maple.
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