1xsculler - Posted - 04/19/2013:  23:39:02

What do you guys and gals think about this one?  entertainment.ha.com/c/item.zx...dNo=21002

Seems very cheap and the condition doesn't raise major red flags to me.  What am I missing?  91 of them made and they're not making any more.  $200 to 300k seems like the going rate but I know Martin guitar collectors are very, very fussy.

Edited by - 1xsculler on 04/19/2013 23:45:02

banjobilly32 - Posted - 04/20/2013:  04:58:00

This is an auction and you won't see any serious bids till it is put on the block. A friend of mine owned a 1939 D45 and I even got to play it a few times.  He died about 16 years ago and his widow sold it for more that this bid at that time.

Note there is also the buyers premium to be added to the bid which runs this to $110,000 as it stands.  It will be interesting to see what it really brings.

beegee - Posted - 04/20/2013:  05:03:09

Yeh... the top being removed and a new bridge plate and bridge, refinishing, new pickguard, crack repairs...all are things that will drop the value. I have a friend who owns two that are original condition. Collectors like original, whether or not the instrument needs repair. This would make a great pro player, assuming it's structurally sound, plays good and sounds good.

Alex Z - Posted - 04/20/2013:  08:06:49

For an item whose value is determined by "collector's value", there are too many "it appears . . . ".   Also, notice the cracks near both edges of the fingerboard, cracks between the edge of the fingerboard and the sound hole.

This thing is not in good shape and has much too much work to be considered a tradable collector's grade instrument.  To be worth $100k, it must either (a) sound like a million bucks , or (2) appeal to a person who is willing to pay $100k to say they own a prewar D-45, and put it in a glass case for display.  There could be an investment banker or rock star out there who will pay the price.

The Old Timer - Posted - 04/20/2013:  09:04:40

I have my doubts. Tuners seem wrong to me for one thing, perhaps at least replaced.



The main issue for me is, "is it a REAL D-45 or a converted D-28?".



In the 60s it was well known there was a "little Mexican guitar shop" that would convert a 28 to a 45 and there was basically ONE WAY to recognize it. The 45 has a larger diameter set of rosettes around the sound hole compared to 28. You can't fake that on a 28 conversion.



On an old 28 I measure the max. rosette width across is 9/16". On a factory repro 45 I measure the max. rosette width is a full 3/4". Which happens to be the same distance as the outer edges of frets 12 to 13. I leave it to those interested to compare in the auction photo the rosette width compared to the outer edge to outer edge distance of frets 12 to 13. Realizing the futility of trying to make any definitive measurements on a photo on a computer screen.



Also, the outer white binding on the body is a bit "too" distressed looking, compared to the rest of the guitar, in my opinion.



I'll be very surprised if this will go for really top money. The few folks prepared to spend for the best may also find their own warning signs that cause them to back off.



I make no accusations, I'm not an expert, and I'm not advising anyone other than to use appropriate caution when considering spending this kind of money. Like buying a house. And I'm not bidding on this.

Let me add, in an excess of caution, I'm only commenting on the PHOTOS, not on the actual guitar, which I haven't seen and will make no effort to see.

 

Edited by - The Old Timer on 04/20/2013 09:06:06

The Pope - Posted - 04/20/2013:  09:13:55

The blurb does say "The tuners are newer open gear Grovers." Good eye, Old Timer! 

mikehalloran - Posted - 04/20/2013:  17:37:57

No provenance listed?

1xsculler - Posted - 04/20/2013:  18:09:06

So, do you think they buyer got a good deal at $116,500?  My very uneducated guess is that it was a very good buy but some of you certainly know much better than me.  How often does one come up?  

jfb - Posted - 04/20/2013:  18:20:35

If it was genuine, it  was a good deal..

some years ago, someone sent me an email ref one on ebay that went for $227k, If memory serves me right..

I sold one in 1981, may be the worst mistake I have ever made regarding an instrument, do doubt..

buddyp - Posted - 04/20/2013:  18:24:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by 1xsculler

 

So, do you think they buyer got a good deal at $116,500?  My very uneducated guess is that it was a very good buy but some of you certainly know much better than me.  How often does one come up?  

---

It is impossible to know if the buyer got a "good deal" at that price. 

The guitar has had a lot of work, if the work had been done by one of the Martin Prewar experts, their name would have been mentioned on the listing.  In order to determine the value of this instrument one would have to be a Martin expert or take the instrument to a Martin expert.  Without a complete expert examination there is absolutely no way to determine if this price, or any other price, is a 'good deal".

But bear in mind that a nice D28 from the 30's that hadn't been tampered with, could be worth more than this particular D45.

Edited by - buddyp on 04/20/2013 18:26:41

1xsculler - Posted - 04/20/2013:  18:37:21

At that money you would have to fly there and inspect it before paying for it. You might even have to pay an expert to meet you there if necessary. If there was any question concerning authenticity you wouldn't take it. You wouldn't be obligated if it wasn't what it was represented to be, would you? I guess you could be in a bind because they did recommend that prospective buyers check it out during the preview.

1xsculler - Posted - 04/20/2013:  19:33:39

Should'a, could'a, would'a is so easy to say when it's too late. If it's authentic, ,and I'd say HA guarantees that it is someone just might make 100k. It's fun to beat up on one's self anyway.

f5loar - Posted - 04/20/2013:  21:23:27

It closed at $110,500 from the only internet bidder it had.  There was 2,910 views of it.  Sounds like most of the interested buyers were there and it went over their "hands on" inspection limit.  When HA says "significant restoration" with a condition of only "good" it's a basket case.  HA is the No. 1 worst describers of vintage instruments.  If the restoration work was done by someone like Arnold/Musellwhite/Gruhn/Wood/XXX they would have said so.  While they gave some details of the work done on it, I'll bet they didn't tell it all.  It could have had a new top put on it 50 years ago by Martin.  Any mention of it being "blacklighted"?  Nope!  They could care less in giving out an accurate description.  You would think they would to help up the bids to give them more % dollars or not!  Maybe less said the higher the bid.  See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil as the 3 wise monkees said.  For 110K I'll take a vacation home in the Bahamas!  You are better off gambling in Vegas than at HA on their photos and descriptions.  And I don't care who I offend with this statement.  It's the truth!

1xsculler - Posted - 04/20/2013:  22:29:55

I appreciate and respect your perspective.  I feel better already.

steve davis - Posted - 04/21/2013:  10:20:33

I've had only good experiences with HA auctions with instruments that were better than described.

They have a return policy.

Edited by - steve davis on 04/21/2013 10:21:27

TB-4 Guy - Posted - 04/21/2013:  12:11:58

That instrument looks rather "gritty" to me. The top removal with extensive repairs along with the shadow around the bridge would be a show-stopper, even if I were looking for something in that price range.

That said, I guess the rarity might be a strong factor in the minds of some collectors. Some would even consider it a bargain, I guess. I recall that Roy Rogers' 1930 OM-45 Martin guitar brought around $390,000 plus premium a few years ago at Crhisties in New York City. We are talking real provenance there however and the condition, while not mint, was completely original with no major repairs and most of the finish intact.

f5loar - Posted - 04/21/2013:  19:08:38

Oh i've gotten some steal of a deals from HA because they didn't get the descriptions correct.  That don't make it right.  You can try to send it back but you will get far less than a full refund by the time you pay shipping both ways and minus the commissions on both ends.  The biggest mistakes I see most often is they get the date wrong.  Sometimes 10 years off!  They often miss replaced non-factory parts/repairs on Martins/Gibsons guitars and mandolins.  One time they actually ran a fake 30's F5 Fern. Had fake labels with fake serial no. in it and they still thought it was the real deal.  That one did return and it ran again as a copy next time.   As far as banjo parts, forget it.  You get what you see and sometimes you get lucky.  Why that RB4 from the 70's might have had a real prewar flathead tonering in it.  The only way to find out is be the high bidder.  It could also be a made in china tonering.  No refunds on that cause they don't tell you what kind of tonering.

steve davis - Posted - 04/21/2013:  19:20:37

You have to temper what you pay for some degree of unknown.

I wouldn't invest that much money without holding the instrument.

1xsculler - Posted - 04/22/2013:  01:16:37

With HA you pay your money and take your chances.  I wouldn't want to rely on their return policy.

steve davis - Posted - 04/22/2013:  03:27:59

You take your chances at any auction,I suppose.

I had fun winning 2 bids at HA.Very exciting having a reserve to throw down in the last 20 seconds and getting the timing right.

I suppose it is somewhat of a gamble,but that's not an issue if you have no problem gambling with 110k.

Edited by - steve davis on 04/22/2013 03:31:51

Jim Yates - Posted - 04/22/2013:  08:11:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Old Timer

 

The main issue for me is, "is it a REAL D-45 or a converted D-28?".



In the 60s it was well known there was a "little Mexican guitar shop" that would convert a 28 to a 45 and there was basically ONE WAY to recognize it. The 45 has a larger diameter set of rosettes around the sound hole compared to 28. You can't fake that on a 28 conversion.



 

---

Don't know about the "little Mexican guitar shop", but I do know that the late Mike Longworth made his living converting D-28s to D-45 look-alikes.  I recall his ad on the back cover classifieds in Sing Out! magazines from the sixties.  He did such a good job that Martin hired him to do the inlay when they re-issued the D-45.  He later became the official Martin Historian.

Jim Yates - Posted - 04/22/2013:  08:32:56

It seems to be widely believed that all but 2 of the original pre-war D-45s are accounted for, so it would not be too hard to check this one out.

f5loar - Posted - 04/22/2013:  11:08:02

CE Ward turned out a few of those prewar 28 to 45s to in the 70's.  Easy to do if you got the know how and the right tools and materials.  Sand down the neck block inside and restamp a new model and serial no. close to the originals.

jfb - Posted - 04/22/2013:  17:45:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jim Yates

 

It seems to be widely believed that all but 2 of the original pre-war D-45s are accounted for, so it would not be too hard to check this one out.

---

When I talked to Mike Longworth on the phone ref the one I had, he said it was the 46th of the 91 that he knew about that had turned up based on the serial number..that was in 81..perhaps CE chose a good number (grins).. just kidding Tom

I am certainly no Martin expert (or banjo for that matter ) but I am reasonably sure that I would be glad to buy it back for what I sold it for

f5loar - Posted - 04/23/2013:  00:03:19

I bet you didn't get 100K for it!  I turned down a '42 D45 for $10K in 1985 because I didn't like the neck and the extra big pickguard.  Then I turned down a near mint 1938 D45 with a perfect neck and sound like a band of angles for $50K in 1991 because I didn't have the money then.  I'm still loosing sleep over that one!

jfb - Posted - 04/23/2013:  04:39:34

Not even close..but as is sometimes said, hindsight is always 20-20.  I would compare the sound of the guitar as the Martin equivalent of my banjo, it was a great one, booming sweet sound..but I was totally into finding old Gibson banjo's at the time..

bbanjoboy - Posted - 04/27/2013:  07:50:08

As far as HA goes, I've had 2 dealings with them and here's what happened.. the first was a '27 TB-3 that they said had newer parts and they weren't sure of the year..Also the res had been refinished.. I got it for a SONG... turned out to be all original parts that had been chrome plated.. the only newer part was a '70's clamshell .. I stripped the chrome, refinished the res, gold plated and engraved the parts and had one of the most beautiful Granada conversions you've ever seen.. I even found some prewar gold plated planets for the new neck with original pearl buttons.. It was a great adventure and awesome banjo when finished.. and I wasn't destoying a prewar, the damage had already been done, I just cleaned her up... I really feel like I saved that one from it's miserable existence...
The next was my '27 TB-5.. they described it as in poor condition "in need of a total restoration"... well, that wasn't the case at all.. they had it assembled completely wrong with the flange plate above the tube and their lack of knowledge of banjos was clearly shown.. the gold is about worn off, but that's fine with me.. just means it's been played.... it went up for auction 3 times and here's what happened...
First time I was the high bidder but it didnt' meet the reserve.. second time I was outbid by about $100... but it 'sold'.. .third time I saw it come up, I asked them what the heck is going on? they said the buyer didn't pay and I wasn't notified because it was tied up in 'litigation' with the consignor...
But here's the kicker... they said the one I was callilng about (the third auction) was actually another banjo.. They claimed to have 2 '27 no-hole TB-5s..... they said the one on the second auction was a different banjo.. but it had the SAME pictures and description. PLUS, the one on the first auction had the same FON number as the one I won on the third auction..the one on the second auction they didn't list the FON number.. it was a very strange story and I'm 100% positive it was completely fabricated.. but I have NO idea why... at any rate, I was the high bidder the third time around and won the thing..for a very good price... way less than the reserve from the first auction and way less than the high bid of the second auction..just got it back from Ronnie Bales with it's new 'old' neck.. absolutely amazing.. all I needed was a replacement armrest and about an inch of binding replaced on the res and she's good to go... honkin like Ralph.. ABSOLUTELY amazing and I got it for about the price of a '20's style 4.... So, with HA, I would say it's definitely 'buyer beware', but good deals can be had.. luckily for me on the first banjo I was at the Dallas guitar show when the auction was going on and got to examine first hand the instrument before I bid, plus there's not a lot of banjo guys at the Dallas show....otherwise I wouldn't have risked it...

f5loar - Posted - 04/27/2013:  21:50:38

I have often found the wrong photos for the description given.  Called them about it and nothing gets changed by auction time.  One of the worst run Auction houses in the World. Banjo descriptions have always been vague on details.  I've seen photos of a tenor with a 5 string description.  I call them for a hands on inspection and they counted the strings and I was right, wrong photo.  Comes auction time photo the same.  They simple just don't care. I would never consider consigning my stuff with them.  Not sure how they are able to get cosignors.

steve davis - Posted - 04/28/2013:  05:35:03

The 70s Gold Stars I bought from HA were almost in brand new condition and bought cheap enough.

I don't care what they don't know as long as I get a great deal.

Edited by - steve davis on 04/28/2013 05:35:52