MoTappin - Posted - 04/21/2013:  18:27:40

Here is a question. If we opt for a heavier one with a tone ring, say an RK 35 for example, could we have the ring removed for a while, and stow it away for later, just to make it lighter? I know that on the R35 and I think the 25, you can take the resonator off the back as an option, and this helps with the weight too.



I was just thinking, if I find a really great deal on one that seems too heavy now, why not make it a little lighter for the time being, if possible?

Just adding here that I really, really, REALLY appreciate all the input!!  It is immensely helpful!

Edited by - MoTappin on 04/21/2013 18:28:21

dmiller - Posted - 04/21/2013:  18:37:33

quote:

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Originally posted by MoTappin

 

Here is a question. If we opt for a heavier one with a tone ring, say an RK 35 for example, could we have the ring removed for a while, and stow it away for later, just to make it lighter? I know that on the R35 and I think the 25, you can take the resonator off the back as an option, and this helps with the weight too.



I was just thinking, if I find a really great deal on one that seems too heavy now, why not make it a little lighter for the time being, if possible?

Just adding here that I really, really, REALLY appreciate all the input!!  It is immensely helpful!

---

No.

MoTappin - Posted - 04/21/2013:  18:37:59

Guess that answers that. :) Thanks.

dmiller - Posted - 04/21/2013:  18:40:05

I guess you don't like the looks of the Helix.

That's too bad.  It's a better banjo than these 

others (imo), but you're the one doing the buying.

truittsosebee - Posted - 04/21/2013:  19:18:39

I gotta think a RK 35 or 36 is the best choice. Put a good Lakota strap on it and he'll get used to the weight. I think If you go with any of the no-tonering options you'll find yourself looking to upgrade in a couple of years or less. Kids are tougher than we give them credit for; my 8 year old has decided he wants to play upright bass so he's been playing mine all weekend standing on a stool. Another good choice would be a Used Gold Star. I've seen a couple sell lately in your price range.

MoTappin - Posted - 04/21/2013:  21:14:15

I showed the pictures of the Helix to my boy but he wasn't too keen on them. I know they are highly regarded here, so perhaps when he matures a little he'll understand about that.

Thanks for the strap idea. I'll look into that. We really do like the R35, and he always plays sitting down, which would help with the weight.

Old Hickory - Posted - 04/22/2013:  07:31:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by MoTappin

Here is a question. If we opt for a heavier one with a tone ring, say an RK 35 for example, could we have the ring removed for a while, and stow it away for later, just to make it lighter?

---

No.  The head-bearing edge of the tone ring is higher than the top of the wood rim, so you would need either: (1) a lightweight wood tone ring to take the place of the metal one until your son was ready for the weight or (2) a replacement wood rim with integral wood tone ring.  Either of these can be made for you by any number of the luthiers and highly skilled home workshop banjo makers here on the Hangout.  Either option will probably cost several hundred dollars.

Or, you could just get the RK-25 that already IS a true bluegrass banjo but with no tone ring.  Later on, you can add a metal tone ring to it -- either by having the wood rim cut and lathed to accept the tone ring, or by buying an all new rim and tone ring (and selling the old rim).  That will cost you $250 and up (way up) for the tone ring plus some charge for fitting it to a rim (usually less than $100).

I really recommend trying to find various banjos in shops that your son can try.  Besides the overall size and weight of a banjo being a concern, so is the size and profile of the neck.  With his small hands, he's going to be better off with a slim neck and narrow.  That's one advantage of the CC-100R+ and the much higher level Deering Sierra that have been mentioned.  I agree, however, that if your son is really a future pro, he will very quickly outgrow anything less than a professional grade bluegrass banjo.  The entry level for that is the RK 25 (woodie) and RK 35 / 36 (metal).  A used Deering Sierra for $1000 or less would be a great value and should return most of the purchase price if you sell it later to upgrade to something fancier looking.  Looks (bling) is all the old Sierras lack.

MoTappin - Posted - 04/22/2013:  09:50:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by Old Hickory

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by MoTappin

Here is a question. If we opt for a heavier one with a tone ring, say an RK 35 for example, could we have the ring removed for a while, and stow it away for later, just to make it lighter?

---

No.  The head-bearing edge of the tone ring is higher than the top of the wood rim, so you would need either: (1) a lightweight wood tone ring to take the place of the metal one until your son was ready for the weight or (2) a replacement wood rim with integral wood tone ring.  Either of these can be made for you by any number of the luthiers and highly skilled home workshop banjo makers here on the Hangout.  Either option will probably cost several hundred dollars.

Or, you could just get the RK-25 that already IS a true bluegrass banjo but with no tone ring.  Later on, you can add a metal tone ring to it -- either by having the wood rim cut and lathed to accept the tone ring, or by buying an all new rim and tone ring (and selling the old rim).  That will cost you $250 and up (way up) for the tone ring plus some charge for fitting it to a rim (usually less than $100).

I really recommend trying to find various banjos in shops that your son can try.  Besides the overall size and weight of a banjo being a concern, so is the size and profile of the neck.  With his small hands, he's going to be better off with a slim neck and narrow.  That's one advantage of the CC-100R+ and the much higher level Deering Sierra that have been mentioned.  I agree, however, that if your son is really a future pro, he will very quickly outgrow anything less than a professional grade bluegrass banjo.  The entry level for that is the RK 25 (woodie) and RK 35 / 36 (metal).  A used Deering Sierra for $1000 or less would be a great value and should return most of the purchase price if you sell it later to upgrade to something fancier looking.  Looks (bling) is all the old Sierras lack.

 

---

Thank you for the information on the tone ring.  That makes sense now.  I like the RK25 too, but like you said, adding a tone ring, which we would eventually want to do, would cost.  At that point, we might wish we'd just gone with the 35 and let him grow into it.  At first, even his current banjo seemed heavy, and the neck too long and cumbersome, but he quickly got used to it and has no problem fretting all the way to the end now.  My feeling is he would also get used to a bigger, heavier instrument fairly quickly, even if he works his way into it, practicing on it more and more until he's using it all the time.  I don't want him growing out of it too fast, and I think once he gets a better jo he will progress faster...and so I've been told.

From what I've seen I'd say Johnny Mizzone wasn't much bigger at 8 1/2 than my kid is, if at all. :)   I think this is something he's going to be doing for the rest of his life...will be a big part of his life.  Just as an example, his teacher introduced him to Clinch Mtn Backstep on Friday, and went to show him how to play the first couple of lines, but Caleb (my boy) beat him to it, sight read it and played it exactly right the first time.  His teacher just shook his head and said, "what am I even here for?"  :)  I took piano lessons for 8 years and my kid is a better sight reader than I am.  LOL  He picks things up very quickly, and he's a lefty picking with his right hand.  I'm kinda proud of him...can you tell?  :)

Turnabout945 - Posted - 04/22/2013:  12:05:12

I was going to bring up Johnny Mizzone, but you beat me to it.  I've seen him play Gibsons and Hubers......never anything without a ring.   When I was 8, I would've been happy to deal with the extra weight in exchange for great sound.

john m - Posted - 04/22/2013:  23:55:48

Purchase a good used lightweight banjo for him to learn on...lot's of great choices have been suggested.

As your son matures both physically & musically you can sell the banjo for about what you purchased it for, and move on if he so desires. Make it easy on him to play.

stelling man - Posted - 04/23/2013:  13:03:29

Mo, Do check out the RK-35, you won't do any better, It's a real Bluegrass banjo with a Real Bluegrass tonering In It, I think your son will love It..

STELLING MAN

MoTappin - Posted - 04/23/2013:  14:13:11

Thanks Stelling Man....we are seriously doing that. I would rather let him take time to grow into a new jo, than have him grow out of it in a year or two. I am pretty confident in the little dude. :)

Edited by - MoTappin on 04/23/2013 14:13:32

Ybanjo - Posted - 04/23/2013:  15:07:59

The Gold Tone BG150F is not very heavy and plays good enough for him to get to the next stage. I happen to have a used one in absolute mint condition, but have no idea of pricing. If at all interested, it would be less than you price limit for sure. I have a BG250F in mint condition as well, but it's very heavy.

Edited by - Ybanjo on 04/23/2013 15:19:26

MoTappin - Posted - 04/23/2013:  15:14:28

Here's my boy practicing Cripple Creek today. He's been working on this one about 3 weeks...still ironing some kinks out and working on getting faster.

 

youtube.com/watch?v=18Y6pNftrt8

Edited by - MoTappin on 04/23/2013 15:16:19

ecg - Posted - 04/23/2013:  15:46:13

MoTappin,

I own an RK-35 and love it, and I think it would work very good for Caleb. I really do not think I will ever buy another banjo again.

On a side note, I noticed that your son does not anchor the pinky or the ring finger of the picking hand. This, in the long run, can affect his learning, because he will have to get rid of this habit. Most of the pros plant either the pinky or the ring, or both fingers. Just something to consider.

Good luck with your purchase!

MoTappin - Posted - 04/23/2013:  15:50:11

Thanks ecg. His teacher and I both remind him to do that, but I needed a reminder to remind him. :)

ecg - Posted - 04/23/2013:  16:15:18

LOL, all 8-year olds are like that, right? as well as guys in their 50s like me :) Well, there´s plenty of time to correct that, and the most important thing is, he is having FUN!

MoTappin - Posted - 04/24/2013:  10:04:57

Well, we did research, asked around, went to a local dealer to try some, and settled on finding the best deal on the best quality banjo we could afford. Just completed the purchase of the RK-35 on eBay. Brand new, but with real minor factory blemishes in the finish (listing had pics), which won't affect the play or the warranty. $575.

He played a similar Flint Hill model at a local dealer (they didn't have the RK in stock). He said "whoa, it's heavy" but then sat on a stool and played it. I think he'll get used to it, even if he works up to using it in 10 minute increments. :) We have this RK dealer 5 minutes away, so if he ever needs any adjustments on it or (hopefully not) warranty service, we've got a convenient source. BanjoHut wants $899 for it in their package, so I think we did well on the price. He's already got a hard case & the other stuff he needs. Seller said full setup would be done before shipping, but I'm sure his teacher can tweak it if necessary.

Could be here as soon as Friday, which is his lesson day. Little dude is gonna be ecstatic...I can't wait. :)

I really appreciate everyone's advice! Really helped us in our search, so we knew which models would serve well when we found a good deal.

ecg - Posted - 04/24/2013:  10:51:56

Great! let us know how it works for him.

RedStar - Posted - 04/24/2013:  13:06:56

Nice

I think it will suit him well for the long haul. Best of luck to you both.

Gee...my mother never bought me a banjo.....

Mark

stelling man - Posted - 04/24/2013:  13:09:29

Mo, you made a wise choice with the RK-35, your son will be happy with It for many years to come..

STELLING MAN

MoTappin - Posted - 04/24/2013:  13:31:59

Maybe I'll take over his old 'jo and learn to play a little, when I'm not too busy with opera stuff. LOL Well rounded family in this house. ;)

eagleisland - Posted - 04/24/2013:  17:33:55

It's a fine banjo.   Don't expect the local dealer to welcome you with open arms if you DO need warranty work - it's a resource for sure but he'll be well aware you didn't buy the banjo from him.  Not saying he won't come through - merely pointing out you might not be his highest priority.

Frostymama - Posted - 04/28/2013:  20:28:01

Your son will love it! If he needs a banjo that will take him to the next level at a good price, this one can do it.

BoneDigger - Posted - 04/28/2013:  21:40:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frostymama

 

Your son will love it! If he needs a banjo that will take him to the next level at a good price, this one can do it.

---

Agreed.  I am blown away by the tone of my RK35.  It's just a great banjo any way you look at it.

Todd

Helix - Posted - 04/29/2013:  04:46:23

I am strongly grateful for any consideration.


What I would like for you nice people to consider is carpal tunnel. No repetitive stress syndrome in a couple of years. Scruggs played at nine, muscle and bone.

The $500 Helix went quick, the new owner is in contact, they won't take the ad down. It was $1000 to start, they never played it in 6 months, whatever.

The RK35 can get a Helix rim changeout later if you like, you can lose about 3 pounds. I make openbacks with tubes. I use Fresnel ledges, it's simple,no one else does it, magnetic resonator now becomes optional, we don't publish hype, the other members don't either.

Tube & Plate is my favorite design, American innovation.

Someone wants to kick a little dirt, what you have is a real good import.

Real bluegrass sound that everyone at the back of the hall can hear, that's what we're after, real bluegrass is alive and well, it doesn't matter WHAT it gets played on, real bluegrass tone rings weigh 3 pounds which is too heavy for your son, sitting or standing, he'll grow. Ideas are changing based upon performance.

I always love to see parental support, well done.

For students in the future, I offer a student evaluation program which allows for the input of the student over a 6 month period, good grades, dressing nicely and being nicer to everything alive.

I am curious as to what any objections were, please contact me off-forum, I always want to do better, I can help in about a year to reduce weight, increase the quality of the tone. I'm an RK dealer, I've done RK changeouts. RK will probably take over the world in another 4 months, ask them to get a good T-shirt will you?

Best wishes, get in there, dive, dive.

( ))===='==::}

Maple, Black Walnut, Mango and Koa

docdobro - Posted - 04/29/2013:  06:10:34

Just a reminder to everyone, Recording King banjos with a factory blemish do not have any warranty.  That is one reason they are sold so cheap to dealers.  Many sellers do not make this clear when they sell these banjos.  The banjo will probably even have a warranty tag attached, but Recording King knows which ones have a warranty.

Edited by - docdobro on 04/29/2013 06:15:12

MoTappin - Posted - 04/29/2013:  11:48:31

Hmmm...that's interesting. The seller came right out and stated that it came with full factory warranty.

Edited by - MoTappin on 04/29/2013 11:51:20

Old Hickory - Posted - 04/29/2013:  12:07:06

Well, you have it from a dealer that you have a warranty. As long as they're an authorized RK dealer, they can make that claim and you should be covered.

Anyway, good choice.  If Caleb doesn't play it a lot at the outset, he can certainly grow into it. Check out the Sleepy Man Banjo Boys videos on YouTube and see 9- and 10-year-old Johnny Mizzone playing full sized, ful weight Gibson and Huber banjos, sometimes seated sometimes standing. 

Also, have your son watch and learn from Johnny's right hand. Fingers planted, heel of palm off the head.

I can't tell from your videos that the Epiphone banjo is holding Caleb back, but having the RK-35 now sure seems like a good idea. You got a great price on a new one; less than one will cost in the future.

Helix - Posted - 04/29/2013:  13:13:25

If you have any warranty questions, contact Recording King at the Music Link , or Greg Rich is a member of the hangout, I think it's wise to clarify.

You have a great banjo it's adjustable and durable.

MoTappin - Posted - 04/30/2013:  07:25:52

Thanks everyone! You are all so nice and helpful. He loves watching Johnny. He also getting better at remembering to plant that pinky on the end of the bridge. I'll let you all know how it goes and how he reacts to his new jo. :)

Old Hickory - Posted - 04/30/2013:  08:20:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by MoTappin

He also getting better at remembering to plant that pinky on the end of the bridge. 

---

Great!  But the pinky should actually be planted on the head, near the bridge.  I know a lot of people have a finger touching the bridge, but this can actually dampen the sound. Anything touching the bridge will do that.  I suppose touching the foot of the birdge lightly may not be a problem.  He definitely should not be pressing firmly against the bridge. That's what banjo mutes do! 

Do keep us posted on his progress.  So great to see someone so young doing this.

MoTappin - Posted - 04/30/2013:  12:28:28

Ahhh...that makes sense. I will follow up on that. I hope he will end up as good as Johnny Mizzone...when he's 12 or so. :) I'm certainly going to help him believe he can achieve whatever he wants. Right now I think he believes he can. :)

MoTappin - Posted - 04/30/2013:  15:52:01

Thanks everyone! You are all so nice and helpful. He loves watching Johnny. He also getting better at remembering to plant that pinky on the end of the bridge. I'll let you all know how it goes and how he reacts to his new jo. :)

MoTappin - Posted - 05/01/2013:  08:58:43

The banjo came yesterday, and if it's factory blemished I can't tell! I can't find the flaws the seller described. It looks pristine to me, so I am even more pleased than I expected. Caleb sat down and played it as soon as it came, and while he said it was heavy, he was a happy camper and can't wait to take it to his lesson on Friday. Since I'm a novice I can't tell how good the setup was. It definitely needed tuning after the shipping and of course the bridge had to be placed, but I'm sure his teacher can take care of any setup tweaks at his lesson. It sounds at least 100x better than his old one, as it should.

As a side note, my dad is an expert (professor in a college program) on carbon fiber. He is really, really good at making stuff with it, and he's going to look into making a tone ring for Caleb. Do you guys know of any resources he could look at that would be helpful?

I'm glad I found this place. I hope one of these days I'll actually be able to contribute instead of just asking questions! Bluegrass people are awesome. :)

Paulf - Posted - 05/01/2013:  13:04:24

This topic was about carbon fiber rings

banjohangout.org/topic/254644

Edited by - Paulf on 05/01/2013 13:04:54

MoTappin - Posted - 05/01/2013:  15:24:31

Thanks! No complaints about the banjo weight during practice today. :)

MoTappin - Posted - 05/01/2013:  16:55:09

Thanks! No complaints about the banjo weight during practice today. :)

ecg - Posted - 05/02/2013:  09:00:40

I´m guessing you won´t hear a lot of complaints about the weight from now on.

Now, about the carbon fiber tone rings, Wow! I completely missed that thread, it´s a great idea, and the banjos don´t sound half bad!

Please let us know if your dad makes a tone ring and how it turns out.

Thor - Posted - 05/02/2013:  13:08:23

Don't forget to shoot some video of Caleb playing his new banjo.

MoTappin - Posted - 05/02/2013:  13:51:21

Got this one yesterday.  He's known this one for a while but he wanted to play it first since he's got it memorized. Wouldn't you know it, I let him play it once through before I filmed, and that first time he played it a little faster with no mistakes.  Didn't do quite as well with the camera on.    youtube.com/watch?v=aEdHl6lNqqo