darels - Posted - 03/29/2013:  16:15:19

Well, I've had a goatskin head from Elderly laying around the house for a couple years, waiting for the gourd banjo that I REALLY AM going to build.  But I recently joined John Balch's "Hidehead" group, and he flung a cravin' on me.  I already had the head, but I needed something for a flesh hoop.  I know, 1/8 square brass, but I don't seem to have any of that laying around.  I could have cut one off an existing head, but...that seems a tad wasteful.  But in the back of my truck...galvanized steel high-tensile/electrical fence wire.  1/8" diameter, galvanized (so no rust), VERY stiff (it took me a while to bend it to fit my 11" rim).  I just put it on tonight, so we shall see what we shall see.  So far, looks good.

I use it to keep the cows out of my orchard, it's crazy strong.  I know it's not an option for everyone, but I suspect some of you are ranchers, and I suspect many more of you KNOW ranchers, and those guys have tons of this stuff laying around.

Heck, if you want some, PM me, I've probably got 5 or 600 feet laying around.

Darel

jbalch - Posted - 03/29/2013:  18:55:22

That should work great.  Let us know how it turns out.

Quartermaster James - Posted - 03/29/2013:  20:45:38

Ditto what John said.

First time round, I used round brass stock from the hardware store. It's still working.

I've even heard of folks using coat hanger wire, though it seems a tad thin too me.

I take it the galvanizing stayed on during the bending?

Did you join the ends with anything, or just butt them together? Both work. Just curious.

banjonz - Posted - 03/29/2013:  23:44:13

On occasion I use 1/8" grey PVC welding rod. It is flexable enough and I can 'join' it by using a naked flame till the ends soften.

darels - Posted - 03/30/2013:  05:52:48

Well, it tightened up nicely overnight, certainly didn't slip any.  Later today I'l take it off and finish the trim and treat it (as per John), then reassemble and string 'er up!  I joined the ends with a little piece of strapping tape, mostly just to make it easier to handle.  I'm not sure what the galvanizing is on this wire, but it's very thin, not that goopy stuff you get on nails and screws, so no flaking.  I've had the stuff around my orchard for 10 years now, no rust, no breaks - really no wear at all.  It's also very hard - you really have to bear down on the dikes to cut it;  I usually use a small bolt cutter up at the farm.  Got it from Kencove.  I'll let you know how it sounds this evening or tomorrow.

Fathand - Posted - 03/30/2013:  06:36:50

1/8" steel rod, about $2.00 for a 3 or 4 ft piece at the hardware store. I have had and seen several old banjos with this, Fairbanks, Washburn, Dixie Banjo Uke.

Bart Veerman - Posted - 03/30/2013:  07:13:53

Coat hanger wire works just fine, most of them are 1/8"  They're pliable enough to round them into a hoop with just your thumbs. I join the ends by slipping a piece of brass tubing (hobby shop, model airplane fuel line) and solder it with regular solder.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 03/30/2013:  07:20:10

My first Stewart had a 1/8" iron wire flesh hoop that had a neat locking scarf joint filed into the ends. It was simply lashed together with cotton thread...which evidently worked fine. It is still on the banjo after I re-headed it in the 1980's (but I used fine copper wire to lash the ends together).

8 gauge copper ground wire also works well. I believe that's what Jim Hartel uses on his Minstrel style banjos.

There is no absolute need to join the ends of the flesh hoop to make it structurally sound, I've done quite a few with the ends simply taped with Scotch tape. The head pulls it all together.

rcmoore - Posted - 03/30/2013:  08:29:19

I have about 40 flesh hoops from old banjos.  Most are unplated steel wire about the size of coat hanger wire.  Most have rust on them.  I do not reuse them because they simply rust again after being wetted during installation. Someone gave me a bout a zillion feet of 1/8 inch galvanized wire which I have been using without any undesirable consequences.  Reasonably easy to form with just my hands.  I also have some thinner wire which works well with the very thin, tight fitting,  tension hoops often found on old early 1900s cheap  banjos.  I use heat-shrink tubing to hold the ends of the hoop together until head tension takes over.  I place two lengths of tubing on the wire. Move one over the joint and heat it.  Wait a few seconds for it to cool, then move the second length of tubing over the first and heat it.  Works well for me.

Bob Moore

Edited by - rcmoore on 03/30/2013 08:31:10

Flesh Hoop 1

Flesh Hoop 2

Flesh Hoop 3

Bart Veerman - Posted - 03/30/2013:  08:54:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by rcmoore

 

 I use heat-shrink tubing to hold the ends of the hoop together until head tension takes over 

---

NICE!!!

jwold - Posted - 03/30/2013:  09:17:20

I used some copper grounding wire from Lowes, I soldered the ends together. Those flesh hoops can slide around if they're not joined.

I've read that square hoops tend to not let the hide stretch around as much as a round hoop.

rcmoore - Posted - 03/30/2013:  10:31:58

Over half of the old flesh hoops on the cheap early banjos, on which I have changed the heads, were not joined.   Flesh hoops on better made early banjos were almost always welded or soldered.  A few were joined with crimped brass tubing similar to what Bart does.   The only bad effect I have noticed with unjoined hoops was that in some cases the skin wore through on the sharp edges of the open joint.

Bob Moore

darels - Posted - 03/30/2013:  13:04:56

I was concerned about the cut ends of the wire cutting the skin, so I rounded them over with some sandpaper.  Probably unnecessary, since the tape covered them anyway.

darels - Posted - 03/30/2013:  13:25:49

Hmm, well apparently my tension hoop doesn't fit tightly enough to bind the layers of skin together, there are several spots where I can see the flesh hoop.  I assume this is going to be a problem? (it's my first time, so advice would be helpful.

rcmoore - Posted - 03/30/2013:  15:46:22

It depends on WHERE you are seeing the flesh hoop.  If it is between the tension hoop and the rim (AND the cut side is still close to even with the the top of the tension hoop), you are likely ok. Of course that assumes the tension hoop is not on the outside of the flesh hoop in those places.  If you can see the flesh hoop at the outside bottom of the tension hoop; then it will likely eventually come apart.  I hope this makes sense. I just re-read it and I'm not completely sure it does.  Maybe someone else can explain it better than I.

Bob Moore

Edited by - rcmoore on 03/30/2013 15:47:21

darels - Posted - 03/30/2013:  16:30:35

Hmm..after trimming, there are a few places where I can see the flesh hoop between the folded-up portion of the head and the head that is on the rim.  I re-mounted the head on the rim under very light tension, and ran some water all around the rim, hoping it would glue those pieces together.  It seems like it shouldn't really matter, the pressure of the tension hoop should hold the hide to the flesh hoop anyway, but I DON'T KNOW, I've never done this before.

darels - Posted - 04/04/2013:  20:22:14

Well, I can see where the skin has pulled down a little in a few places, but overall it seems to be holding.  I'm going to call this a qualified success.  Having lived with it for about a week, and taken it up to tension...I'm sold.  This thing sounds great, none of that high end "sizzle" that I got from the Remo top-frosted, and I don't have to mute it to keep me from being run out of the house.  I can't really describe it, it's just a very "natural" sound.  I'm extremely pleased, and would encourage anyone looking for a real "old-time" sound to investigate using a skin head, either on your own or one of John's pre-mounts.  I'm really impressed with the difference even on my cheap Epiphone.

chadp - Posted - 04/05/2013:  06:59:22

I used some packing tape. It's what John Balch told me to do. It worked.

Jonnycake White - Posted - 04/05/2013:  09:19:22

Pardon my inexperience - I've only mounted a couple of hide heads - but it seems that having a pretty solid joint in the flesh hoop is a big help in mounting the head, even if after the fact it becomes moot.  My sequence is this:

1) place the skin over the top of the rim.

2) place the flesh hoop over the skin, pressing it down to the pre-stretched crown height evenly all around

3) fold the skin back up over the flesh hoop.  it's this step that having the solid joint really helps.

4) place the tension hoop over the skin and pull the excess skin up tight around the flesh hoop.

Am I wrong?

jbalch - Posted - 04/05/2013:  12:45:23

I use a similar procedure to what you describe.

On my flesh hoops, I find that clear packing tape is sufficient to hold the hoop ends together for this process. As you said, once the head is mounted the hide holds it in place. I like clear tape because it is thin (not too bulky) and can't be seen through a translucent hide.

MANY if the vintage heads I've replaced are not joined at the ends at all.  In fact there is often a gap of as much as 1/2".