HarleySpirit - Posted - 02/20/2013:  08:12:58

Hi,

Some of you may remember my C#EAE tuning experiment topic, presented to this forum some time ago.

C#EAE tuning is a modification of Martin Carthy's EADEAE guitar tuning (sometimes called "Pipe" tuning), and suits the key of "A" very well.

Some of you may also be interested in the old-time "Open G" version of this tuning:

B D G D (Low B to High D)  

The "Open G" tuning BDGD is a whole step lower than C#EAE  and  and, of course, suits the key of "G" very well.

Both banjo tunings give you that "DRONE" sound effect, often used in BLUEGRASS. Both are great for simple chords and melody. No string guage changes are necessary although some may prefer a heavier guage for the "Open G" tuning. Here is a sample for your taste buds:

youtube.com/watch?v=ZLhcmuIs2p...=youtu.be 

                           -----------------------------------------------------

How to retune your GDAE tuned banjo to this old-time "Open G" tuning BDGD:

e.g. Using regular Irish Tenor Banjo string guages (.036 - .024 - .016 - .012) 

1) Lower the first two thin strings (A&E) a whole step each to G&D.

2) Raise the 4th *.036 heaviest string from "G" to B.

3) The 3rd * .024 string "D" remains the same ( an octave lower than the first string) Its that easy!  

Note: "Some mandolin players like to use AEAE or GDGD. Both of these old-time tunings are either referred to as OPEN A, A CROSS, OPEN G, or G CROSS. Some might call these SAWMILL TUNINGS."

Chord charts for both banjo tunings are available here:

users.eastlink.ca/~harleyspi/C...enor.html

"Open G" and "Pipe" tunings! Have you tried them? Do you like the BDGD or C#EAE tunings? Comments welcome!

P.S. I just added a 3rd tuning "OPEN C" (CGCE) chord chart, now available at the same site! All 3 tunings are great for plectrum or finger style picking. Enjoy!

---------------------------------------

Harley Spirit

Edited by - HarleySpirit on 10/15/2013 04:01:15

Muskrat - Posted - 08/03/2013:  15:39:28

Interesting tuning. Thanks.

Stardust - Posted - 10/07/2013:  21:01:53

Excellent! Thanks Harley,

This alternate tuning technique looks like a great way to keep beginning tenor players (like me!) from breaking down and having to buy a 5-string Bluegrass instrument. I'm a relative beginner to both types or styles, but I own a new tenor instrument and I've set it up with GDae tuning, so I'm eager to try this out with a couple of key beginner tunes like Cripple Creek, etc..

However, I'm curious about your thoughts on the string gauges you've cited here (12-16-24-36), particularly the 0.016" 2nd string? I've been researching this business of 'best gauges' for GDae tuning now for the better part of a week, and I've seen loads of references by experienced players here and elsewhere, most of which have suggested a 2nd string much heavier than 016. I'm assuming an .016" string is unwound (plain or stainless steel), and in recent days, most lists that I've seen are calling for stuff as heavy as 0.022 for that 2nd (a) string, which of course is a much heavier wound string. 

Anyway, could you please share your thoughts with me on this? With GDae tuning, are you recommending the use of unwound strings for high 'a' and high 'e' (#2 and #1) in diameters as close together as 016 and 012, respectively? I'd sure appreciate your point of view on this, and the views of any other players as well.

Many thanx..

Edited by - Stardust on 10/07/2013 21:12:01

HarleySpirit - Posted - 10/08/2013:  06:52:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stardust

... Anyway, could you please share your thoughts with me on this? With GDae tuning, are you recommending the use of unwound strings for high 'a' and high 'e' (#2 and #1) in diameters as close together as 016 and 012, respectively? I'd sure appreciate your point of view on this, and the views of any other players as well.

Many thanx..

---

Hi Stardust,

Not claiming to be an expert on banjo strings... I just go by the packaged strings that came with my banjo and I'm still using the same brand:

D'addario Irish Banjo (made in USA) J631 set of 4 Strings, Nickel Wound, .012 - .016 - ,024 - .036

So far, when I need to refresh my strings, I keep buying the same ones. they work fine for me. Right now my banjo is tuned to "Open C". My playing can improve, but my banjo sounds great!

-----------------------------------

Harley Spirit

Edited by - HarleySpirit on 10/08/2013 06:53:18

Stardust - Posted - 10/08/2013:  11:22:27

Harley,

Thanks for your reply and no worries! I'm no expert at these things either, in fact, I'm an absolute beginner, so its all a good discussion as far as I'm concerned. Anyway, its my bad . . . from the title and content of your posting, I just assumed (wrongly so) that you were tuning in GDAE, and from what I can tell, most folks using that so-called "Irish" or "Celtic" tuning are using strings of heavier gauge, sometimes significantly heavier. For example, I've seen references to custom sets as high as .014, .022, .032, .046.

However, for me, its not so-much the different gauges that is of interest, but rather, this business of wound vs. unwound 2nd ('A') string. I've seen several references here on BHO regarding the purported virtues of an unwound 2nd string vs. a wound one, and I don't think its physically possible to do so as the string diameters increase for the heavier GDAE tuning. So that's what prompted my posting here - I was just curious about whether you or others had any views on that particular issue.

Thanks again.

BlowingRockNC - Posted - 10/11/2013:  12:13:00

Maybe I'm not using the right terminology, but I just acquired a 1916 Fairbanks/Vega 5-string plectrum with 22 frets. I got it because I assumed I could tune it to DGBD, which would be the same as my old 5-string (minus the short string). Anyway, it tuned perfectly and plays perfectly with this tuning, so that's what I've been doing. I can use the same chords up and down the neck as I used on my old 5-string.

Stardust - Posted - 10/11/2013:  12:22:02

Yup, makes perfect sense to me. Other than the missing 5th string (0.010" = g), you've got the same exact tuning as standard 5-string, so I don't see why it wouldn't be the same? Once you get to fingerpicking it with the traditional 3-finger Bluegrass pattern, I imagine it may lack just a little bit of fullness from that one missing string, but as the owner and beginning player of a tenor instrument myself, that's exactly what I'm going to be messing around with here in the next couple of weeks.

BlowingRockNC - Posted - 10/11/2013:  14:31:14

Actually, I think the idea is to use a plectrum (flat pick) to strum and pick like you are flat picking a guitar. Using a three finger style picking would be possible, but why bother with having jus 4 strings if you're going to finger pick the same way you would pick a 5-string. Just thinking out loud. Anyway, good luck.

Stardust - Posted - 10/11/2013:  14:43:42

For me, a flat pick or plectrum and/or the strumming of chords just aren't what I think about with a conventional 5-string banjo or even a 4-string that is open-tuned. Despite having one less string, I'd be inclined to apply rapid (staccato-type) Bluegrass style fingerpicking to those open tuned 4-strings, just like you would with a 5-string, but then again, I'm an absolute beginner, so what do I know?



Anyway, thanks again for sharing your thought and best of luck to you as well.

Edited by - Stardust on 10/11/2013 14:44:11

BlowingRockNC - Posted - 10/11/2013:  18:22:00

I'm kind of conflicted on this issue. The OT jam folks seem to dislike the idea of finger picking a banjo, while the BG folks think finger picking is the only way. I like both types. Bottom line for me is that I am splitting between both. I've got a 4-string that I plan to use for OT, and I've just purchased a 1920 openback 5-string to use for BG. I also plan to see if I can survive trying the 5-string in an OT setting. I like the sound of both very much, so it's hard for me to select one over the other. I guess I'll see how this turns out over time, then adjust as needed. Good luck to all of us as we follow our selected paths.

Stardust - Posted - 10/11/2013:  18:34:50

I agree. The only real way to do it right is to own and play both instruments (4-string and 5-string). Although its fun (and somewhat instructional) to dink around with, I think any meaningful crossover between the two (in terms of alternate tunings and the like), is just a band-aid. I can't personally afford a 5-string yet (just finished buying my 4-string!), but I too will buy a 5-string one day soon. Good luck!

HarleySpirit - Posted - 10/14/2013:  04:08:10

Hey Guys,

Thanks, but I think you're discussion is getting a little side-tracked. This thread is about introducing tenor banjo players to some old "Sawmill" and alternate tunings, for the 4 string tenor banjo. These "Open tunings" would present you with a droning effect, which might be desirable for some bluegrass tunes or fingerpicking CH sounds on the 4 string.

-----------------------------------

Harley Spirit

Edited by - HarleySpirit on 10/14/2013 04:15:57

Stardust - Posted - 10/14/2013:  13:01:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by HarleySpirit

 

 . . . These "Open tunings" would present you with a droning effect, which might be desirable for some bluegrass tunes or fingerpicking CH sounds on the 4 string.

-----------------------------------

Harley Spirit

---

?????

Thanks Harley, but with all due respect, the very Title of your thread is "Open G and Open C Tunings" (??), and yes, these tunings yield a droning effect, whether its on a 4-string or 5-string. So I'm afraid I don't really see any significant "side-tracking" or hijacking of this thread in that regard. Please also keep in mind that while exotic for the 4-string, Open-G tuning is the standard tuning for 5-string Bluegrass, which in fairness, makes for a very natural and almost immediate potential for crossover between the two different instruments or styles. However, if you're saying that you'd prefer a fresh, newly initiated thread to address the ever-so-slight amount of overlap in this regard, then no worries! I understand completely and we can certainly do that.

Thanks again.

Edited by - Stardust on 10/14/2013 13:04:46

HarleySpirit - Posted - 10/15/2013:  04:06:09

Ok Guys,

The Title has been edited accordingly. 

Thanks,

--------------------------------------------

Harley Spirit

Mirek Patek - Posted - 10/15/2013:  07:45:07

Well, if the title of this thread has been changed to Alternate and Sawmill Tunings for 4 string Banjo, I am going to claim that the 4-string banjo tuning that matches as closely as possible the 5-string banjo sawmill tuning (gCGcd) is CGdg. Look at the scheme, which demonstrates that four of the five strings of 5-string banjo sawmill tuning are preserved, just the (original) 2nd string is missing and the high g string is moved to the treble side:

      ---g
d----/---d
c---/-...
G--/-----G
C-/------C
g/

The example of frailing in CGdg tuning is at youtube.com/watch?v=z8rabbtQ1T8 or at youtube.com/watch?v=HyCUQHn1OmM (the corresponding article to the 2nd video is at mirekpatek.com/melbay/BanjoSes...Patek.pdf ).

Mirek

mirekpatek.com/

HarleySpirit - Posted - 10/15/2013:  10:13:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mirek Patek

Well, if the title of this thread has been changed to Alternate and Sawmill Tunings for 4 string Banjo, I am going to claim that the 4-string banjo tuning that matches as closely as possible the 5-string banjo sawmill tuning (gCGcd) is CGdg. Look at the scheme, which demonstrates that four of the five strings of 5-string banjo sawmill tuning are preserved, just the (original) 2nd string is missing and the high g string is moved to the treble side: 

Mirek

Hi Mirek,

Thanks for your enthusiastic input!

Lately (as mentioned in my first post) I have been using "Open C" tuning "CGCe" for my 4 String Tenor Banjo. All claims aside,  this tuning is just as close a match to the similar 5 string banjo sawmill tuning (gCGcd) you mentioned. Only the first string differs, by changing to an "e".

Note: "Open C" tuning is especially effective for plectrum or finger picking methods, as are so many of the fine alternate tunings presented in this thread. What a versatile instrument the 4 string banjo has become to many of us. Keep on experimenting and continue to inform the rest of us. We want to hear from you!

Thanks,

---------------------------------

Harley Spirit 

Edited by - HarleySpirit on 10/15/2013 10:25:40

jlkehn - Posted - 10/16/2013:  12:38:09

totally confused here. I'm a beginner as I have just gotten my 4-string. before I get to learning and all I want to be sure its tuned properly. seeing all the different options, I don't know which way is up. so many different tunings and string gauges. I don't know what is on my banjo now. does a particular gauge corelate with a particular tuning?

Stardust - Posted - 10/16/2013:  14:09:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by jlkehn

 

totally confused here. I'm a beginner as I have just gotten my 4-string. before I get to learning and all I want to be sure its tuned properly. seeing all the different options, I don't know which way is up. so many different tunings and string gauges. I don't know what is on my banjo now. does a particular gauge corelate with a particular tuning?

---

Greetings, and welcome to the world of the 4-string tenor banjo! Like you, I'm a beginning player, and virtually everyone on this board knows more about this subject than I do, but I've learned a fair bit in recent weeks, so I'll be happy to help you wherever I can. I'm sure someone here will take exception to something I'm about to say, but basically, its like this . . . 

1) The 4-string banjo comes in two different scale lengths, 17-fret = 21" and 19-fret = 23".

2) The 4-string banjo is used to play both Dixieland/Jazz style music as well as Irish Tenor Music (ITM).

3) Although different players with different musical interests prefer and play both scale lengths, the 19-fret (23") version is apparently preferred by most ITM players.

​4) The two most common tunings for 4-string tenor are CGDa (17-fret and 19-fret) and GDAe (mostly 19-fret).

​5) CGDa tuning appears to be favored by Dixieland/Jazz players and some ITM players, but GDAe is apparently preferred by the majority of traditional ITM players.

​6) CGDa tuning typically uses a lighter gauge of string (e.g., 28-20-12-10) while GDAe tuning typically uses something heavier (36-26-18-12).

And lastly, you'll notice that I've used the terms "appears" and "apparently" rather liberally here. That provides me with a purposeful disclaimer, so that I have somewhere to run to when (and if) I get flamed by the general membership for knowingly publishing false information with malice of forethought and the clear intent to defraud ;-)

Anyway, good luck with your new tenor banjo - I hope you have as much fun as I'm having!! Its a ball!