ACFairbanks - Posted - 01/05/2013:  14:48:37

Howdy,

I'm A.C. and have been playing for something over 55 years...

I play claw on two Fairbanks banjos. One, a 1905 WL-7 and the other an 1894 Electric Special 5. Both are in great original shape, and it probably won't surprise you that they are a source of joy.

I am having (what has become) an amusing problem with the older instrument:

It is strung with Nylguts and had a wound fourth. On the WL, I had been using the unwound Red fourth, and really liked it. So earlier today, I decided to put a Red fourth on the Electric.

The banjo has a cam type No Knot tailpiece, so installing the string ordinarily takes on the order of fifteen seconds...

I slipped the end of the string into the space just forward of the cam, looped the string around the top "stirrup," threaded the other end through the peg hole, and started to raise the tension.

Then... the string broke.

It broke about 3/8" from the stirrup, and I thought it a fluke. The strings are very long even before they stretch so it was no big deal to install the (now very slightly shorter) string once again. I had no concern when I did just that three more times before having to go to a second string, and then a third.

Now, I am well aware that these strings are prone to breaking if they are nicked, or pinched, and so, every time I broke a string, I checked the banjo with care at the area of the breaks, and I did that under magnification. But, as you can guess by now, I have been unable to find the source of the problem. Every surface that the string touches is as smooth as can be. I will add that at one point in this saga, I thought about the fact that the strings always break with that 3/8" tail remaining between the stirrup and the bridge. I thought "Aha..., it's breaking because it is running over the surface of the (grooved) tension hoop...!" but a careful look shows that the string clears the hoop by more than a sixteenth of an inch.

Also, it may be worth a mention that I have the same tailpiece on the newer banjo and the Red Fourth installs perfectly.

So here's the situation as I see it.  If I continue to try to handle this on my own, I can see three options:

1: I could purchase super high speed video equipment of the sort used to get those great pictures of bullets tearing through ballooons. I figure that with this approach I could solve the problem for something on the order of ten grand.

2: I could check myself into custodial psychiatric care. Expensive, but may be the easiest way out of this one.

3: I could go back to the wound fourth that I had been using. That would cost me about $1.25, but I would feel that I had been defeated by my beloved banjo, and it is even older than I am.

But there is another option:

I can post here in the hope that someone might have a solution for me...!

Sincere thanks for any help, or at least, for your good wishes,

A.C.

Mumble Peg - Posted - 01/05/2013:  14:55:39

Check the slot in the bridge. May be too tight for the unwound string.

Jason Wilkerson - Posted - 01/05/2013:  14:56:11

You forgot option 4: You can give up on that banjo altogether, throw up your hands in disgust and send it to me (I'll pay shipping), and forget about it forever. Problem solved.

ACFairbanks - Posted - 01/05/2013:  15:08:04

Hi Mumble,

I will certainly check the bridge, but the break is always more than three inches from the bridge...

A.C.

ACFairbanks - Posted - 01/05/2013:  15:10:46

Hi Jason,

You have offered just the sort of support I was hoping to receive... (But for now, you may have to settle for a photo...)

All the best,

A.C.

Pluckin Mutha - Posted - 01/05/2013:  15:11:11

Could it be getting "nicked" by the stirrup, then the stretching of the string pulls that nick 3/8 away before it breaks?

Mutha

Jason Wilkerson - Posted - 01/05/2013:  15:14:04

quote:

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Originally posted by ACFairbanks

 

Hi Jason,

You have offered just the sort of support I was hoping to receive... (But for now, you may have to settle for a photo...)

All the best,

A.C.

---

I'll take it. Of course, if you really want to make my evening, you could also include a tasty sound clip as well.

tymburrs - Posted - 01/05/2013:  15:22:20

You guys!!! I personally am lost but.. willing to read surgical procedure. Sounds like a TALE-Piece. :) Michael

shannonhearne - Posted - 01/05/2013:  15:44:22

It sure sounds like a tail iece prroblem.You might want to ease the downward pressuree on the strings created ny the no knot.

I know a no knot creats very little downward pressure, but nylon and nylgut, or gut, Strings are quirkey.

You might give it a try, or you might consider changing out the current tail piece for another. (I for no other reason than to see what happens.)

-Shannon

PS: What height is your bridge, and is the 4'th string slot large enough for the string?

ACFairbanks - Posted - 01/05/2013:  16:03:28

Hi Shannon,

The bridge is 5/8" and I believe that the bridge slot is fine for the string, but will certainly check it again.

But that said, I can't see how the bridge could be causing a break that is more than 3" away from the point at which the string rides over it.

I am quite sure that it is a tailpiece problem, though I will admit that I am confused by length of the piece of the string that is always left in the jaw of the cam. As I have described, it is always about 3/8" long.

By the way, I neglected to say that I also tried tying a loop in the end of the string, but the string broke very early in the tensioning process right at the knot.

The situation is confusing...

Thanks for any further help,

A.C.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 01/05/2013:  16:31:54

You have a 5/8" tailpiece on those banjos? They must have been "worked on" at some point.

The unwound strings are a bit flabby sounding. The fourth was always wound, and there was a good reason.

ACFairbanks - Posted - 01/05/2013:  16:45:37

Hi Joel,

The bridge is 5/8".

The tailpiece is a cam-type No Knot.

I liked the sound (and the lack of winding squeak) of the unwound fourth on the Whyte Laydie, and so thought to try it on the Electric.

I have had the Electric for about 40 years, and the WL for about 35, so, indeed, there may have been work done on 'em before my time, though I am not aware of any.

A.C.

ACFairbanks - Posted - 01/05/2013:  16:48:06

Hi again Joel,

I neglected to say that I have taken real delight in listening to your music...,

A.C.

ACFairbanks - Posted - 01/05/2013:  17:06:55

i quote:

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Originally posted by Pluckin Mutha

Could it be getting "nicked" by the stirrup, then the stretching of the string pulls that nick 3/8 away before it breaks?

Mutha

---

 Hi Mutha,

Yes, that could be just what is happening...

But I am unable to spot anything that seems to be the source of the "nick." Everything in contact with the string seems to be very smooth to the touch.

Also, it seemed to me that if the string had barely been stretched that it would "shrink" back to (approximately) its original length leaving little of the string visible beyond the point of the actual break. I certainly may be reasoning that incorrectly...

There is something else that I have noticed, but this may be hard to describe:

The cams are each (essentially) flat on top. Below that top, there is a smooth groove surrounding the entire cam and the string rests in that groove when installed. For the strings other than the fourth, the top of the stirrup is (roughly) parallel to the plane of the head when the strings are brought up to tension.

But for the fourth string (the one that keeps breakin',) the top of the stirrup slopes downward on the end nearest the neck. Looking at it, one might think that it is holding a string that is somewhat thinner than the others, but (unless it is somehow being crushed by the cam) it is holding the thickest of the strings.

In any case, as a result of this position of the cam, the string seems to touch the outer edge of the cam rather than resting in the groove everywhere it is in contact with the cam.

I suppose that the edge of the cam could be cutting the string, but it certainly seems to be very smooth to the touch. Also, assuming that this is the source of the problem, I don't know what I could do to correct it.

Thanks for any further thoughts,

A.C.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 01/05/2013:  17:28:36

You are about an hour north of me If you get down this way,  give me a buzz.

P.S. I have banjo thimbles and I make a darn swell historical correct bridge.

Pluckin Mutha - Posted - 01/05/2013:  17:31:06

quote:

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Originally posted by ACFairbanks

---

I suppose that the edge of the cam could be cutting the string, but it certainly seems to be very smooth to the touch. Also, assuming that this is the source of the problem, I don't know what I could do to correct it.

Thanks for any further thoughts,

A.C.

 

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Try swapping it with the tailpiece which does work properly and see if that works.

Mutha

ACFairbanks - Posted - 01/05/2013:  17:33:06

Hello again,

I just had a new thought about this...

I am going to try putting a shim on the neck side of the cam so that rather than the cam squeezing the string against the body of the tailpiece, the string would be squeezed between the shim and the body of the tailpiece.

Experimenting with the thickness of the shim should allow me to adjust the position of the cam when it is holding the tensioned string. That should eliminate the issue of the string rising out of the groove as I have described above. Either that will solve my problem, or it will take one issue out of the equation. 

I will know tomorrow if that works...

Thanks for your help thus far,

A.C.

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 01/05/2013:  19:15:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pluckin Mutha

quote:

---

Originally posted by ACFairbanks

---

I suppose that the edge of the cam could be cutting the string, but it certainly seems to be very smooth to the touch. Also, assuming that this is the source of the problem, I don't know what I could do to correct it.

Thanks for any further thoughts,

A.C.

 

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Try swapping it with the tailpiece which does work properly and see if that works.

Mutha

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 *DING!*

trapdoor2 - Posted - 01/05/2013:  20:43:22

Yah. *ding*. The other thing I might try is to delete using the cam portion. Tie a loop around the post/stirrup and see what happens.

Another alternative: use cam as normal but pass string on opposite side of post/stirrup.

I have not tried the red basses yet. Need to place an order w/Elderly.

I cannot think of a reason for any string to break out in thin air. As everyone knows, they're very sensitive to nicks and/or cuts and they stretch like crazy...but air?

Hoping for a visible solution. If it goes away on its own, we'll never know...and that's just as frustrating.

ACFairbanks - Posted - 01/05/2013:  20:59:10

Howdy,

Please see my comments inline below...

quote:

---

Originally posted by trapdoor2

Yah. *ding*.

I don't see what I would learn from switching with the other TP that I don't already know. I already know that I can use the Red Fourth successfully on one banjo, but it breaks every time I try to install the same string on the other. Given the location of the break, I am quite sure that the problem is caused by the tailpiece.

The other thing I might try is to delete using the cam portion. Tie a loop around the post/stirrup and see what happens.

As I mentioned, I already tried tying a loop and the string broke at the knot very early in the process of bringing the string up to tension.

Another alternative: use cam as normal but pass string on opposite side of post/stirrup.

I have already tried using both sides of the post. Still breaks the string. But if I am correct that it is the upper edge of the post that is cutting the string, that issue would be the same whether I go around the post in one direction, or the other.

I have not tried the red basses yet. Need to place an order w/Elderly.

I cannot think of a reason for any string to break out in thin air. As everyone knows, they're very sensitive to nicks and/or cuts and they stretch like crazy...but air?

We certainly agree... I have not viewed air as the problem.

Hoping for a visible solution. If it goes away on its own, we'll never know...and that's just as frustrating.

I hope that I will know more tomorrow when I have a chance to try shimming the post to change its angle when under tension.

---

All the best,

A.C.

Jason Wilkerson - Posted - 01/06/2013:  03:38:24

Here's a crazy thought.

Do you think it may be possible that you've somehow gotten some inferior strings? Maybe the problem's not the banjo at all, but a QC slip at the factory? I know virtually nothing about how those strings are made, and so I am not qualified to speak about what sort of possible QC failure could produce that, but when all else fails---look at the product that's failing instead of the apparatus it's failing on.

ACFairbanks - Posted - 01/06/2013:  14:30:22

Howdy,

Well folks, the problem is resolved...

The strings were being nicked, or cut, because of the angle of the cam.

If you look at the photo, you will see the issue, and I will describe my solution:

As you can see, the cam for the fourth string is now tilted slightly away from the neck. But earlier, that cam was in the position of the fifth string cam in this photo. With that tilt, the unwound fourth would apparently rub against the upper edge of the cam causing the trouble.

I tried slipping the end of the string into a small piece of thin shrink tube. That had the effect of "thickening" the string and with that, the cam moved into a position that allowed the string to stay in the intended groove.

By the way, the position of the fifth string cam is the same as that which was causing the problem with the fourth string, but the fifth string is thin enough that even at that angle, it stays in the groove.

I thank you all for your assistance,

A.C.

Edited by - ACFairbanks on 01/06/2013 14:34:06