UncleClawhammer - Posted - 11/23/2012:  23:45:14

Hello everyone. I've been playing the five string banjo for a while now, mostly playing old-time music,  but I enjoy and play many different kinds of music. I've been listening to jazz for a while, but since I've been in college I've fell in with a lot of people who play it and have decided to start learning some of that stuff. So, for a total newbie, what do I need to know to get started playing trad jazz and dixieland banjo? What kind of four string is a good one to get? I'm not even sure which one I need, a tenor or a plectrum. All tips and pointers greatly appreciated.

Edited by - UncleClawhammer on 11/24/2012 00:06:07

Franz - Posted - 11/24/2012:  01:01:59

I've been playing CH for two years now and have started playing plectrum several months ago - just for a change and because I like the music. I've chosen the plectrum over a tenor because of the tuning (the 4th string is tuned one note down to C). So, your plectrum playing gets a jumpstart since you already know most of the chord forming patterns. On the other hand, your Old Time skills get a boost by adding some nice cords or licks from the plectrum world.

At the very beginning, I used one of my fivestrings with the 5th string removed until I found out that the real plectrum neck is way narrower which is very important for easy melody chord fingering - so, I got a "real" plectrum banjo (in fact, I've built it from a Janet Davis' kit - can be seen on my avatar picture).

For learning, I'm using David Frey's Ultimate Plectrum Player's guide - a very comprehensive tutorial for both technique and songs / music.

Enjoy!

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/24/2012:  01:24:44

UC,

At your age you can´t do anything wrong!  Lucky You - LOL!

If I could start learning 4-string banjo from scratch - I would choose both banjo types and tunings - each has its own benefits.

As Franz mentions - it will at first hand maybe be the best for you to choose the plectrum and a CGBD tuning - but do keep an open mind - maybe later in life you´ll also want to learn the 5th tuning - f.ex. CGDA on a tenor banjo.

So - IMHO it´s not so much about type and tuning - the most important thing will be - get started at once.

Good Luck!

Polle

CGDA - Posted - 11/24/2012:  06:02:46

I recently purchased a DVD recorded live in Spain by Eddy Davis & Conan Fowkes. One of the tunes inside, "Good Ole New York" seems to me a concentrated lesson about how to play jazz on a tenor banjo. When this record arrived I immediately extracted the soundtracks to hear it in my car.
The first time I listened to "Good Ole NY" I hazarded a car crash..! The pianist was playing a stunning stride-style while the banjo:
1) At a supersonic speed: no rhythm lacks, no sterile bravure. Only 100% pure jazz.
2) No denotation of any kind of hang-up or cramps (I tried to do it but immediately stopped for arm & hand pain).
3) The musical phrases and patterns are so tasteful and show a super coordination and chicness. THAT'S JAZZ!
4) The first part of the banjo solo sounds like a full orchestra, the second part, while the piano enters, pushes as if some rockets were ignited for taking off. THAT'S SWING!
5) The vocal and the short words that Davis says here and there mark rhythm like a drum (like Fats Waller used to do)
Marco

Texasbanjo - Posted - 11/24/2012:  06:56:38

You might want to check out Pat Cloud's Key to the 5 String Banjo -- he's a master at jazz on the banjo -- and on a 5 string.  He's also got another book out but I can't remember the name of it right now.

Redfoot - Posted - 11/24/2012:  07:37:45

I'll say one thing; picking between tenor & plectrum is damn hard once you give both a try. My tenor spends about 70% in CGDA and 30% in CGBD.

Plectrum is more fun right now because it's easier. The close harmony sounds good for backup vocals even with limited knowledge of the neck. I spend today learning 2 Jobim songs from Youtube, something I cannot yet do with tenor because of all the delicate inside string work that it would involve to sound good with my voice. This is where the tenor pros really excel, listen to Eddy Davis solo - he uses that A string for embellishments and turn arounds etc. but not the chords when he's singing.. it's all on inside strings. And it's a great style, that I hope to play one day. (Not as good as Eddy but you know what I mean!)

I may still go CGBD full time. I'll be forced to make the choice once I save up more for a new instrument..

Anyway good luck starting out, from one beginner to another

minstrelmike - Posted - 11/24/2012:  08:35:24

I played my 5-string in a Dixieland band for 4 years.

I started by loosening the 5th string and dropping it to the side of the bridge then just had a spike installed at the 22nd fret and used it to get the 5th string out of the way.

Whether you get a new banjo with a new tuning or go with the existing one, I think the way to _get_started_ with jazz is to get a jazz fakebook, not a banjo method book, and play your way thru it with a chord chart. If you go to a jazz jam, you will often receive chord charts so it's useful to be able to play the chords to songs. If you get into a regular band, they will probably have sheet music.

Then try different chord placements on a few of the songs, moving the C or D9 chord or whatever various places on the neck and try to get the melody to express itself on the 1st string. Once you've got that working for a few tunes, I think the next thing is to learn to read music and simply play the melody line out of the fakebook. Do that for 3-5 tunes and try to make your own arrangement.

After you've done that preparatory work, then a method book will be useful. It will not only give you new songs, it will also give you new techniques you can use on your current songs. Going right to a method book only gives most people songs without technique because the reader/user is not properly prepared.

And if you want to get started right now on 5-string, here are some Christmas tunes in tab with the melody on 1st string:

moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/speci...tml#banjo

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 11/24/2012:  11:51:58

Which is more common in trad jazz bands, the plectrum or the tenor?

NYCJazz - Posted - 11/24/2012:  18:57:37

quote:

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Originally posted by UncleClawhammer

Which is more common in trad jazz bands, the plectrum or the tenor?

---

Probably tenor, but you shouldn't let that influence your choice much.

Vintage tenors are much more plentiful, so they're a bit cheaper.

I spent many years playing tenor until I finally admitted to myself that I liked the sound of the plectrum better, and switched.



Cynthia Sayer is my guiding light as far as plectrum playing goes. Eddy Davis is an amazing artist on tenor.

Since you're already playing CH, I'd say that you're almost a plectrum player already!

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 11/24/2012:  19:32:32

This is all very interesting. My interest in trad jazz actually comes from my love of Lonnie Donegan, who got his start as the banjo player in Chris Barber's jazz band. Of course, Donegan actually didn't know how to play the banjo when Barber first approached him (somehow Barber had heard he was good, though), but he bought one and bluffed his way through the audition. He eventually got pretty good, I guess. When I saw him playing the banjo, it looked like a five string with the fifth string gone.

My hero as far as tenor banjo is concerned is the late, great Barney McKenna, though of course jazz isn't what he's best known for...

Meles_Meles - Posted - 11/24/2012:  20:03:53

That's all very good advice on selecting a banjo and finding music, but it won't help you understand what's going on in the music. Although you'll have to ignore the guitar chord charts, I can strongly recommend 'Jazz for the Skeptical Guitarist' by Bruce Emery. It's clearly written and easy to follow, and you'll learn how to build and substitute those dauntingly-named jazz chords. Audio is available on-line at skepticalguitarist.com, and in no time you'll be able to work out the scales and chord diagrams for any instrument, not just plectrum and tenor.

(I have no connection to the author)

Redfoot - Posted - 11/25/2012:  06:31:16

I noticed some guitar tutors work well for theory - I bought W. Leavitt's 3 part method for that reason (It was cheap as chips and I like collecting methods/fakebooks) Most everything in it translates to 4 string banjo, It's based on sight reading notation too, not guitar tab.

Edited by - Redfoot on 11/25/2012 06:32:15

Compass56 - Posted - 11/25/2012:  06:41:43

Leavitt was a true pioneer. The Berklee School of Music soared while he was there. According to people I know in Boston, his influence is still felt at the school daily.

His influence on the lap steel world is absolutely huge. His Leavitt tuning is changing the way both players and listeners approach the instrument.

Compass56 - Posted - 11/25/2012:  09:45:04

Hey Uncle C., the best way to play jazz on the banjo (or any instrument) is to simply start playing it. What I just said probably sounds like a Zen riddle to some, but it's true. Just grab whatever instrument you end up buying (tenor, plectrum, Chicago tuning, open G tuning, whatever) and start playing. Learn a couple of chords and go at it. Play them back and forth at various tempos and rhythms that you've heard before and have a good time--That's the most important thing. There's plenty of time in the future to worry about books and videos and methods and teachers. All of that stuff will help you hone in on the sound you are after. Right now, however, the most important thing is to get a reasonably good banjo and start making contact with it. You can refine your knowledge and technique later.

That's My Opinion.

Tony L.

P.S. Welcome to the 4-string side of things. I have a feeling you will enjoy huge success in your jazz banjo journey.

CGDA - Posted - 11/25/2012:  11:47:47

Here's another genuine approach to the jazz on tenor banjo:
youtu.be/5b-C5BkaYqs
Marco

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 11/25/2012:  21:53:43

My previous post inspired me to revisit some of Donegan's numbers that he played the banjo on, and while not jazz and not too fancy, I think he had a great touch on it. Here and here are too examples, the particularly relevant bits coming in from 1:32 to 1:46 and 1:54 to 2:10, respectively.

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 11/27/2012:  23:38:45

After giving it some thought I have decided to try for a plectrum banjo. I'd like to play in both CGBD and Chicago tuning. I think it will be fun to mess around with. I'm thinking about just taking the fifth string off the little banjo now that, for 5 string picking, I mostly use the long neck. Should be good enough to practice on, anyhow. In pictures and videos of banjo players in jazz bands, I always seem to see them  playing barre chords. Now, in DGBE these would be easy enough to figure out, but it'll be a fun challenge to work them out in the C tuning.

Redfoot - Posted - 11/28/2012:  01:09:07

One advantage of DGBE is the wealth of info/arrangements out there, most of it free.. Since that tuning covers a lot of ground - bari ukes, 4 string guitars, banjo variants et cetera. It's also a 'legit' tuning, don't worry about that - some of the pioneers played Chicago tuning.. just pick whatever suits you best. I'd hate to relearn a fretboard if I didn't have to.

Also things like Lyle Ritz's solo's come to mind, he tuned dGBE (re-entrant, like a soprano uke).. Try and Youtube him, he's great.

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/28/2012:  01:58:22

UC ???,

If you can find out my system - here´re chord charts for various 5th, Chicago and plectrum tunings - in fact placed at the same web site:

acoustudio.dk/4-STRING%20TENOR...HORDS.htm

acoustudio.dk/4-STRING%20CHICA...HORDS.htm

acoustudio.dk/4-STRING%20PLECT...HORDS.htm

My system is based on the basic placement of the root in a chord. Do notice, that the root isn´t necessarily present in all chords - but each chord setting is based on the roots placement - whether it´s included in the chord or not.

Especially for a newbie this system should be easy deciphering. Its geniality and simplicity beats all other systems - LOL!

Polle

aroblin - Posted - 11/28/2012:  04:14:20

Thanks for the link, Marco!

Andrew Roblin

andrewroblin.com/

Kevin McCabe - Posted - 12/08/2012:  20:54:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by UncleClawhammer

Which is more common in trad jazz bands, the plectrum or the tenor?

---

Tenor is more traditional for trad jazz. 

I started on tenor and moved to plectrum. No doubt they are distinctly different, and the choice mostly comes down to preference. I would say however if you want to develop a single string jazz style, the tenor would probably get my nod. The tuning of fifths allows you to cover a lot of ground quickly: over two octaves from the c string to the a string using the same hand position. The tuning allows for a linear translation of patterns from one string to the next. The plectrum on the other hand only has an octave and 1/2 between the bottom and top string using the same hand position, and the tuning between the strings is 5th, maj 3, min 3, so their is no translation of patterns from on string to the next.

Plectrum on the other hand would get my nod if you are interested in the chord side of jazz. The tuning allows for chord voicings that are more guitar like. As another poster mentioned, as a tenor player, you spend a lot of time playing chords on three strings, and that can leave out a lot of the cool intervals that make jazz chords nice.

Havin

Kevin McCabe - Posted - 12/08/2012:  21:00:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by Compass56

Hey Uncle C., the best way to play jazz on the banjo (or any instrument) is to simply start playing it...



That's My Opinion.



Tony L.



P.S. Welcome to the 4-string side of things. I have a feeling you will enjoy huge success in your jazz banjo journey.

---

Agreed. Dive in and have fun. I feel however their are two fundamental parts to jazz: preparation and performance. I can only speak to what works for me personally, and that is I need to spend time practicing building blocks, like scales, arpeggios, and melodic lines, but the true jazz performance comes when I'm able to let all that go and use those tools to create on the spot.

minstrelmike - Posted - 12/09/2012:  10:36:43

In the book Improvising Jazz, jerry coker says a band should go around the circle just playing measure-long root notes of the chord at first. do it as an ensemble, then have the rhythm section play and each horn does just the root note.

As far as I'm concerned, I think you're better off starting with just chord progressions and melodies. Learn the chords to 20-50 different songs. They do not have to be jazz. In fact, some should be children's tunes or folk tunes or other familiar, simple stuff that leaves you room to explore.

Play the chords to those songs various places on the neck.

Play the exact melody, both across the open strings and on just the first string.

After you've done that and combined some of the chord progressions into chord-lead melodies with strumming that makes the song erupt out of the banjo, then you are ready to learn some official arrangements by some of the greats such as Buddy Wachter. But starting there I think holds most people back same as if you were trying to write a short story, you get a lot farther if you write instead of simply retype some Raymond Chandler story.

Once you've got some of the hang of writing or playing, seeing what other folks do is an eye-opener.

But if you look at it too soon, you usually just get burned.

minstrelmike - Posted - 12/09/2012:  10:41:46

I do not think in scales, I think in chord sets.

Take all the notes in the 1-4-5 chords of any key and you get the major scale.

Adding the relative minors changes nothing.

Adding other major/minor/7th chords changes the notes allowed in the song (the scale).

The _reason_ I don't push scales is because they are severely limiting for chordal players.

For the simplest example, there is no single scale in which to play Salty Dog (G) or Five Foot Two (C).

The scale theorist will have to learn way more scales and how to think of chords than the person who merely adds the G# note from the E chord) to either song.

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 12/09/2012:  14:41:22

I'm still not entirely sure which one to pick up... I lean more toward's plectrum, still. What are some good traditional jazz bands with banjo players in them to listen to to get a feel for the how the banjos are played?

minstrelmike - Posted - 12/09/2012:  14:48:26

Queen City Jazz Band out of Denver

The Jim Cullum Jazz Band out of Texas has a lot of stuff from various jazz eras.

I listen to their Riverwalk series on the radio: riverwalkjazz.org/

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 12/09/2012:  14:55:40

Thanks, Mike.



I just stumbled across some good jazz on the banjo here (the banjo player's break starts around 2:20) and the rest of the band is good too! I think this is a tenor banjo?

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 12/10/2012:  03:37:07

UC,

This YT vid comes from a recording of a great 1995 concert in Aarhus, Denmark - 15 miles from my place - many of my friends and co-musicians were there - I myself was on tour at that time - but I do have the concert on VHS:

Paul Sealey is playing a Vega Professional tenor.

Polle