Zephinie - Posted - 08/18/2012:  22:11:20

Being still pretty new to the banjo (and really wanting to improve) I really want to be productive with my time as I practice. After all the basic rolls and the chords I have just been learning songs, and more and more songs. After I feel like I have a song nailed I always feel pretty good, but is this all I should be doing? Just memorizing songs? Basics, memorize a song, basics, memorize a song, I feel like I'd be constantly trapped as a 'good beginner' if I keep doing this cycle. What else is there to learn?

JoeDownes - Posted - 08/19/2012:  03:31:40

Good question. I think to break this circle you need some skills of listening to recognize chords and melody notes and some ability to improvise. It might seem a mysterious process, but I think there are some things you can practice that will get you closer.

Try to imprint in your brain the sound of going from G to C (I-IV) and the sound of going from G to D (I-V). Most songs will start on the I chord (G in my example) and most probably the next chord will be either the IV (C) or V (D) chord. If you can distinguish between them you'll be able to learn the chords to songs you're just hearing for the first time.

A good place to start to recognize melodies and melodic fragments is to find the first melody note of a song. If a song starts on a G chord the first strong melody note will very probably be part of the G chord, so it's either G (root), B (third) or D (fifth). The same goes for the other chords, if the harmony changes to C, the strong melody notes are probably C, E or G and for D you'll find many D, A and F# notes. Try to recognize the sound of these three notes played against a chord and you'll be on your way to learning the melody of a new song.

The other aspect is improvising, the ability to play a song you never learned an arrangement for and to play the same song in a different way each time you play it. When I started playing I improvised on Amazing Grace a lot, it's a simple song that sounds nice when played slowly. Try to play the melody notes and the chords and try to incorporate some of the techniques you learned, like roll or slides.

If that doesn't work at first, look for different arrangements of the song and try to understand how the arrangements banjofy the melody and chords. Make your own arrangement of bits and pieces of the arrangements and try to come up with your own way of expressing the song.

Pete Wernicks Jam DVDs are a great tool to practice these skills.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 08/19/2012:  05:34:18

To add to what's just been said above:

Go to jams.  Sit and listen.  See if you can chord or vamp with the music.  Try to hear the chord changes that are being played.  Watch the rhythm guitar picker change chords.  If you don't know guitar chords, get a guitar picker to show you a few basic chords:  G,C,D, A,E and then when the guitar picker changes chords, you change, too.  Eventually, you'll "feel" a chord change coming, even if you're not sure what it is.  Then you'll begin to hear the changes and know what they are.  Takes a while, but it really helps a lot when you're trying to keep up in a jam.  It also helps with your being able to improvise or ad lib breaks.

Instead of getting a tab for every song and memorizing it note for note, try listening to a song and getting the melody in your head and then try to put that melody into your fingers and on your banjo.  Try only the melody first and then work on getting all the "frills".  This also takes practice and lots of trying to figure out melodies, but it will eventually get to the point where you can be in a jam and figure out a break to a song you've never heard before and be able to pick that break when you get a nod to do so.

Old Man - Posted - 08/19/2012:  05:44:16

Learning songs is good but there is more than just learning a tab or just completing one song after another.When you start making music and can hear and feel it then you know what it is all about.That took me a long time.

Tim13 - Posted - 08/19/2012:  06:55:19

quote:

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Originally posted by Zephinie

Being still pretty new to the banjo (and really wanting to improve) I really want to be productive with my time as I practice. After all the basic rolls and the chords I have just been learning songs, and more and more songs. After I feel like I have a song nailed I always feel pretty good, but is this all I should be doing? Just memorizing songs? Basics, memorize a song, basics, memorize a song, I feel like I'd be constantly trapped as a 'good beginner' if I keep doing this cycle. What else is there to learn?

---

You may know the notes, but you don't know how to play the song.  There are so many timing and tone subtleties in every song, that it takes a long time to truly know a song.

What you're doing is exposing yourself to a lot of different licks and techniques though, and that, in my opinion, is a good thing.

Tim

minstrelmike - Posted - 08/19/2012:  08:36:33

First off, what do you mean by learn a song?

Can you sit around the campfire and play it thru with chords while singing and also play a lead once?

That's playing a song.

Newbies waste far too much time memorizing leads and it actually prevents them from learning to _play_

If you really want to play, you need to do start doing two additional things.

One is work your way thru basic songs--just chords and strums/vamps. No "banjo" lead. See if you can just play chords in time to lots and lots of songs (100 is pretty much my magic number which folks tend to reach within 1 month of serious exploration or 6 months of half-hearted jamming). Here are some songs to get started: moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/songs/index.html

The reason you _have_ to do that is because the only way to turn a particular banjo technique, either right- or left-hand into a usable technique for you is for _you_ to apply it to other songs. If you have no other songs except for painfully memorized leads, then you cannot perform that step. page your way thru songbooks and try any song that you may have ever heard whether it is a children's song, a Christmas song or something by Hank Williams, Elvis, The Beatles or Justin Bieber. It's all music and they all have chords.

Two, explore the songs you think you already know. If you don't explore yourself, you don't learn. first off, learn the backup chords. (I used to practice saying the backup chords so I could say them at a jam while I was playing. You have to practice like a square dance caller, saying them ahead of time).

Once you know the chords to the tune, try playing them other places on the neck. counting on 1st string, there are 4 G chords at frets 0,5,9 and 12. There are 4 C chords at frets 2,5,10 and 14. Experiment with them during real songs. That's what improv is. If you want to learn improv, start by doing it on simple stuff.

Jamming and playing music is like talking and having conversations. You didn't learn to speak by memorizing the Gettysburg Address. You didn't learn to converse with others by discussing moral relativism. You started by talking about which was better, ice cream or cookies.

If you want to _play_ music, you need to play around with it. That's why I like starting folks on children's and campfire tunes (try Polly Wolly Doodle) or at least real songs that they can hum and that don't have a strong banjo part they'll feel obligated to copy.

 

Fathand - Posted - 08/19/2012:  17:50:51

Pay attention to Minstrelmike. There is a lot of good advice and ideas in his post. Long and short of it is to be able to play with other people, play backups to other instruments and singers, play intros, leads, endings and do the whole thing with decent timing.  

edley79 - Posted - 08/20/2012:  06:03:10

Great info on this thread. It has been helpful for applying some basic music theory I've been studying.

doug.knecht - Posted - 08/21/2012:  08:59:06

A lot of good info here already.  One thing that breaks that circle also is learning to play the same tune in a different key.  Take Cripple Creek, for instance.  Play the chords starting in the C chord instead of G.  Practice modulating from key to key.  Just one way to spice up the practice routine.  Don't be so worried about having a concrete lead break planned.  But do your rolls over the C chord and throw in whatever lead you can.