M36 - Posted - 08/01/2012:  07:54:25

I have Nylgut strings on the Gatcomb banjo that I have posted about and im working on getting the fingering down. The strings sound ok when I picked them but as soon as I try to fret one of them they sound dull and muted. Am I not picking these hard enough or could it be a head tightening issue? It seems like I have to hit the string really hard to sound half decent.

BTW they are in tune.

Edited by - M36 on 08/01/2012 08:10:13

Frailblazer - Posted - 08/01/2012:  09:38:32

How long have they been on?  I find that Nylguts take a solid week to open up.  They tend to sound muted and dull during the break-in period.  They will continue to improve over the course of a few months.

Check your head tension.  Nylguts don't sound their best when the head is too tight.

- Ric

M36 - Posted - 08/01/2012:  09:59:24

Thank you Ric. They have been for about a week and I have been gradually tightening the head. Maybe I have it to tight but the bridge is causing a slight dimple in the head. I'll keep working with it.

Frailblazer - Posted - 08/01/2012:  11:20:19

Jim - Nylguts like a looser head.  On my banjos setup with Nylgut strings you can definitely see a dip under the bridge.  I find that all of my 12" banjos sound best when the head has a tap tone of F#.  This will be different for an 11" head.  

Here's an approach you can try:  Tune your banjo to Double C and reduce the head tension until the 4th string is at its best (full, with powerful low end).  You may need to add a little foam or other padding to tame unwanted overtones.

Good luck!

- Ric

OK-4 - Posted - 08/01/2012:  11:20:30

What sort of bridge do you have? You might check out a piece by Joel Hooks discussing bridges for nylon string:

archive.banjosessions.com/dec08/Hooks.html

Bufo Bill - Posted - 08/01/2012:  13:37:32

Linked to the Polymer Strings group page. My thanks for the link, that's going on my favourites list.

All the best from Bill. :D

Frailblazer - Posted - 08/01/2012:  13:56:24

My 2 cents...

I checked out the above referenced site and experimented with various bridge types when using Nylgut (not nylon) strings.  I found that the best overall sound was achieved using either a maple bridge with an ebony top or a Randy Stockwell Moon bridge, with the moon bridge being a bit more aggressive on the high end. Anything else (including the types mentioned on that site) resulted in a weak low end and an undesirable upper midrange boost.  On my Romero I customized Jason's stock bridge by removing the  chechen top and replacing it with ebony.  This added a wonderful complexity to the tone and gave more punch to the 4th string.

- Ric

M36 - Posted - 08/01/2012:  14:34:45

Loosening the head made a difference in the sound of the strings. All sound full except the second which still sounds awfull for some reason. I tried the Double C tunIng but for the time being I went back to G tuning. I guess I don't quite understand the rap test. I have to hit the head pretty hard to even register a note in the cheap little tuner I'm using. I wasn't getting anything consistent.

The bridge on this is a small Grover No Tip. There is a picture of it in the Collectors forum. I have a maple ivory tip bridge at home that I will try tonight.

Frailblazer - Posted - 08/01/2012:  15:06:05

Give the head a day to settle and check again. Try loosening it a little more, perhaps 1/8 turn per nut.

You'll never be able to use your tuner to detect the tap tone. Tap the head lightly and try to identify the note by singing or humming it. Then, find out which note you're singing.

The bridge has a huge affect on tone, as I indicated above. You mightalso have a bad string. I've had that happen once with Nylguts. If you have an extra set try replacing the 2nd string. Don't cut off the excess unless it fixes the problem. If not, you can take it off and reuse it.

Ric

M36 - Posted - 08/01/2012:  15:41:33

I bought an extra set, I'll try the other string.

Mike Moss - Posted - 08/02/2012:  02:31:42

I've given up on nylguts a long time ago -- intonation problems, poor sound, too soft and overcooked spaghetti-like. Try some heavy nylons, in my experience their intonation is great all the way up the neck, you get great volume and a good, solid sound. They're also very reliable and stretch less than the nylguts.

deuceswilde - Posted - 08/02/2012:  03:46:37

quote

:

---

Originally posted by M36



Loosening the head made a difference in the sound of the strings. All sound full except the second which still sounds awfull for some reason. I tried the Double C tunIng but for the time being I went back to G tuning. I guess I don't quite understand the rap test. I have to hit the head pretty hard to even register a note in the cheap little tuner I'm using. I wasn't getting anything consistent.



The bridge on this is a small Grover No Tip. There is a picture of it in the Collectors forum. I have a maple ivory tip bridge at home that I will try tonight.

---

We typically don't attempt any of that head tuning phenomenon.  That seems to be a Bluegrass school regulation thing.  

Check the nut and bridge slots.  A lot rides on your right hand.  Play near the bridge and not over the neck.

Much of what the modern "old time" folks do is to tame the shrillness of wire.  Check out the articles the Swaim Stewart wrote from my website.  

banjothimble.com

Also check out the classic-banjo.ning site.  The folks there really know how to make soft strings pop.

Frailblazer - Posted - 08/02/2012:  05:52:31

We typically don't attempt any of that head tuning phenomenon.  That seems to be a Bluegrass school regulation thing.  

---

Not sure who "We" is referencing, but "I" absolutely do use this technique because I've have found that tuning the head allows me to get a consistent, wonderful tone from all my banjos.

- Ric

deuceswilde - Posted - 08/02/2012:  06:23:35

I include myself in a small fringe group of folks who study the techniques and music of the era that 19th century banjos were designed for.

I also use calfskin heads, tuning would only be momentary.

Edited by - deuceswilde on 08/02/2012 06:24:26

Frailblazer - Posted - 08/02/2012:  06:31:03

Thanks for the clarification and I agree that tap tuning a hide head is difficult.

- Ric

M36 - Posted - 08/02/2012:  11:55:16

I have a hide head of some kind. I tried two bridges but came back to the Grover that is on there now. I didn't start moving the bridge away from the tail piece and that has helped a little.

Got a suggestion for the nylon string?

Still workIng with it though.

M36 - Posted - 08/02/2012:  11:55:17

I guess Nylguts are not for every banjo out there?

BTW when I got this it had some pretty nasty steel strings on it but the head was fairly loose.

Edited by - M36 on 08/02/2012 12:59:41

RG - Posted - 08/02/2012:  12:23:39

Chris Sands nylon strings are far superior and much more versatile (in my opinion) than Nylguts, which, like Mr. Moss above, I have given up on a looong time ago...

Here is a super quick sound file of a formica fingerboard fretless banjo I built which was strung with Chris' heavy gauge nylon strings, tuned to G..."Down the Road" in thumb lead...

I believe that the bridge affects tone more than anything else you can do to a banjo...but if you don't want to use wire strings, I think Chris' strings are the only way to go...

Edited by - RG on 08/02/2012 12:26:28

Superbo Formica Fretless

Down the Road

Mike Moss - Posted - 08/03/2012:  06:09:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by RG

Chris Sands nylon strings are far superior and much more versatile (in my opinion) than Nylguts, which, like Mr. Moss above, I have given up on a looong time ago...

Here is a super quick sound file of a formica fingerboard fretless banjo I built which was strung with Chris' heavy gauge nylon strings, tuned to G..."Down the Road" in thumb lead...

I believe that the bridge affects tone more than anything else you can do to a banjo...but if you don't want to use wire strings, I think Chris' strings are the only way to go...

 

 

 

---

Hear hear. Also, for people living in the UK, you can get Clifford Essex nylon strings (heavy gauge -- always heavy) which are excellent ground nylon, very stiff, and with a slightly heavier bass than the Sands.

Frailblazer - Posted - 08/03/2012:  06:15:35

I've tried Chris Sands strings and to my ears Nylguts are far superior. This is obviously a very subjective thing. Anyone wishing to try non steel strings should keep an open mind, try different brands and be sure to give the strings enough time to settle in. It's great that we have lots of choices!

Ric

trapdoor2 - Posted - 08/03/2012:  13:44:40

Yes, subjective. I prefer Nylgut...and most of my vintage banjos wear Joel Hooks bridges. My CE Special and my Flesher both prefer "Cole" type bridges (available from Elderly). I do not like ebony topped bridges for nylon or nylgut...but prefer them for steels. Again, subjective.

There is a big difference in how the banjo is being played though. Fingerstyle (bare fingers) takes a different set-up than clawhammer...different strings, different bridges, etc. Scale length changes things, head mass, tension, etc.; they all interact.

I prefer the feel of Chris Sands heavies...but the tone is not there for me. The nylguts are just a bit softer (in feel) and tonally broader, less brash. I don't play close to the bridge, preferring to play near the neck/pot joint.

Ya just gotta experiment with a variety of things. Whatever keeps you pickin...do dat!

RG - Posted - 08/03/2012:  19:53:08

originally posted by trapdoor2 (quote in blue)

Fingerstyle (bare fingers) takes a different set-up than clawhammer...different strings, different bridges, etc.

Have to respectfully disagree with you there Marc, I set up my banjos with the best "voice" and then play CH, 2 finger, 3 finger....whatever (with or without picks).  That little fretless sounded "plunky" enough (even though that's not the sound I like) when I played it downstroke style with those Sands strings.  I could understand your statement if you're looking for that Scruggs "pop" or you're playing a low-tuned minstrel banjo, but for OT playing I don't think that a properly set-up banjo is that restrictive.  When I play, I vary the tone by using the easiest change you can make to a banjos sound...your right (or left if you're a wrong hander) hand...

Edited by - RG on 08/03/2012 20:03:00

deuceswilde - Posted - 08/04/2012:  06:15:07

I prefer the Ossman pop.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 08/04/2012:  17:17:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by RG

originally posted by trapdoor2 (quote in blue)

Fingerstyle (bare fingers) takes a different set-up than clawhammer...different strings, different bridges, etc.

 Have to respectfully disagree with you there Marc, I set up my banjos with the best "voice" and then play CH, 2 finger, 3 finger....whatever (with or without picks).  That little fretless sounded "plunky" enough (even though that's not the sound I like) when I played it downstroke style with those Sands strings.  I could understand your statement if you're looking for that Scruggs "pop" or you're playing a low-tuned minstrel banjo, but for OT playing I don't think that a properly set-up banjo is that restrictive.  When I play, I vary the tone by using the easiest change you can make to a banjos sound...your right (or left if you're a wrong hander) hand... 

---

LOL. Well, I did say it was all subjective. Your needs/abilities are your own.

I simply take a different tack, I set up banjos specifically to optimize them for the playability I want in the style I want and let my R/H make the instrument speak. I can (and do sometimes) play clawhammer on my Stelling, for instance, but it is not optimal for my style of clawhammer play. Same goes for the various other banjos I own, they each get a different setup depending on what style of play they are intended for. Even instruments within a specific style sometimes beg a different setup.

This is part of why I own so many different banjos (well...a small part). I'm far more sensitive to the feel of an instrument, how my hands interact with it, than the sound/tone it produces. I so strongly attach styles (and tunes) to specific instruments that sometimes I cannot play some tunes at all on the "wrong" instrument (well, not without a minute or two of struggle).

I played for years on 'compromise' instruments (meaning instruments designed for fingerstyle but being played clawhammer) and did well. I'm an engineer...so I always have a "better mousetrap" design or idea for optimization in the back of my mind. When I got a chance to go for a "no compromise" instrument (for playing in a specific style), I went for it...and I'm still at it. After all these years, I know what I like and what works for me (a fact that amazes me to some extent). It's all good...and I don't think we're all that far apart, we know what we like!

japus - Posted - 08/09/2012:  18:25:56

For those using nylgut strings.

Bart Veerman will make bridges to order, using your string diameter measurements to make slots.

Worked great for me

banjoes - Posted - 08/10/2012:  06:13:20

Hi M36,

If the open strings sound Ok I wonder if you've tried noting with the nail of your left hand? I find turning my hand slightly so a fingernail presses down on the string - especially the first and second - gives a much more articulated sound.  I too get on alright with Nylguts.

All best

Edited by - banjoes on 08/10/2012 06:14:26

Frailblazer - Posted - 08/10/2012:  06:17:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoes

Hi M36,

If the open strings sound Ok I wonder if you've tried noting with the nail of your left hand? I find turning my hand slightly so a fingernail presses down on the string - especially the first and second - gives a much more articulated sound.  I too get on alright with Nylguts.

All best

---

Hi Greg,

I keep my nails on my left hand pretty short so as not to get in the way and inhibit my playing. That said, I can see how your technique would work as you describe it.  

Thanks,

- Ric

M36 - Posted - 08/10/2012:  06:28:13

I have been working with this for awhile now and found that the Nylgut strings have settled in I guess. Trying several different bridges I settled on a bridge that seems to bring out the intonation that I think it should have. It is just the normal cheap  ebony topped bridge, and is set at 26 1/4 from the nut. The bridge this came with was fine for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th strings but there seemed like no harmonics on the 1st or 5th string. They just seemed dead. The new bridge has taken care of that. 

The only other thing I seem to be dealing with now is volume. This bridge seems like the volume has dropped considerably. The strings also seem real flimsy and I feel like thy have to be hit real hard to produce volume. 

Im waiting for the Sands strings to get here and I ll try those after I throw the towel in on the Nylguts. But, I know the answer is out there somewhere on these strings. I may look at the Veerman bridge and also seem to remember that one article I read mentioned not using an ebony topped bridge. 

And since I can still edit this post, I do keep the nails short.

Edited by - M36 on 08/10/2012 06:29:30

DEmery - Posted - 08/10/2012:  06:53:31

Volume and nylgut can be interesting. M36 it may be something outside your interest; but I have found old growth spruce with ebony caps has provided a significant increase in volume and tone on nylon or gut in particular with wood rim banjos. Jason Romero is building me another banjo and in our conversation he commented on this interest and success with old growth Doug Fir. Tim Purcell builds my bridges these days and they are excellent. Tim is truly expert on wood impact in bridges and has old piano brace spruce that produces strong results. It may not be the particular synthetic string you are trying but the bridge. Just a thought. David E.

Purcell Bridge

mimmo2us - Posted - 08/13/2012:  11:49:29

mimmo2us - Posted - 08/13/2012:  11:52:37

Hello to everyone,
I would like to inform that the 5 strings banjo sets has now the new Red Series un wound 4 th. This is a great improvement. The red series are now in use on ukuleles low G tuning with the 4th red series un wound.
Thank you for your time
Bye
Mimmo aquilastrings italy

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 08/13/2012:  13:09:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by mimmo2us

Hello to everyone,

I would like to inform that the 5 strings banjo sets has now the new Red Series un wound 4 th. This is a great improvement. The red series are now in use on ukuleles low G tuning with the 4th red series un wound.

Thank you for your time

Bye

Mimmo aquilastrings italy

---

This is good to know. The wound 4th strings were definitely the weak link in the Nylgut sets.

Frailblazer - Posted - 08/13/2012:  14:07:39

I've tried the "All Nylgut" sets and found the unwound 4th to be a bit dead sounding.  I'm cautiously curios...

- Ric

mimmo2us - Posted - 08/14/2012:  02:52:00

Yes, in the all nylgut set the 4th is quite thick and so dull. Using a Red Series string instead, the gauge is thinner, the strings is denser ( thanks to the metal red copper powder addded in the melted Nylgut) and the perfomances go up a lot. I mean not like a wound strings ( it make not sense to imitate a wound string) but surely much more bright than a plain Nylgut.
You can hear some examples here:
youtube.com/watch?v=73ZzZ_lGox...re=relmfu

in youtube there are some more relate examples
Ciao
Mimmo

dbrooks - Posted - 08/14/2012:  03:23:48

Mimmo, does the new Red Series 4th string have any texture to it?  I recall testing several all-Nylgut 4th strings for you several years when you decided to provide an alternative to the wound 4th string.  And I still have one of those strings on my banjo at work. Yes they were a bit duller and lacked the growl of the wound 4th, but I also like the bite my finger and thumb get from the windings.  I find the unwound 4th to be rather slick.  Obviously, the unwound 4th string lasts a long time.

David

deuceswilde - Posted - 08/14/2012:  04:07:42

I hate to say this, but his wound fourths are the only strings I use from him.  I like them. 

strumn1 - Posted - 08/14/2012:  05:57:04

I, too, hope the wound fourth is still an option.  I have not tried an unwound fourth, but have not had any issues with this string.

Frailblazer - Posted - 08/14/2012:  06:38:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by strumn1

I, too, hope the wound fourth is still an option.  I have not tried an unwound fourth, but have not had any issues with this string.

---

Agree!

- Ric

mimmo2us - Posted - 08/14/2012:  07:23:13

Hi guys,
Do not worry, the set with the 4th wound is always available in the market. I just changed the All Nylgut's set introducing the 4th Red Series instead the usual plain white nylgut. The total balance is much more better. The texture of the red series is just a bit raf due to the copper powder but it is nice. I mean that no one of the ukulele players complained for that since now.
Mimmo

Frailblazer - Posted - 08/14/2012:  07:56:27

Mimmo,

I'm looking forward to trying the new set and it's great to know that the original one will still be available.

Thanks,

- Ric

banjoes - Posted - 08/15/2012:  02:35:12

Regarding my previous post about noting with nails - please disregard. I wrongly assumed the banjo was fret-less!

Best

Frailblazer - Posted - 08/20/2012:  11:17:15

I have tried the new Nylgut Red series 4th strings.  You can find a review here: banjohangout.org/reviews/searc...edir=true

- Ric

trapdoor2 - Posted - 08/20/2012:  14:10:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frailblazer

I have tried the new Nylgut Red series 4th strings.  You can find a review here: banjohangout.org/reviews/searc...edir=true

- Ric

---

 Sounds good. I wonder when they'll be available in the US?

I swapped out a completely worn-thru wound 4th last night for the big 1.06 solid nylgut. I've used the big dia solid a few times in the past but it just never felt right. I was stuck last night so I went with what I had. I'd like to try out the new "red" series. 

M36 - Posted - 08/21/2012:  07:24:32

For what its worth, I stuck with the Nylguts and I cant really blame the strings since others are using them, but Ill blame it on my lack of technique and ability to play claw hammer yet. The two things I noticed were lack of volume. This really irritated me when I was trying to play and could hardly hear the strings. I was always asking my wife if it was loud or if she could hear it, which she could. My being above the head and not in front of it Im sure was the reason why I wasnt getting the effect I thought I would. Again, more likely my lack of ability here. The other thing was the strings seemed real loose and flimsy. 

At the recommendation I switched the the Chris Sands heavy strings and from my beginning perspective, I do like these a lot better. They seem to have more of the volume that I was looking for and seem tighter which I like better than the loose "spaghetti" like feel that someone else wrote before.

I want to stick with the nylon strings and until I find something else, Ill stick with the Chris Sands strings.

But I do realize that everyone's mileage may vary with strings. 

Frailblazer - Posted - 08/21/2012:  07:39:08

Glad to hear the Chris Sands strings are working out for you. 

- Ric

chadp - Posted - 08/21/2012:  18:35:44

I emailed Mimmo today. He's sending me two reds. I'm real excited to try them.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 08/21/2012:  19:14:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by chadp

I emailed Mimmo today. He's sending me two reds. I'm real excited to try them.

---

 Poop. Bad time for my home PC to be down. I'll have to order a couple from him when I get my system back up and running.

tunemakers - Posted - 08/24/2012:  12:10:36

Where do you order the Red fourth strings......I would really like to try them. I love the Nylgut Strings on my Vega. They produce warm full fundamental tone with very little overtones. I can use a regular frosted head with no stuffing in the banjo, a cheap bridge and I'm really pleased with the sound I get. The strings, other than the fragile wound fourth, last forever and once they settle in, they stay in tune very nicely. If I could find a more durable and equally good sounding fourth string I would be a happy banjo player.....

mimmo2us - Posted - 08/26/2012:  06:22:49

well,
we at aquilastrings are going to convert the standard 5 strings banjo set all nylgut with the 4th red series type. This set will be always called All Nylgut but with this change.
To be available in stores need some months. It is not a fast thing to supply all the distributors and then the local stores and on line shops. Please be patient a bit.
you guys will be happy
Mille Grazie
Mimmo