uncle.fogey - Posted - 07/01/2012:  15:51:16

In order to shape necks, I use a variety of rasps, files and sanding spindles, not to mention a 12 “ disc sander, which is a real workhorse.

As for the rasps, there is the good old Stanley ”suform” the fastest of the bunch, several handmade Italian sculptor’s rasps, 2  shoe rasps, a half-round file, a body file, and a regular woodworkers’ rasp - the sanding spindles are self explanatory, and they work on a drill press or hand drill





As for rasps, I use a number of different kind, for one thing, changing from one to the other makes you think you are being really methodical, and it breaks up the boredom.

Another think, is that each rasp sets up a pattern, and you start tom get grooves.  Switching to another one “cuts through that” ha ha.

and then, of course, there are coarse ones and fine ones.



I make templates for the neck profiles, and I have a number of these of different kinds.  having templates is very important.  Below, you can see a sample neck section I made for a customer so they could feel the profile with their hand. Sometimes, it’s a good idea to do that - I used it as a stain sample as well:



I’m doing this with a broken finger, which gets painful if I touch it against something. I will always remember these necks as the “broken finger necks” - better that than a broken neck!



As a support for the rasping, I use a 2” piece of black locust, which is very stiff, clamped between my workbench and run-off table. I clamp the neck to that, and I can get at it from any angle to rasp it down:





While the necks are still square, I drill the 5th peg holes:



Then I mark the taper for the heel, and sand that down with the disc sander - gets rid of a lot of material and saves time:







Then I start rasping it down, and checking the profile with the templates - this doesn’t take very long:





I keep at that until they are roughly shaped, then go on to the spindle sanders:





Then I sand it down by hand and with an orbital sander:





You have to check the straightness of the form with a straightedge and MAKE SURE it is straight - you don't want to see light between the straightedge and the neck- It’s hard to see with the raw wood, but once you put a finish on it, ripples will stand out like a sore thumb - the highlights have to be straight. Of course, if you’re doing a matte tung oil finish, ripples won’t be that apparent, but I'm doing lacquer.

The bottom picture is another neck so you can see what I mean by the highlights - you don't want them to be wavy:





I can see that the peghead to neck purfling alignment is pretty good (of course, there would not be a darned thing I could do if it wasn't other than a little paint and a 000 brush), and I touch up the quatrefoil with a sandpaper spindle. There is a pitch pocket on one of the peghead ears - that happens with cherry - it’s nothing to be concerned about:







Now I have the necks pretty well shaped - the 2 of these took about 3 - 3 1/2 hours to do.

I have to let them sit, because the next thing will be cutting the heels, installing the dowels and aligning the necks, for which I have to have the pots assembled with the heads on.  I will do that shortly.

tkelsey - Posted - 07/01/2012:  16:44:47

As with your prior posts in your 'Building a Banjo' series, I find this very, very helpful. Thanks so much for sharing!

I'm curious about how you sand the curved part where the neck transitions into the heel -- this part of the banjo has caused me the most trouble with the few banjos I've built. I've found it awkward to sand into this curve, and I've sometimes had a bit of tear out from the rasps in the end grain. Is this where you rely upon the spindles?

jay_m - Posted - 07/01/2012:  16:48:59

question: what would you say is the most common mistake you make when building, even after all these years?

uncle.fogey - Posted - 07/01/2012:  17:30:38

quote:

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Originally posted by tkelsey

As with your prior posts in your 'Building a Banjo' series, I find this very, very helpful. Thanks so much for sharing!



I'm curious about how you sand the curved part where the neck transitions into the heel -- this part of the banjo has caused me the most trouble with the few banjos I've built. I've found it awkward to sand into this curve, and I've sometimes had a bit of tear out from the rasps in the end grain. Is this where you rely upon the spindles?

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I use spindles and a half-round file, then sandpaper. It's the hardest part to get smooth on the end grain, and the shape, when finished, makes a lot of highlights that magnify mistakes.  I have long believed that one reason for heel-carving was to enhance that difficult-to-get-right part of the neck with a flamboyant detail that didn't need to be sanded smooth.

The Vega sunburst finishes from the 60s were also strategically dark at the heel and parts of the peghead that are difficult to sand.

tkelsey - Posted - 07/01/2012:  17:55:27

I'm glad to hear that I'm not unique in finding this part of the neck difficult to deal with. I've lately wondered if a Dobson style heel would be easier to make because the curve would be much easier to sand... but I don't like their look as much.

uncle.fogey - Posted - 07/01/2012:  17:59:32

quote:

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Originally posted by jay_m

question: what would you say is the most common mistake you make when building, even after all these years?

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Every time I screw something up, I try to develop a system or jig or something to not have that happen again, so there is no "common" mistake, only new stuff I don't see coming. Getting the neck aligned and angled properly with dowel sticks is problematic, and I have messed that up a few times. On earlier banjos I made, before carbon fiber and good truss rods, I had a few necks twist, I have had troubles a few times with a good tight joint at the bottom of fingerboard binding.  I have had some finishing problems with curly maple, and had to strip it and do it over, once 3 times.  I put the spikes in backwards one time. I have put inlays on the wrong fret spaces a couple of times, and have gotten inlays misaligned.

When I was just starting, I made the typical youthful design mistakes, like too short a scale, too thin and narrow a neck, not understanding how the peghead veneer was going to line up with the fingerboard trim. I once (long ago) converted a 10 inch pot with a normal 26 3/8" scale neck, and the bridge was too far back.

So far, on these banjos I'm developing, and showing on these threads, getting the holes right in the resonator flange has been the toughest thing, but that's a new detail I'm figuring out. I had a bad piece of abalone and had to re-do an inlay on one of the necks, and I had to re do a few pieces of binding because I'm learning how to use Corian.

Most of my mistakes are made while developing new ideas and going through the learning curve

Fathand - Posted - 07/01/2012:  19:55:00

Is there a reason you do not use a spokeshave in carving your necks?

uncle.fogey - Posted - 07/02/2012:  05:29:47

quote:

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Originally posted by Fathand

Is there a reason you do not use a spokeshave in carving your necks?

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I've never used spokeshaves, other than a very small one, so I have no real history with them.  I just like the rasps. I prefer sanding to planing, too (for banjos), it's just what I'm used to.

dickinnorwich - Posted - 07/02/2012:  05:57:27

At the risk of being "redumbnant" as Jake Harper (2 1/2 Men) might say, one of Ken's techniques I want to emphasize is the fact that he does the shaping of the neck only after his inlay, binding and frets are installed. When I was first starting out and didn't know any better, I thought that the first thing I should do on the neck was shape it. Later, as I got older and wiser, I learned that keeping the neck square, as Ken does,  for as long as possible, pays enormous convenience dividends. And yet to many folks, this still seems counter-intuitive.  I have recently had this same discussion with a good friend and builder on the BHO with whom I regularly communicate. His view is that he doesn't want to invest all the time, money and energy to complete the fingerboard if there is the possibility of a hidden flaw in the neck wood. While Ken and I are are in lock-step on the sequencing of carving the neck, I can now appreciate the alternative view having recently built a neck where serious flaws in the neck wood (worm holes) were only revealed at the very last stages after all the work had been done on the fingerboard. 

and Rick, FWIW, I use a spokeshave. I also use a gouge and a mallet to do the initial shaping of the heel. Everybody has different techniques and tools they're comfortable using. Whatever works for you.

Edited by - dickinnorwich on 07/02/2012 06:01:48

Randall - Posted - 07/02/2012:  08:36:04

Ok so I been found out!! I shape my necks 85% or so complete before I glue in a truss rod, an overlay or a fingerboard. I use a router with a round-under bit to do the radius. There is more than one way to build a neck. It's whatever works for you!!

Dick was right. I use to do everything to a neck but shape it. Then I shaped it last. Too much can go wrong! You have inlays, binding and frets and all your time in a neck that may have a flaw in the wood you can't see til you get there!

Jonnycake White - Posted - 07/02/2012:  08:44:34

Unless they compromise the integrity of the wood, worm holes are no more flaws than a large nose or stick-out ears or Cindy Crawford's mole.  They are character.

YMMV

dickinnorwich - Posted - 07/02/2012:  10:43:47

Jon:

These worm holes were so big.....(How big were they, Dick?),  I lost a grandchild in them.  Seriously, these flaws went way beyond character. I ended up doing what Randall hates to do; I removed the fingerboard, truss rod and peghead and started over again. Note that while Randall and I have different approaches to the neck carving sequencing, after that experience last winter, I have a deeper appreciation and respect for his approach. To him, the convenience of working with a squared neck section isn't worth the risk of a serious wood flaw later in the process. To me, the convenience still is worth the risk.  I've probably made at least 50 necks and can only remember 2 that were flawed. So that's a 4% average risk, overall. But I can see his point. If the wood isn't what you want or expected, why go on?

Edited by - dickinnorwich on 07/02/2012 10:54:50