uncle.fogey - Posted - 06/30/2012:  11:12:54

Now that the peg head veneers are glued on the neck blank and shaped, I have to get the fingerboard ready to glue on.

There are a couple of things that are easier to do before the fingerboard is glued to the neck, like the 5th string pip and the spikes.



FIRST, I have to glue the fingerboard onto the cross-banded substrate to make it perfectly flat and stable. This locks the frets in, too - I use a black locust caul





You can see how it starts out curved, and ends up straight once it is glued straight, it will stay straight:





Now for the pip - I make these either from Corian® or bone, although they could be MOP, whatever you want.

I cut the slots low, so the 5th string passes over the 5th fret, making that a “zero fret” for the 5th string. This eliminates intonation problems.

On these pictures, I am shaping it from Corian®, and comparing the diameter to the drill I’ll use to drill the fingerboard.

The picture on the bottom in the vise is bone. I cut the slot either with a scroll saw, or a thin kerf Japanese dovetail saw:



On the next picture, I drill the hole right behind the fret, so close I usually cut the fret a little:





If I played open a lot (which I don’t), I might consider using a “5th string jack” to raise the part of the 5th fret where the string crosses, up a little. I make these from nickel silver fret material:



Now, I install the spikes, which I will put on the 7th and 10th frets.  I space them 3/8” back from the fret and 5/32” in from the outer edge of the binding.  I have a special tapered drill for this I made out of a ground-down hardened hardwood trim nail.



Then I spread out all the spikes on a sheet of paper and pick the ones with the longest ends. I put a drop of CA onto the paper, dip the ends of the spikes into that and tap them into the holes with a brass deadblow hammer.

I use a .011  feeler gauge to stop them from going down too far. I don’t want the tops of them to stick up higher than the frets:





NOW, I can dry fit the fingerboard onto the neck blank and determine the nut space:



I am going to use my own “Inserta-Nut”™design for this with a nickel silver insert. The idea is that I am not a believer in “nut exceptionalism” , and I want the nut to be “just another fret” - same height, same material. The Corian part that holds the nickel silver nut in place is merely a spacer, and the strings don’t ride in slots as they cross the nickel silver nut:







Of course, I could easily replace this with a conventional nut if I wanted to.



FINALLY, I can glue the fingerboard onto the neck blank - I DO NOT have the pips in place when I do this.

I install the truss rod, coat the surfaces with Titebond 1, being careful not to get much glue in the truss rod slot - most of the glue is on the fingerboard.

I sprinkle a little kosher salt on the ends, which stops the parts from sliding around when I clamp them down.



I clamp it VERY firmly onto my cast iron table saw table, using beech cauls, and make DARNED SURE, it doesn't slide around. I want this to be perfectly aligned and DEAD flat when I unclamp it, which it is - I leave them clamped down for 8 hours:

I normally don't have to do any more than a cleaning up to dress the frets, they won't need to be leveled.



The next step will be the actual shaping of the necks.



 

Waltj - Posted - 06/30/2012:  11:47:35

Thank you sir

Walt

GMB - Posted - 06/30/2012:  12:38:08

Wow!!!  Incredible attention to detail!  Cheers, Jerry

jay_m - Posted - 06/30/2012:  16:21:50

if you dont mind me backing up a step or 20. . . i am constantly surprised that you prefer not to start with a square blank. all of your processes are so elegant, and have been planned so thoughtfully around the way you do it. which clearly works as well as anything. but why, in your opinion, would it not be better to start square?

uncle.fogey - Posted - 06/30/2012:  16:59:48

Jay,

I'm not sure I understand the question. I DO start with a square blank, at least a square board. Do you mean "why don't I make a single piece neck"?

Ken

jay_m - Posted - 06/30/2012:  19:54:55

not talking about single piece -- i suppose it mostly depends on what you start with. whether i make a one or two piece neck i always have a blank that looks like this (except the fingerboard isnt usually so thin)

this way everything will be square when im cutting, shaping the headstock, drilling the dowel hole, etc. but now that i think about it, i suppose its not drastically different than how you do it.

i was just curious.

Edited by - jay_m on 06/30/2012 19:55:24

MOUNTAIN GOAT - Posted - 06/30/2012:  22:14:46

Why don't you just use a piece of brass to make the nut? Seems that would accomplish the same thing easier and better. Am I missing something?

uncle.fogey - Posted - 07/01/2012:  04:41:44

quote:

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Originally posted by MOUNTAIN GOAT

Why don't you just use a piece of brass to make the nut? Seems that would accomplish the same thing easier and better. Am I missing something?

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It would not be easier, and would be essentially the same as any kind of nut, same problems, etc.  I think you are probably missing something in terms of how a zero fret works, and besides, nickel silver IS brass, the same alloy that frets are made from.

uncle.fogey - Posted - 07/01/2012:  04:56:03

quote:

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Originally posted by jay_m

not talking about single piece -- i suppose it mostly depends on what you start with. whether i make a one or two piece neck i always have a blank that looks like this (except the fingerboard isnt usually so thin)

this way everything will be square when im cutting, shaping the headstock, drilling the dowel hole, etc. but now that i think about it, i suppose its not drastically different than how you do it.

i was just curious.

 

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Thanks, Jay,

Now I see what you are talking about - that's an interesting way to do it. 

That would be a little too cumbersome for me, and,would be wasteful of the veneers I use for the laminations, not to mention the wood of the neck itself. As it is, I can make a one-piece neck neck from a piece of wood that is 2" x 3" x 28", and a laminated one from a piece that's 1" x 6" x 28".

Once the pieces are cut out, I only have to laminate and cross band the parts that will actually be the neck:

It does remain "square" in terms of being easy to work with, and I don't add peghead ears until near the end of the process.

Today, I will drill the hole for the 5th string peg, and then shape it.

Ken

jay_m - Posted - 07/01/2012:  05:49:19

yeah, it seems like you produce little to no waste using your method.

MOUNTAIN GOAT - Posted - 07/01/2012:  11:10:10

Why would a zero fret nut work different than a brass or nickel silver nut?

uncle.fogey - Posted - 07/01/2012:  12:21:01

quote:

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Originally posted by MOUNTAIN GOAT

Why would a zero fret nut work different than a brass or nickel silver nut?

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Because despite the material - bone, MOP, ebony, plastic, etc, a "nut" is a transition between the tuning pegs and the playing part of the string, where the strings fit into grooves that have (hopefully) been cut at the right width, depth, and angle, and the bearing surface where the string "breaks",is (hopefully)  is at the beginning edge of the fingerboard.  All too often the hopefulness is just that, they are NOT made properly, the strings bind in the grooves or the action is higher at the nut than other frets (or lower and has to be shimmed) or the slots aren't cut right so the string break is back from the edge causing intonation problems, or ALL of the above, AND the nut being made from a different material than the frets makes the 4 open notes on the banjo sound a little or a lot different than the other 84 fretted ones.

A "zero fret" is a fret that the strings pass over, that is one fret back from the 1st fret - hence, the name "zero" fret. There is a nut-like part behind the zero fret with grooves that guide and space the strings at the right position. These grooves are wider and deeper than the grooves would be on a regular "nut" - and they don't bind or affect intonation - they just position the strings on the zero fret. There are no grooves on the zero fret - the strings just contact it at the crown, like any fret. Typically, the zero fret is the same height as and made from the same material as the other frets, so there is no difference in action or sound between the open notes and fretted ones - it is as if you had a capo on the strings.

Many guitars have zero frets, and the famous jazz player Django Rinehart notably had one on his guitar because he didn't like the difference in sound of "nut" notes and fretted ones.  Neither do I.

MOUNTAIN GOAT - Posted - 07/01/2012:  13:28:20

Thanks for the excellent description. I do think you could accomplish all you described though with a metal nut. May need to use a square section needle file to do it. Maybe it would be more work, not sure. Thanks though. Now I get it.

uncle.fogey - Posted - 07/01/2012:  13:52:36

Mountain Goat - Go ahead and make a brass nut - 2 or 3 of them.

You can lead a horse (or a goat, I guess) to water, but you can't make 'em drink.

I tried my best.

Jonnycake White - Posted - 07/01/2012:  16:48:00

I think it comes down to two things: similar materials between the nut (or zero fret) and the frets; and ease of making a precise nut.  With the zero fret or "Insert-a-nut" you don't have to worry about how deep the string-guide slots should be, as long as they are deep enough that the strings bear on the top of the zero fret and not in the nut slots themselves.  This is one of the persnickity details of the banjo that I fear the most, and I frequently cut the slots in a nut (non-zero-fret variety) too deep and have to fill them with dust and CA, or else throw the nut away and start over.  I think I'll try the insert-a-nut concept on my next banjo.  My only question is, how do you level the frets (assuming that is necessary).  Do you make a temporary spacer to put behind the nut/fret insert in place of the string spacer?

uncle.fogey - Posted - 07/01/2012:  17:19:42

quote:

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Originally posted by Jonnycake White

I think it comes down to two things: similar materials between the nut (or zero fret) and the frets; and ease of making a precise nut.  With the zero fret or "Insert-a-nut" you don't have to worry about how deep the string-guide slots should be, as long as they are deep enough that the strings bear on the top of the zero fret and not in the nut slots themselves.  This is one of the persnickity details of the banjo that I fear the most, and I frequently cut the slots in a nut (non-zero-fret variety) too deep and have to fill them with dust and CA, or else throw the nut away and start over.  I think I'll try the insert-a-nut concept on my next banjo.  My only question is, how do you level the frets (assuming that is necessary).  Do you make a temporary spacer to put behind the nut/fret insert in place of the string spacer?

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That's a good question. I've never had to do that with any of mine yet, so I hadn't thought about it. I'd  put the insert in a little vise and dress it down with the same fret file I dressed all the other frets with. You can easily check if it's the correct height with a straightedge, as I did in one of the previous pictures.

liam_fnq - Posted - 07/01/2012:  22:58:57

Very interesting "inserta-nut" there Ken. One thought strikes me though. The nut is rounded over just like a fret, meaning the termination point for the vibrating string length is maybe 1mm back from the end of the fingerboard. Is this correct? Does this intonate correctly? Is the end of the fingerboard trimmed to allow for this?

Harreec - Posted - 07/19/2012:  04:18:22

FINALLY, I can glue the fingerboard onto the neck blank - I DO NOT have the pips in place when I do this.
I clamp it VERY firmly onto my cast iron table saw table, using beech cauls, and make DARNED SURE, it doesn't slide around. I want this to be perfectly aligned and DEAD flat when I unclamp it, which it is - I leave them clamped down for 8 hours:


If you are gluing up a radiused fingerboard to the neck blank do you put some kind of a material between the saw table and the fingerboard to conform to the radius?

uncle.fogey - Posted - 07/19/2012:  12:28:03

quote:

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Originally posted by liam_fnq

Very interesting "inserta-nut" there Ken. One thought strikes me though. The nut is rounded over just like a fret, meaning the termination point for the vibrating string length is maybe 1mm back from the end of the fingerboard. Is this correct? Does this intonate correctly? Is the end of the fingerboard trimmed to allow for this?

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Liam,

You are correct, the fingerboard needs to be trimmed by about .025. Since I make these as part of the original construction, that's no big deal. I just make the 1st fret space .025" shorter.

The frets I use are .085" wide, so the backset OUGHT to be .042, or half the fret width, but I file the tops of my inserts (the inserts can be nickel silver, stainless steel, bone, MOP, abalone - anything) at a skew, so that the crown is about .025 in from the edge, not in the middle:

You can see it in this photo:

If you want to replace it with a conventional nut, you just put a .025" shim in front of the nut" as shown in the bottom picture below:

As a point of information, I have heard that some guitar makers are deliberately making the first fret a little shorter because of the difficulty of getting the tangent point EXACTLY at the edge with conventional nuts.

On another note, while developing this design, I made several prototypes with no backset at all, and inserts that were .060, and I had no intonation problems at all.

uncle.fogey - Posted - 07/19/2012:  12:38:26

quote:

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Originally posted by Harreec



FINALLY, I can glue the fingerboard onto the neck blank - I DO NOT have the pips in place when I do this.<br i="" clamp="" it="" very="" firmly="" onto="" my="" cast="" iron="" table="" saw="" table,="" using="" beech="" cauls,="" and="" make="" darned="" sure,="" doesn't="" slide="" around.="" want="" this="" to="" be="" perfectly="" aligned="" dead="" flat="" when="" unclamp="" it,="" which="" is="" -="" leave="" them="" clamped="" down="" for="" 8="" hours:<br=""> If you are gluing up a <span data-scayt_word="radiused" data-scaytid="2">radiused</span> fingerboard to the neck blank do you put some kind of a material between the saw table and the fingerboard to conform to the radius? </font><hr height="1" id="quote" noshade="noshade"></blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote><blockquote>You would use a piece of wood that had a concave radius sanded into it as a <span data-scayt_word="caul" data-scaytid="49">caul</span>. <br></blockquote><blockquote>When I make radius sanding blocks, I start with a convex one, which is easier to make, then use <em>that</em> to make the concave one, which shapes the fingerboard, therefore I always have a perfectly matched pair.<br></blockquote><blockquote>The convex one can be used to sand the radius into the <span data-scayt_word="caul" data-scaytid="198">caul</span>.<img src="i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy...jpg" data-cke-saved-src="i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy...jpg" style="width: 500px; height: 865px;" alt=""><br></blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote><p></p>

uncle.fogey - Posted - 07/19/2012:  13:01:48

quote:

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Originally posted by Harreec



FINALLY, I can glue the fingerboard onto the neck blank - I DO NOT have the pips in place when I do this.

I use a concave wood caul between the fingerboard and the tablesaw table.

When I make a radius sanding block, I do that by first making a convex block, which is easy to make with a disk sander, then I use that convex one to make the concave one that actually sands the radius on the fingerboard.

That way, I always have a perfectly matched "male and female" set of radius sanding blocks:

I would use the convex one to shape the caul, which will be a perfect match for the radius.