OldTimeGal - Posted - 06/03/2012:  17:46:48

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Newbie banjo player here - I've just installed nylguts on my vintage open-back, and I'm not sure that I like them, but will give them a few more days to settle in.   Wondered if there is an acceptable metal string to use for playing on open-back banjos?

pastorharry - Posted - 06/03/2012:  17:49:59

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Any strings will do. I use Ome mediums,available from Elderly or Zepp, or Ome.

EDIT; I just noticed you have an old,(vintage) banjo, so I would probably change my recommendation to Light gauge strings, as the neck of your banjo probably does not have a truss rod, so you want to keep the tension fairly light . I like Ome strings because of the Chenille wrap on the loop end which helps a bit with overtones on your no-knot tailpiece. Hope this helps.

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Edited by - pastorharry on 06/03/2012 17:58:23

1901 Fairbanks - Posted - 06/03/2012:  18:24:51

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Give those Nylguts a week. I bet you'll love them. They don't just quit stretching, they find their voice.

fiddlemike - Posted - 06/03/2012:  18:29:08

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Some banjos can be particular in the strings that work best for them. I have a Prust Tackhead and I found that the NylGut 7B "MINSTREL" in a D tuning work best. I tried nylon strings and the Nylgut 1B Classical strings in a G tuning, but they were too loose or the sound was not what I was looking for. The Minstrel strings tuned up nice and after a week of stretching stayed in tune. I use the low D tuning (dADF#A) as my base and all the other tunings are adjusted from there. I think that you need to experiment with different string sets to find the one that you banjo is meant for.

dbrooks - Posted - 06/03/2012:  19:03:14

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What is it that is putting you off?  Low volume? Thin tone? Strings stretching too much?  I have Nylgut on two 1890s Bay State banjos, and one sounds awesome and one (lightly played before I got it) has some bad days but is getting better.  Nylguts will be easier on the neck of your old banjo, and they will not wear the frets down.  I stretch mine quite a bit as I put them on, and that helps reduce the time it takes for them to quit stretching.  I have also found that I have had to adjust my expectations a bit to accept the voice that each banjo has rather than impose the voice I want out of it -- especially an old banjo.

You might try a taller bridge.  A bridge without the black cap may help as well on some older banjos.  If you have to go with steel strings, definitely use light gauge.

David Brooks

Clawhammer tab eBooks for Kindle

amazon.com/author/dbrooks

RG - Posted - 06/03/2012:  19:22:58

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They're not metal, but for a vintage banjo try Chris Sands nylon strings (I have used the heavy & medium gauges), I prefer them much better than the nylguts on a WIDE variety of vintage banjos...plus, you can tune them up to "A" and "D" so they are much more versatile...

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Edited by - RG on 06/03/2012 19:29:16

hweinberg - Posted - 06/03/2012:  19:36:15

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If your budget allows it, try real gut. --Howard

OldTimeGal - Posted - 06/03/2012:  19:57:33

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Thanks for all the input everyone - sounds like I need to give them a week to settle in before deciding if need to rethink. I installed the Aquila Nylgut 1B Classical Medium strings in a G tuning. I liked the feel of the fishing line I had on temporarily while waiting for the nylgut to arrive, the nylguts feel mushier, but maybe they need to finish stretching out yet. I made very precise bowline knots for attaching the nylguts to the tailpiece, no problem there. I found very nice instructions at zeppmusic.com/bowline.htm. I might try the Chris Sands nylons also if these don't work out. I do have a taller bridge on with a black cap, have re-designed my wood picks accordingly. I am trying to let the voice of this old banjo speak for itself, so I'll be very patient and give it time to settle in:-)

OldTimeGal - Posted - 06/03/2012:  20:01:41

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quote:

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Originally posted by hweinberg

If your budget allows it, try real gut. --Howard

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Real gut sounds really interesting - unfortunately no budget currently, but keeping that in mind for the future:-)

rendesvous1840 - Posted - 06/03/2012:  21:39:21

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Depending on the construction of your banjo, the tension of metal strings could damage the neck. Most modern banjos have metal reinforcements in the neck. How old is your banjo, and what make is it? If it wasn't designed for steel,it's probably best to stick with nylon or gut. They do take some stretching to settle down, but if you stretch them as you install them, you can minimize the break in period.
Paul

OldTimeGal - Posted - 06/03/2012:  21:59:33

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Maker of my banjo is unknown, age estimated at early 1900's, there are some photos on my home page. Definitely all wood neck, so I'll stick with nylon/gut then. I did stretch the strings out as much as I could when installing, so as advised I'll give it a week then to settle in. Thanks!

OldTimeGal - Posted - 06/03/2012:  22:12:41

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Maker of my banjo is unknown, age estimated at early 1900's, there are some photos on my home page. Definitely all wood neck, so I'll stick with nylon/gut then. I did stretch the strings out as much as I could when installing, so as advised I'll give it a week then to settle in. Thanks!

mbuk06 - Posted - 06/04/2012:  00:21:40

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Laurie, do you have friction pegs on your vintage banjo? Because these pegs tend to have limited 'grip' even when in good condition I couldn't get steel strings (light gauge) to stay in tune on my vintage banjo. And my adherence to steel meant I tried real hard. Helpful and much appreciated advice on here was also that with no truss-rod I may damage the neck with higher tension steel strings. The change to nylon strings takes quite some getting used to but can sound fantastic on vintage instruments when they 'settle in'. 

Bart McNeil - Posted - 06/04/2012:  00:23:06

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There is no question that there is a learning curve for nylon strings They do take some getting used to but they have a number of advantages, particularly if you play alone most of the time. They are naturally quieter than steel, but they have a mellow tone which steel strings normally don't have.

Your banjo will most likely take lite steel strings without a problem. I have several no-name banjos without truss rods from the 1920s and they do fine with light steel strings.

Another thing to consider is what type music you want to play. If Bluegrass then steel is much more aggressive than nylon and will certainly give you more volume.

However if you like less aggressive sound and playing then nylon may be your thing....

But once your are comfortable with the nylon strings you have on it now you might just try lite steel strings sometime in the future. I think it all depends on how aggressive you want your sound to be. And by the way,,,, as a beginner you may have already found that the nylon strings are fairly easy on your fingertips and you can slowly develope your calouses. I found steel to be killers on my dainty fingertips... But I have great calouses now and can play any length of time without a problem on steel or nylon.

deuceswilde - Posted - 06/04/2012:  03:40:39

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So I see the old "nylon/gut is quiet" myth is still floating around amoung the main streamers.

OldTimeGal - Posted - 06/04/2012:  04:32:27

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I've just recently had the friction tuners replaced with some nice modern ones, as the friction ones would no longer hold. Deuceswilde, you are such an instigator:-) I use custom-made wood finger picks of my own design, and one standard metal pick, learning both "Scruggs" and "Older-than-Scruggs" styles. I don't use just fingers. Actually, using picks on nylon while obviously not as loud as a metal string/resonator setup, does actually produce a pretty feisty volume. The nylguts have a very different sensibility, so exploring them yet. I liked the crispness of the metal strings, but the bounce/sound of the nylon is intriguing, so learning to work with them as they settle in. Decided to hold critique at bay for now. Too new yet to figure out what type of music to play, so far really like both alternating thumb rolls, etc. and "Older-Than-Scruggs" kind of songs:-). Just playing everything I can!

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Edited by - OldTimeGal on 06/04/2012 04:39:42

mojo_monk - Posted - 06/04/2012:  05:49:14

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quote:

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Originally posted by deuceswilde



So I see the old "nylon/gut is quiet" myth is still floating around amoung the main streamers.

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Stange, isn't it?

I've been using Nylguts exclusively for 5 years and I have found my banjo to be LOUDER than most steel-strung open backs. A few people have commented that my banjo can be heard at festivals from "miles away." I'm sure it's an exaggeration, but you get the picture.

Gotta get (or make) a lightweight, non-ebony capped bridged to get the most out of them though. Perhaps this is why most folks haven't had the same experience...

Good luck!

 

-Sean

Bart McNeil - Posted - 06/04/2012:  07:01:06

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"I've just recently had the friction tuners replaced with some nice modern ones, as the friction ones would no longer hold. "

Don't throw the old tuners out... There is almost certainly nothing wrong with them. Normally all you need is to rub some violin rosin onto the tuner shaft flange where it makes contact with the wood headstock on the knob side of the tuner.. That will increase the friction enough and then you adjust that little screw on the tuner knob until it holds well, yet still allows you to tune the string. It would take you five minutes to get used to it and adjust your friction tuners. There are still high quality banjos made which use friction tuners if you wish. Their beauty is that they virtually never wear out and are cheaper to begin with.

I use friction tuners on three of my banjos and they have worked for a hundred years. No reason why they sholdn't work a few hundred more years.

OldTimeGal - Posted - 06/04/2012:  07:03:21

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quote:

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Originally posted by mojo_monk

quote:

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Originally posted by deuceswilde



So I see the old "nylon/gut is quiet" myth is still floating around amoung the main streamers.

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Stange, isn't it?

I've been using Nylguts exclusively for 5 years and I have found my banjo to be LOUDER than most steel-strung open backs. A few people have commented that my banjo can be heard at festivals from "miles away." I'm sure it's an exaggeration, but you get the picture.

Gotta get (or make) a lightweight, non-ebony capped bridged to get the most out of them though. Perhaps this is why most folks haven't had the same experience...

Good luck!

 

-Sean

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noshade="noshade" />

Are you using fingers or picks on the strings? With my picks I notice quite a loud solid boom, different sound from metal strings, which I find intriguing, so giving the Nylguts a chance to settle in yet to see how my instrument likes them. I've seen mentioned in other threads that others have had luck with non-ebony capped bridges also, but putting that on reserve - one adjustment at a time:-). One reason I'm using picks is my finger tips don't have as much feeling to them due to years of waiting at bus stops in frozen Minnesota winters with inadequate mittens - but love my picks...

OldTimeGal - Posted - 06/04/2012:  07:21:00

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bart McNeil

"I've just recently had the friction tuners replaced with some nice modern ones, as the friction ones would no longer hold. "

Don't throw the old tuners out... There is almost certainly nothing wrong with them. Normally all you need is to rub some violin rosin onto the tuner shaft flange where it makes contact with the wood headstock on the knob side of the tuner.. That will increase the friction enough and then you adjust that little screw on the tuner knob until it holds well, yet still allows you to tune the string. It would take you five minutes to get used to it and adjust your friction tuners. There are still high quality banjos made which use friction tuners if you wish. Their beauty is that they virtually never wear out and are cheaper to begin with.

I use friction tuners on three of my banjos and they have worked for a hundred years. No reason why they sholdn't work a few hundred more years.

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Thanks - I share your sentiment, I did keep the old friction tuners. Unfortunately, I'm learning tacit knowledge after the fact - I purchased this banjo about ten years ago and at that time put regular bluegrass strings on it, and it sounded very sweet, but didn't know about open back nylon requirements. Then it went in the closet due to life happening. Have now rescued it, had a luthier work on neck, replace pegs and add a higher bridge - instrument still seems to work fine. Had I this knowledge before going to local luthier probably would have chosen a more gentle path, but instrument seems to have pulled through. Can't always find/afford experts such as yourself locally, BHO has been wonderful in steering me in the right direction, albeit with different perspectives:-) Photos of it are on my home page.

hoverflytheo - Posted - 06/04/2012:  07:41:29

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I've got one old banjo I keep bouncing between strings on. When I got it, it had light steel string (electric guitar strings, actually.) I assume it was built for steel because the nut slots were very ​thin - almost too thin for heavier steel.

The sound with steel was so-so. I wanted to try nylgut, especially with it being an old spun-rim banjo from around the era of gut strings, even if it had never sported them itself. So I put on an all-nylgut classical set. Since the banjo was a bit shorter than standard I decided to tune them up to A standard.

I liked the sound, but it was a bit thin, and after a few months I decided to go for nylgut minstel gauge tuned to E standard (eBEG#B.) I liked those too, but they were a bit heavy and quite loose for my taste. I love them on fretless banjos, mind you, but with frets they just seemed a bit cumbersome.

So now I've got the nylgut classicals back on (with a wound 4th, this time), tuned to G standard, and I like it, though that's not to say I won't change them again. I'd also love to try real gut on that banjo some time.

I think the minstrels sound better on either a fretless or a slightly longer scale (or both, like the real minstrel banjos.) They were a better tension tuned up a semitone to F, but I figured if I was doing that I might as well put my classicals back on and tune to G. There's advantages to being tuned to a more standard pitch with regards to jamming.

john bange - Posted - 06/04/2012:  07:50:15

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quote:

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Originally posted by deuceswilde



So I see the old "nylon/gut is quiet" myth is still floating around amoung the main streamers.

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 me too!  my banjos are very loud with the fishing line strings...at least as loud as with steel...

as has already been said...there is a learning curve with the nylon strings but it is worth it

Carlos Benavides - Posted - 06/04/2012:  09:10:07

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quote:

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Originally posted by mojo_monk

quote:

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Originally posted by deuceswilde



So I see the old "nylon/gut is quiet" myth is still floating around amoung the main streamers.

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Stange, isn't it?

I've been using Nylguts exclusively for 5 years and I have found my banjo to be LOUDER than most steel-strung open backs. A few people have commented that my banjo can be heard at festivals from "miles away." I'm sure it's an exaggeration, but you get the picture.

Gotta get (or make) a lightweight, non-ebony capped bridged to get the most out of them though. Perhaps this is why most folks haven't had the same experience...

Good luck!

 

-Sean

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I agree, nylgut is LOUD! I have three banjos, two steel stringed (resonator & openback) but my wife swears that it's the nylgut tackhead which is the loudest. I'll take her word for it, 'cause it' hard to tell from the player's perspective how an instrument projects its sound.

I found that a taller 11/16 bridge was necessary for the correct bridge-to-head tension - the 5/8 made it much quieter. I'm thinking of going with a two-footer, instead of the current multi-foot "spillway" design I have, to see if I can get better tone. I would never call it a 'quiet banjo' however.

Carlos Benavides - Posted - 06/04/2012:  09:17:56

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About loudness & nylgut . . . .  Maybe it's because the human ear hears more of the middle spectrum frequencies better than it can of the very low and very high frequencies. Maybe this accounts for the perceived loudness. I think a steel stringed instrument would be very loud in the upper ranges. I'm sure bats think steel stringed banjos are super loud! Similarly, playing a bass might scare off a few elephants. I wonder.

deuceswilde - Posted - 06/04/2012:  09:42:47

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A strong "attack" with the right hand is the trick. Ian at the classic banjo ning site has some videos up on that very subject. We have 150+ years of "soft" string observations so there is no reason to reinvent the wheel. Hawaiian guitar picks are not needed. With practice, the bare fingertips will act as a rosined bow against the strings. Play near the bridge, and don't let the strings slap against the frets when picking. Strike firmly with the nail when striking. A thimble (of any kind, make one if need be) really helps. There is a huge body of work written on playing with soft strings right at your fingertips. Sorry about all one paragraph, for some reason my phone won't break it up.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 06/04/2012:  10:27:52

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I'll chime in and say that after you've given the nylguts a thorough try, do indeed try the Chris Sands "heavies". They aren't noisier but the feel is 'stiffer'. I wandered back and forth between Nylgut and Sands for a while but settled on Nylgut (for some years now).

Gut is damned expensive and frankly, I found it only marginally better (in feel more than tone) than either the Nylgut or Sands. Marginally...meaning I cannot justify the crazy difference in cost.

Those picks of yours are seriously steampunk. Very cool. I cannot imagine playing fingerstyle on nylgut with anything but my fingertips (and occasionally nails). Back in the day, there was similar controversy over what to use (picks, nails, fingertips, teeth, noses, toeses, etc.). Use what makes you happy. I do enjoy playing a banjo sans accouterments (no need for a pick pouch, no "where's my picks?", no looking thru the washer or dryer for a mangled, albeit clean, pick). It took me a little while to get my fingertips working properly but I believe the switch to "meat" from "nails" helped me discover the absolute dynamic range of the instrument.

Coming from the "loud 'n' proud" bluegrass pastures, I started out playing very close to the bridge. No longer. I play closer to the neck/pot juncture and revel in getting a nice delicate PP as opposed to that formerly rattle-n-hum F-Fz. Of course, with practice, you'll get both on demand.

It is good to experiment. Give the nylguts time to settle down and wail on them once they're settled. When the 4th wears out, switch to Sands and try again. Fun will be had either way.

 

 

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 06/04/2012:  10:54:48

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I have 10 diverse banjos, 7 strung with Nylgut and 3 with steel. I don't find the Nylgut to be quieter than the steel at all.

Nylgut is much easier on the fingers and the nails, and in my opinion, does not require picks.

 

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Edited by - Marc Nerenberg on 06/04/2012 10:56:01

strokestyle - Posted - 06/04/2012:  11:14:20

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Old Time Gal  Glad to know your going to give your classical nylons a try.  I did give up on classical's and went to the all nylgut. I have one banjo I keep in Minstrel's, because the wound string sounds so right on the longer scale length. I have not tried Chris Sands, but have been tempted. The set-up for your banjo is as important as the feel of your strings. With good set-up and all nylgut strings you may find what your seeking. Enjoy that new-old banjo!

FYI and off the subject ...Being an artist you might be interested in my daughters pottery. She has perfected making fish and her glazing is powerful, take a look facebook.com/pages/Mississippi...748597039

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 06/04/2012:  13:31:46

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I like Chris Sands Mediums for standard tuning on my 27 inch scale banjo (Jackie - my Avatar) I never got along with Nylguts. They stretched forever, they broke, and finally the winding unwrapped. Had them on less than a month.

As to a metal alternative - How straight and how heavy are the neck? If there is any problem or you are dealing with a thin (whippy) neck, stick with nylon. Try a Light set of metals and maybe tune a whole tone low. You can capo from there.

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Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 06/04/2012 13:34:32

OldTimeGal - Posted - 06/04/2012:  18:15:23

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What wonderful insight from everyone, from all viewpoints - thank you.  All the points are worth consideration, including discarding the picks, which I did briefly consider with the change to Nylgut strings.  However, I am so used to wearing the picks, even with the new design configuration - it's just like putting on your favorite old pair of hiking boots

I love my picks, they are definitely permanent.

I did an hour of practice today - AND YOU'RE RIGHT!!!  Oh my! The Nylguts have settled in much more today, much clearer and louder, the subtle undertones that are emerging are great!  I tend to play closer to the neck.  For the first time I was able to get three separate distinct notes out of one pick: an up-pick on third string third fret, hammer down on second string second fret, and then pull off on same for the third note.  This "basic model - maker unknown" banjo throws a lot of punch, it has a lot of volume, and is really starting to hum now with happy sounds - it's definitely developing its voice.  The neck is beautiful, so smooth, old brown warm wood, light, straight and sturdy, the back of the neck is a wonderfully round slightly angled shape to hold.  I'm staying with the nylon.  Hopefully they will finish stretching in a few days, as not everyone I see has had a good experience with them.  I'll order a set of Chris Sands and maybe the 'all nylguts' for back-up in case issues do arise.  I'll try to upload a visual/sound example in a week or so.  Strokestyle, love your daughter's business name and ceramic fish, they're wonderful:-)

Keep up the banjo bliss everyone.

Old Time Gal

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Edited by - OldTimeGal on 06/04/2012 18:22:16

OldTimeGal - Posted - 06/04/2012:  22:57:47

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quote:

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Originally posted by OldTimeGal

"...For the first time I was able to get three separate distinct notes out of one pick: an up-pick on third string third fret, hammer down on second string second fret, and then pull off on same for the third note..."

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That's a typo of course - hammer down on third string, not second string...

I discovered the Polymer Discussion Group and have now joined:-)

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Edited by - OldTimeGal on 06/04/2012 23:00:16

TX2AK - Posted - 06/05/2012:  01:12:03

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If you don't like the Nylgut, give florocarbon a try before switching to steel. I haven't bought Nylguts, because nobody here sells them, and frankly, I like making my own strings from fishing line (which I have loads of, bc I fly fish a lot). There are folks who strongly prefer Nylguts, and I can't argue, bc I haven't tried them; but technically speaking, Nylguts are mono-filament nylon (same basic material as standard fishing line, though folks say they are a better formula). Compared to mono fishing line, florocarbon is worlds better. I think it has a very similar sound and feel to mono, but is much lower stretch/higher tension (though not even approaching steel, so plenty safe on an old banjo). I think the higher tension gives more volume and is more playable. Do run the line through sandpaper a couple of times to give that roughed bite.

If you don't have or know anyone with a bunch of floro line, and don't want to buy (it's more expensive than mono), I think there are folks making strings for banjo. Ukulele and harp folks have been using floro for a long time. Don't know why more banjo folks haven't jumped on board.

OldTimeGal - Posted - 06/05/2012:  05:14:21

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quote:

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Originally posted by TX2AK

If you don't like the Nylgut, give florocarbon a try before switching to steel. I haven't bought Nylguts, because nobody here sells them, and frankly, I like making my own strings from fishing line (which I have loads of, bc I fly fish a lot). There are folks who strongly prefer Nylguts, and I can't argue, bc I haven't tried them; but technically speaking, Nylguts are mono-filament nylon (same basic material as standard fishing line, though folks say they are a better formula). Compared to mono fishing line, florocarbon is worlds better. I think it has a very similar sound and feel to mono, but is much lower stretch/higher tension (though not even approaching steel, so plenty safe on an old banjo). I think the higher tension gives more volume and is more playable. Do run the line through sandpaper a couple of times to give that roughed bite.

If you don't have or know anyone with a bunch of floro line, and don't want to buy (it's more expensive than mono), I think there are folks making strings for banjo. Ukulele and harp folks have been using floro for a long time. Don't know why more banjo folks haven't jumped on board.

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Interesting! Yes, I had regular fishing line on temporarily, and it sure wasn't bad, kept it's tune. The Nylgut seems to have more volume/depth/nuances, which is nice to explore. But as with all material, there is much variety. It would be fun to try the fluorocarbon as well, I'll check it out. What about what is used for stringing tennis or badmitten rackets, etc. ? Has anyone explored that material? Oh dear, I better not get started, I've just recently concluded my wood pick building phase which reached an acceptable conclusion - looking now at my pile of wood and variety of tools that need to be put away today. Once I start an experimentation phase all sorts of materials start gathering...you know, it would be fun to build a banjo to use solely for the purpose of trying out new materials...and those technical threads are so much fun to read:-)

OldTimeGal - Posted - 06/11/2012:  18:39:31

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Greetings - reporting back. I'm using Aquila's Classic Banjo New Nylgut, Medium, (with a wound 4th), tuned to G standard on my open back. I'm using a custom wood thumb pick, a ProPik 2-angle metal finger pick on I, and a custom double-sided wood finger pick on M. It took about a week and a half for the Nylguts to settle in. I like them a lot better than the metal strings, even though they are harder to get a grip on. What's really nice is the Nylguts' flexibility to go from a quiet mellow soft sound, to a large bold boom, with a slight twang. I've exploring different playing styles, exploring for now with blue grass rolls, pull-offs, etc. and also using the double-sided pick for a down-stroke strum, pluck 5th string, immediately followed by up picking melody notes using the other side of the pick. Can anyone tell me what playing style that is, if any? - whatever it is, I really like to play it, just exploring a lot of chords/notes without tabs. I'll try some of the other string suggestions in this thread when I can. Thanks for all your help, everyone!