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wolpert - Posted - 05/19/2012: 22:16:33
Folks-
I started futzing with a nylon fretless banjo today, and really liked it and now looking forward to buy one... but I'm trying to decide on what features I want on it.. I specifically would like to know how the tone ring impacts the sound from a nylon-strung banjo. Is it the same way as a steel-string banjo? Will a white-lightening or tubaphone tone-ring basically just make it louder? Or would it make a dramatic change? There are not a lot of nylon-string banjo's around where I live, so I can't go and play a bunch of different ones.. (The fretless Ohm one I played was wonderful, but I have no others to compare it with.)
jduke - Posted - 05/20/2012: 12:35:44
I keep my Recording King w/ Whyte Laydee tone ring strung w/ nylon and love the sound. It's not fretless though.
All of my fretless experience has been with mountain type banjos which generally have no tone rings. I know that there are techiniques, like sliding on your fingernails, that will add more ring to a ftetless, but the usual approach means that you are using the flesh of your finger tip to note, instead of a fret. This creates a sound that is different than playing a fretted banjo and is part of the fretless style. A simple ring type tone ring or perhaps an old spon-over type rim is not un common with fretless banjos, but I would think a more sophisticated tone ring would actually detract from the sound many of us appreciate about a fretless banjo.
Jeff
Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 05/20/2012: 15:28:22
Tone rings affect the quality of the tone (not just the volume) for nylon strings just as they do for steel.
I have both Nylgut and steel strung banjos with Tubaphone and Whyte Ladye tone rings and I find that the steel and Nylgut string sounds are both altered in the same way as compared to non tone ring banjos (which I also have).
This is not to say that the steel and Nylgut strung banjos sound the same as each other - because, of course, steel and Nylgut don't sound the same as each other - but the way in which the tone of the banjo is altered by the tone ring seems to me to be the same no matter what type of strings you use.
Edited by - Marc Nerenberg on 05/20/2012 15:29:54
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/20/2012: 19:57:50
I'd like to know where I could get a White Lightning Tone Ring, But I kinda wonder if they are legal in every county of NC.
As Marc says, nylon strings have a different tonality. In general Steel strings have a more strident sound and they don't fade as quickly, leaving people with the impression they are louder. The volume is pretty similar to steel strings. I'm having a Whyte Laydie tonering put into a banjo later this year. It will have a skin head to start, and I'll decide from the tone I get which type of strings to use.
Sultans of Claw - Posted - 05/20/2012: 20:10:17
quote:
Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb
I'd like to know where I could get a White Lightning Tone Ring,
Wilkesboro? 
Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 05/20/2012: 21:12:36
I note that in three successive posts, the "lady" part in "Whyte Laydie tone ring" was spelled 3 different ways. The woodchuck got it right! (I didn't)
wolpert - Posted - 05/20/2012: 21:20:37
So, in general people don't use tone rings on fretless banjos? I thought the one I played had a wood tonering on it, but I could be wrong.
Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 05/20/2012: 21:46:30
quote:
Originally posted by wolpert
So, in general people don't use tone rings on fretless banjos? I thought the one I played had a wood tonering on it, but I could be wrong.
Why not? I don't see anything in this thread that would suggest not using a tone ring in a fretless banjo. The question you asked was about the impact of a tone ring on a nylon strung banjo. Different tone rings each alter the sound in their own characteristic way. One chooses the sound one wants. People most certainly do use tone rings in fretless banjos. A particularly popular one for that application would be a Dobson Silver Bell tone ring. Check out Adam Hurt's playing. (Clawhammerist on the Hangout.)
Edited by - Marc Nerenberg on 05/20/2012 21:47:29
wolpert - Posted - 05/21/2012: 09:14:30
quote:
Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg
Why not? I don't see anything in this thread that would suggest not using a tone ring in a fretless banjo. The question you asked was about the impact of a tone ring on a nylon strung banjo.
Actually, jduke say that the tone-ring would detract from the sound of a fretless banjo (First reply to my original question), Though my question was unfortunately vague, I was trying to get information on the tone ring on a fretless nylon-strung banjo... the original question I posed in my title. (Next time I'll make the body of the post match the title :-)
I'll check-out Adam Hurt's stuff. I may need to search through the recordings to find different sounds from different fretless banjos to see which tone rings I like the most. I wish here in the desert I could find a place that had multiple fretless banjos with different tonerings to hear.
Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 05/21/2012: 09:43:51
quote:
Originally posted by wolpert
quote:
Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg
Why not? I don't see anything in this thread that would suggest not using a tone ring in a fretless banjo. The question you asked was about the impact of a tone ring on a nylon strung banjo.
Actually, jduke say that the tone-ring would detract from the sound of a fretless banjo (First reply to my original question), Though my question was unfortunately vague, I was trying to get information on the tone ring on a fretless nylon-strung banjo... the original question I posed in my title. (Next time I'll make the body of the post match the title :-)
I'll check-out Adam Hurt's stuff. I may need to search through the recordings to find different sounds from different fretless banjos to see which tone rings I like the most. I wish here in the desert I could find a place that had multiple fretless banjos with different tonerings to hear.
Well, recall that jduke said: "All of my fretless experience has been with mountain type banjos which generally have no tone rings." So, he has no experience with any fretless banjos other than "mountain type banjos", and only speculates that "a more sophisticated tone ring would actually detract from the sound many of us appreciate about a fretless banjo."
The question really is, what sound are you interested in. I wouldn't be drawing any general conclusions that "in general people don't use tone rings on fretess banjos" from the speculation of one person who has never tried a fretless banjo with a tone ring. He may very well be correct that you won't like the sound of a complex tone ring in a fretless - but he's basing that idea on pure supposition.
I have no idea what sound you like - but I know I have heard some really beautiful playing on fretlesses with complex tone rings. A person who is drawn to the sound of a mountain banjo might not share that opinion.
I think searching through recordings and YouTube videos is really the way to go. there are some websites with comparisons of different tone ring sounds - I'm not sure where (I think Zepp's music store has some - there are a number of places on the web that have them). Personally, I don't think there's a different tone one goes for in a fretless than in a fretted banjo.
I have a "Dobson" fretless from the late 1800's and it has a tone ring - though a simple one. Adam Hurt's Dobson from the same era (or earlier), with it's large tone ring, has a sound I would certainly not turn my nose up at, that's for sure!
(Of course, Adam could probably play a tin can with an elastic band and get a good sound out of it!)
Edited by - Marc Nerenberg on 05/21/2012 09:48:45
plunknplinkntwang - Posted - 05/21/2012: 14:47:57
quote:
Originally posted by wolpert
Folks-
I started futzing with a nylon fretless banjo today, and really liked it and now looking forward to buy one... but I'm trying to decide on what features I want on it.. I specifically would like to know how the tone ring impacts the sound from a nylon-strung banjo. Is it the same way as a steel-string banjo? Will a white-lightening or tubaphone tone-ring basically just make it louder? Or would it make a dramatic change? There are not a lot of nylon-string banjo's around where I live, so I can't go and play a bunch of different ones.. (The fretless Ohm one I played was wonderful, but I have no others to compare it with.)
I play a nylon strung white laydie fretless and also have a steel strung spun over fretless too and in addition have a steel strung B&D silver bell type fretted banjo too. I used to switch between string types but in essence have settled on the current arrangement. My main banjo is the white laydie, occasionally the fretted silver bell. I like the expressiveness of a fretless but though habitually tune low [F vs. G dbl B vs. dbl C] I don't like the banjo to be too flat/plunky.
Yes - a banjo with a tone ring has a greatly modified tone when compared with a non tone ring banjo. Fretless affects how crisp each note sounds as there is no definite & predetermined scale but ultimately the sound is more affected by the tone ring/pot than strings. The trick is deciding what sound you like from a banjo and that may take a while as you develop your taste.
In some respects you won't go far wrong with the OME as it's a banjo recognised for its quality and craftmanship, so you will be able to sell it on if you decide that you want something different
rgds
Chris
J-Walk - Posted - 05/21/2012: 17:12:04
I think you just have to try everything and see what you prefer.. Then, a year later, try everything again and there's a good chance you'll prefer something different than what you preferred a year ago. At least that's how it works with me.
That's what I like about banjos. There are no absolutes. The player's taste and preference changes all the time. A banjo that sounded crappy with steel strings two years ago now sounds awesome to me. I think part of the equation is that I've adjusted my playing style to the banjo. Or maybe I'm just getting deafer.
wolpert - Posted - 05/21/2012: 21:28:02
Thanks for the advice folks. This really helped me out. I'll keep listening to different recordings to see what sounds good. I'll check out Adam Hurt's tunes and see what Zepp has as well... thanks for those pointers Marc.
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/21/2012: 21:40:29
Check out the recordings of Fred Cockerham. He played a fretless banjo made by Kyle Creed. It has a simple brass hoop inset into the top. The "fretboard" was covered in formica, which gives a mellower tone than a brass fingerboard but more sustain than plain wood.
Were I having a fretless made, I suspect this is exactly the pattern I would use. However, I really would like to try a fretless Whyte Laydie at some time. I suspect the sound would be really sweet.
Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 05/21/2012 21:41:42
erikforgod - Posted - 05/22/2012: 05:20:16
There is a guy in western North Carolina who just happens to make and sell banjos, fretless with formica fingerboards and I wanna say he is Kirk Sutphins cousin..anyways he is a luthier he calls his little shop "Round-Peak banjos...he was also featured with David Holt on UNCtv ( saw it on you-tube ) you might wanna contact him about a fretless banjo..I dunno if he is a BHO member. He also uses a dark colored formica that mimics an ebony fingerboard, as well as making a reproduction model of Fred Cockerhams Creed formica fretless:
roundpeakbanjos.com/
In my gut I feel like I wanna fretless banjo but as of late I have been sorta wimpin out about the whole thing. I live in Argentina so I would have more luck finding a fretless Flamenco or Chirango than a fretless banjo ( although I did find one store that sold cheapy asian banjos, but not the strings to play them..didnt have ANY!! )
Anyways I want my next banjp to be a serious investment on something a bit more ritzy, not blingy...with lots of inlays and stuff, but just beautiful wood. Something probably luthier made..hopefully for around U$S 1,000 or not more than U$S 2,000. Anyways I need to play a fretless first before I blow some big bucks to make sure its something I really want. If not I will buy a super nice fretted one and make my classic Goodtime a fretless. If not and I decide to purchase a nice fretless, I might go for the formica type fingerboard if I decide to also...so been checking into that as well...not sure what differences tone-rings bring. Some banjos I have heard with the tone-rings to my ears dont have as tight or a focused sound. Now that could be my own personal thing...everyone hears stuff different. I feel personally in my gut that wood would work best with wood, so maybe for a fretless I would consider a wooden tone ring? With the formica or a brass plate, I guess you dont have to worry about the ebony pitting with time or warping or cracking right...I assume they just lay the formica right over the neck...not sure.
Here is a video of Kirk playing his Cockerham copy that was built by this "Round-Peak" banjos luthier guy...he talks a bit about the banjo in the interview:
Edited by - erikforgod on 05/22/2012 05:31:57
Viper - Posted - 05/22/2012: 12:26:15
quote:
Originally posted by erikforgod
There is a guy in western North Carolina who just happens to make and sell banjos, fretless with formica fingerboards and I wanna say he is Kirk Sutphins cousin..anyways he is a luthier he calls his little shop "Round-Peak banjos...he was also featured with David Holt on UNCtv ( saw it on you-tube ) you might wanna contact him about a fretless banjo..I dunno if he is a BHO member. He also uses a dark colored formica that mimics an ebony fingerboard, as well as making a reproduction model of Fred Cockerhams Creed formica fretless:
roundpeakbanjos.com/
In my gut I feel like I wanna fretless banjo but as of late I have been sorta wimpin out about the whole thing. I live in Argentina so I would have more luck finding a fretless Flamenco or Chirango than a fretless banjo ( although I did find one store that sold cheapy asian banjos, but not the strings to play them..didnt have ANY!! )
Anyways I want my next banjp to be a serious investment on something a bit more ritzy, not blingy...with lots of inlays and stuff, but just beautiful wood. Something probably luthier made..hopefully for around U$S 1,000 or not more than U$S 2,000. Anyways I need to play a fretless first before I blow some big bucks to make sure its something I really want. If not I will buy a super nice fretted one and make my classic Goodtime a fretless. If not and I decide to purchase a nice fretless, I might go for the formica type fingerboard if I decide to also...so been checking into that as well...not sure what differences tone-rings bring. Some banjos I have heard with the tone-rings to my ears dont have as tight or a focused sound. Now that could be my own personal thing...everyone hears stuff different. I feel personally in my gut that wood would work best with wood, so maybe for a fretless I would consider a wooden tone ring? With the formica or a brass plate, I guess you dont have to worry about the ebony pitting with time or warping or cracking right...I assume they just lay the formica right over the neck...not sure.
Here is a video of Kirk playing his Cockerham copy that was built by this "Round-Peak" banjos luthier guy...he talks a bit about the banjo in the interview:
That would be Kevin Fore
blueridgeheritage.com/traditio...evin-fore
erikforgod - Posted - 05/23/2012: 07:04:06
I contacted Kevin yesterday by email...he replied very quickly and as expected...that North Carolina hospitality shined. He has a very reasonable asking price of U$S 1500 for a basic fretless banjo 11" or 12" black formica fingerboard and one has an assortment of peghead shapes to choose from, maple rims and maple or walnut necks. He told me he is replacing the neck on Kirks Cockerham copy banjo right now and was working on it as I sent him the email. He would definately be a luthier well worth considering for a great banjo...and he is from right in the heart of Surrey county NC...doesnt get any more down home than that!
Anyone ever play a fretless banjo with a formica fingerboard here? Whats is it like?
jduke - Posted - 05/23/2012: 18:27:38
A friend had put together a Goodtime form second parts he had gotten for Deering. He sold it in his
music store several times, but folks always brought it back and traded up. He ended up selling it to me
for next to nothing.
I pulled the first seven frets and glued down a thin sheet of white Formica. I cut an S shape between the sixth
and seventh fret and cut the frets to fit back in the partial slots. I turned out quite well, looked sharp
and played great. I used to take it to jams regularly. I used metal strings. I was happy with it from
the get go and played it a lot that first day.
That evening I was looking at a banjo book or mag and saw some Gibsons. I went back out to the shop,
cut a small rectangle of Formica and used an engraving tool to letter it. I glued it in at the 19nd fret and
my “ Formicatones “ were born. I’ve made several since then, but that one was the best. Wish I still
had it.
Jeff
Edited by - jduke on 05/23/2012 18:32:01
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/23/2012: 19:53:38
Eric,
I've played a couple formica topped fretless banjos over the years, but I'm probably not the best to review them as I don't normally play fretless. My hearing is not accurate enough for fretless playing due to my tinnitus. I can't really hear the pitch well enough unless I'm playing solo. In a jam - even a small one, I can never hear myself well enough to have good intonation. I just don't play solo often enough to want to spend money on a fretless.
The formica strikes me as the best compromise between wood and metal. I find it almost impossible to get enough fingernail to create a slide on a wooden fingerboard like a Profitt or other mountain style banjo. Formica gives a nice swoopy slide. It will usually fade quickly but the note doesn't sound as if it has been "cut off" early
I can't say much about metal fingerboards. They do have more sustain than formica but I really can't use them. I'm quite allergic to brass fingerboards and don't recommend them for anyone who has any trouble with metals. The oxidation is there even when you can't see it and you are constantly wiping it off with your fingers. For me the first sign of trouble is when I begin to "taste" the brass. If I don't get away from it immediately I will get hives on my left arm and sometimes my chest. I usually feel pretty nauseous for a couple days too.
If you go for a wood finger board I suggest you avoid anything that has been stained - some fingerboards have pearwood stained to match ebony - some even have stained ebony. I once bought a banjo I had to return because I had a reaction to the stain on the fingerboard. It wasn't a fretless, and I know it was the stain I reacted to because some of it came off on my fingers. I was sick for a week from that. If you ever find stain on your fingers after playing I suggest you get rid of the banjo.
The only metal I could recommend for a fingerboard is Stainless Steel. I know I even react to nickel. While I'm not sure abut some other metals, I don't particularly feel like finding out the hard way, and really don't think anyone else should have to find out either.
Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 05/23/2012 19:57:09
RG - Posted - 05/23/2012: 20:16:56
Formica fretboards sound great, I've built a couple around vintage spun-over pots, really like them...here's a quick and dirty 2 finger thumb lead version of "Down the Road" played on the one on the left...strung up with Chris Sands heavy nylon strings and a frosted remo head...BTW, Kevin Fore makes some great looking and sounding banjos, really outstanding instruments...
Tone rings, from brass rods, hoops, Electrics, Dobson's to Tub-a-phone's all have unique characteristics and to me all of them sound great on properly set-up fretted or fretless banjos...you can't go wrong...
Enjoy your fretless journey...
Edited by - RG on 05/23/2012 20:22:01
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/23/2012: 20:26:00
RG
Nice looking banjos. I especially like the Formica pattern - And I envy that tailpiece on the left hand (RG original) banjo.
RG - Posted - 05/23/2012: 20:43:28
Thanks Tony, that pattern is "Labrador Granite"...formica comes in 4' x 8' sheets, I bought one that had a corner chipped away for half price, so I still have a garage full of formica that I paid about $25.00 for...a good friend of mine lives in an early 60's track home in which the entire kitchen is done up in the famous "white sparkle" pattern that Kyle Creed used on Fred Cockerham's banjo...I keep telling him he should do a complete re-model and give me the scrap formica counter tops...
I can't take credit for that tailpiece, that's a Will Fielding, they look and sound great...really prefer his tailpieces over No-knots...
fieldingbanjos.com/tailpieces.html
erikforgod - Posted - 05/24/2012: 05:18:35
I am thinking the formica seems like a pretty good choice...and I most certainly dont want to get toxic poisoning from a stained neck...I dunno why they stain ebony anyways...in its natural state it has beautiful grain. This is kinda where I am at with my next banjo...which I have already discussed with my wife and hopefully in another year or so we can make it happen. I have been researching various builders. I am not sure if I wanna spring big bucks for a fancy fretless, or a fancy well built fretted banjo and just do like JDuke did and strip some frets off my Goodytime Classic and lay down a strip of "formica" or something and do it that way. I imagine I probably could swing playing fretless, but if I invest bigger bucks in a nice banjo I want it to be my "go-to" banjo and not sit in the corner...that way my wife wont kill me lol!!
Kevin Fore from Surrey county strikes me as the "builder" if one wants a formica fingerboard as it seems this is his speciality and the price tag is quite reasonable. For me if I got as high as U$S 2000 on a new banjo ( which to me is pushing it ) its GOTTA be a really spectacular banjo. Also I am finding I can play just as easily over the fingerboard as opposed to a scoop...the scoop is nice, but really unnecessary for me. My next banjo, if its fretted, wont be scooped but just have the frets pulled at the bottom of the fingerboard where I can get in there and play a bit over the neck when I want to..even if its fretless I wont scoop it. I have sometime to think this over....definately want a fretless, just not sure with regards to my actual next "super nice" banjo that I plan on investing in purchasing/having built.
RG - That fiddle/paddle gentle curves shaped peghead ( the one on your banjo on the left with the fluer-de-lis that is one of the peghead shapes I am seriously considering. If not I like the slotted paddle pegheads with the spanish guitar style tuners...kinda like what you see in classical guitars...those styles are nice too. There are some Argentine luthiers here that make those slotted pegheads for the spanish guitars and carve intricate carvings in them...they are quite striking and beautiful. The dark formica looks great though....formica...whuda ever thunk to use that for a fingerboard...LOL!
Edited by - erikforgod on 05/24/2012 05:34:02
erikforgod - Posted - 05/24/2012: 05:36:53
For example imagine a fretless banjo with a slotted peghead with an artistic flair like one in the picture shown. This guitar is an Argentine spanish guitar and the hand carvings in the veneer is a trademark of alot of argentine luthiery. I would like to see some banjo builders doing this kind of work in the states..its very beautiful.
arnie - Posted - 05/24/2012: 06:49:22
I just checked out a Bill Rickard nyglut strung Whyte Laydie banjo he built for someone in Australia. The top part was fretless with a brass overlay. The head was calf skin. This banjo had killer great tone and played well all the way up the neck!!!
farmer bob - Posted - 05/24/2012: 10:46:53
I build my banjos with only a simple 1/4" brass tone ring and they sound pretty good. I only use oil varnish on the fingerboard. Ebony is usually darkened with black shoe polish. Formica belongs on the counter top I can't conceive of using it on a banjo. The next fretless I make, if I ever find the time will have a rosewood fingerboard... Bob.
jbalch - Posted - 05/24/2012: 12:02:10
I have two nylon-strung banjos: one fretted and one fretless. Both have Bill Rickard Dobson tone rings. I think the tone ring adds a really nice dimension to these banjos and recommend you consider it as an oprion.
The fretless banjo is a rare Bart Reiter 12" internal resonator model. It was original with only a simple brass hoop ring. I added the Dobson (plus a smaller brass hoop underneath for proper height). The change may have increased volume a little (insignificant). But it surely enhanced the tone. It is hard to describe tone ...but the Dobson ring adds a nice "warm" sustain to the finish of the note. Not too much ... just right IMHO. This was a very good banjo before the Rickard tone ring ... it is AWESOME now. (see photos)
The Fretted banjo is by Wayne Sagmoen - it was ordered originally with the Dobson ring installed. Great banjo too! I don't have sound samples of the fretless (sorry). But I'll attach a couple of samples of the Sagmoen banjo.
Best wishes!
Edited by - jbalch on 05/24/2012 12:07:59
leemysliwiec - Posted - 05/24/2012: 13:53:07
quote:
Originally posted by wolpert
So, in general people don't use tone rings on fretless banjos? I thought the one I played had a wood tonering on it, but I could be wrong.
Mine has a 3/4 in thick rim but the top 1/4 inch is rounded to a 1/4 inch diameter and that serves as a tone ring. Generally, listeners can't even tell that an additional tone ring is missing. As someone stated on another post, tone rings originally were added to help get a good sound from a Skin head. I could be wrong, and frequently am. If you use a mylar head you may not need one. There is a lot of personal preference involved with tone rings and sound.
erikforgod - Posted - 05/25/2012: 04:37:54
My gut feeling is wood works best with wood...why not a wooden tone-ring?
