R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 03/03/2012:  13:14:51

This is without a doubt a golden age for the banjo.  Through technology (videos, recordings, books, etc.) folks who would never have had the opportunity to learn or possibly even hear the banjo are now able to. 

So much more than music used to be communicated through the interaction of master and apprentice.  I wonder if something very valuable is being / has been lost?  Opinions?

banjotom2 - Posted - 03/03/2012:  13:30:10

I've been contacted by a few folks lately who have gotten tired of the 'record-wait-response' form of on-line banjo lessons...

They have, indeed, found a way to take the human element out of that type of lesson...

I would also suggest, that forums such as this allow people from all over the world to stay in touch and find out darned near everything that's going on banjo-wise in the world around them...

Far more information that I ever had...

I had to teach myself after studying guitar for years...

If you put it all in perspective, the folks that went before us, Earl Scruggs, Ralph Stanley and the many others... no television, no telephone, no radio, maybe no car, no computer, no cell phone, no iPod, iPad, whatever... none of the normal inhibitors had any effect at all, except perhaps to give them more time to practice their budding skills...

I've always been one to hang around the house... working on banjo, guitar, mandolin and fiddle... not to mention the years invested in drawing and other self-taught art skills...

I'd go out for a hike, a bicycle ride, a motorcycle ride... or take one of my former 4-wheel drive trucks out in the woods...

Come back home and go back to work on the hobbies and other interests that make life more enjoyable...

So... I really don't think we are losing the human element...

The world we live in isn't any more crazy now than it ever has been... and it's a person's desire to succeed, their inner fire, their will to live and enjoy life... that will propel them beyond even the craziest of obstacles... to achieve their goals...

I recently watched a YouTubed video of a man... born with no arms... that learned how to play guitar with his feet... better than some of my 'armed' friends... and sing at the same time...

Nothing will stop you if you want to succeed...

"Faith as small as a mustard seed"...

Is all it takes...

Tom

hum - Posted - 03/03/2012:  13:35:42

Very well put Tom!

Bill H - Posted - 03/03/2012:  14:17:59

On line sites like You Tube and this site have opened a whole new world to me. When I taught myself claw hammer 30 some years ago I had never heard claw hammer played and I never met another claw hammer player in person. I just knew I liked it. I'm sure claw hammer players exist somewhere in NH, but mostly the folks I found to play with were folk guitar players. Okay for practicing chords, but not a good fit with what I was truly interested in. I had a few books and instructional records, and not much else to go on.

Now with all that's available on the web at no cost, I've learned more tunes and improved my playing more in the past three or four years than the twenty-five before that. It's gone from isolation to being part of an active community of people who are generous with their time and knowledge. 

raybob - Posted - 03/03/2012:  15:12:11

Well.. the music IS being carried on.  Some folks that were fortunately enough to learn from past generations have been sharing what they learned and stories from those days at festivals, and clinics etc.  I, for one, appreciate being around this kind of thing.  On one level, though, once the younger generation is exposed we have to trust that they'll carry it forward as best they can.  Since the music existed before the means to record it ever did this question has undoubtedly been posed in the past.  I think we've probably done a fair job of it getting it to this point in the 21st century.

Good question.

whyteman - Posted - 03/03/2012:  15:16:53

I agree with Mr. Lunceford to the extent that I even question now and then if being a part of this virtual community at BHO is really a good thing.

Had all of this techno stuff existed when I started back in 1976, I probably would not have sought out the teacher who got me started. Our one-on-one lessons "imprinted" his teaching/playing style into my musical personality and, I feel gave me a bit of an idea of what my banjo identity would be.

There is also a degree of sadness to me in the loss of mystery due to how quickly the mechanics of a tune can be sought out on the 'net. It used to be a major accomplishment requiring the use of your imagination to figure out how some elder was playing a tune on a scratchy recording.

And, as with the diminishing returns of satisfaction of a lot of technology, the technology itself can cause alienation and depression and a withdrawl from the real world.

It is a concern, not merely a case of Luddite Technophobia.

Postscript/editorial: the internet has made it easier for people to hookup for the giant "banjo camps" which have proliferated. I'm not so so sure that these "hookups" are too much better than the other use of the term "hookups". I think the net-driven banjo camps have contributed to the generic clawhammer approach. Feel free to disagree.


Don

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 03/03/2012:  15:55:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by whyteman





 

And, as with the diminishing returns of satisfaction of a lot of technology, the technology itself can cause alienation and depression and a withdrawl from the real world.



It is a concern, not merely a case of Luddite Technophobia.





Don

---

 "Luddite Technophobia"......  I love it !!!   I was about to say; "Enroll me in the ranks of the neo-Luddites", but here I am typing it on an on-line forum!!!

I think the whole thing is a double-edged sword, but then technological advances always seem to be.  For everything gained, something else is lost.  I think your points about alienation, depression, and withdrawal are quite apt.  I once visited my Dad's best boyhood friend on his farm (north of Salisbury, MO), and he complained about TV virtually ending folks dropping by and visiting.  

I you don't mind my asking Don, who was your teacher?  Did you know Jim Olin from St. Louis maybe?  I never met him, but was once given a tape (guess I should appreciate that technology!) of him playing "Paddy Roller"... some of the most powerful banjo-playing I've yet to hear.

redsroost - Posted - 03/03/2012:  15:57:19

WE are the lucky ones;we can enjoy the best of the old masters and choose to learn ,play, perform under
either or both; the old methods or new technology.We inherited the best of both worlds;past and present.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 03/03/2012:  16:03:55

I'm rather torn on the subject. While I can see the rise of a national "festival" style (perhaps global) that is rather hollow and disconnected from the roots of old time, I recognize that not everyone has the talent or ambition to make a mark in music, and there are so many thousands of people having fun that it can't be All bad, can it? I know that I have as much fun in a "Festival" style jam as any other, why should I deny the value of a human connection that can create vast open fields full of people all, essentially Groking the music in pretty much the manner Heinline described back in 1966. He only thought about sex though. The poor man wasn't a musician. How was he to know the joys of an Old Time Jam?

I also suspect that we are now in a phase that will itself fade in another quarter century. Those of us who have actually met the real old timers (from the early days of recording the music), or at least seen them play at a festival or coffeehouse, will be mostly gone by then, and among the people who are coming up, some will continue to do as many do now, listening only to the latest recordings of the hottest new groups, while others will return to the earliest recordings of OTM - or at least Older recordings. I suspect there will be specialists in various eras or specific regions who channel their playing through a filter of "The Skillet Lickers", "The New Lost City Ramblers", "The Hollow Rock Band", Ritchie Stearn's OT Ska Groups, etc. They won't necessarily play only the repertoire of their various heros, but every tune they play will be informed by that style. There will also be those who consider themselves to be completely free of all historic influence, and are out creating new OT styles (Like Ritchie) and there will be others (like me) who simply let everything they've ever heard all goes into the sausage machine to make up their own style.

I think the golden age of Old Time Music started when Ralph Peer set up a studio in Bristol Tenn. and it will continue for as long as there are people interested in playing this hard to define home made music.

Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 03/03/2012 16:09:29

banjoak - Posted - 03/03/2012:  16:10:58

Interesting question.

I'm not sure if anything is "lost" through modern technology. It's just not likely to be found through those means. The availability human contact does go away. 

I would say that a noticeable part of this interaction shift though is in a form of learning. The old traditional way was a very (for lack of better terms) right-brained approach. The modern methodologies and technology, tend to be very-left brain approach. The left brain approach puts primary (first) focus on the quantitative. Whereas the right-brain approach introduces early on much more of the the aspects (and the importance) that cannot be easily quantified, the qualitative essence of the music.

Much has to do with our left-brain oriented education system most grew up with. So you get folks who learn with less human interaction, (books, recordings, videos, internet) and some believe that's all they need. But when they get to playing in the real world, they might realize that they missed something important, or misinterpreted, and that comes from human interaction and feedback of the real world. Some of it comes from consuming the music, experiencing it, taking it in, living and breathing the music rather than abstractly thinking about the music as following a set of instructions. 

That said, I think the availability of human interaction is greater than it's ever been.

aeroweenie - Posted - 03/03/2012:  16:29:02

I think the web and other communications technology is a good thing, at least from a musical standpoint.  If it took away from person-to-person musical interaction, I would be worried.  Are there fewer teachers, jams, festivals, etc. as a result of web technology?  I think not.

I would argue that the recording industry and radio has had an adverse effect in that they gave rise to a pop music culture.  I doubt that existed in the 1850s but I could well be wrong.  However, like the internet, they certainly made a wide variety of music more accessible.

In any case, this is all moot because we cannot put the genie back in the bottle.  How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

strokestyle - Posted - 03/03/2012:  16:49:13

  Warning: Long post with possibly multiple grammar and spelling errors. If your a English major look past your field of expertise, it is readable anyway.

  There are still people out there that are learning from a mentor as a sole means of learning, without the influences and or with little influence from technology.  In my world, it is impossible for me to not have a computer and see some of what is out there, so I am under the little influence area.

   I have listened to a few videos, a few recordings, two workshops and had a few lessons from Jim Eyman and Tom Faux. You may have read my other post about how I met Billy Mathews, my mentor so I will try to not repeat myself. This post is not easy to put into a few short arrangements and I will leave out much.

  I am now in the beginning of my 7^th year of having a banjo. I was 45 years old when that banjo came in the door. Never had I played a stringed instrument so learning to use my fretting fingers separately, form shapes and use force will plague me forever. I started out with finger picks and bluegrass video, I was afraid to go and take lessons from anyone to learn cause I felt so inadequate and just wanted to “get somewhere” without any audience or pressure. That lasted a short few months, during that time I was given an album “The Philo Glee and Mandolin Society”. I knew what I wanted to learn from there. I really had no idea about the involved processes players go threw to learn, seek out people and so forth and can truly say that I was very innocent starting with this instrument. I heard of Banjo Jim Eyman a master Old Style banjo player, living in my town. I could write a few chapters up to this point and many more in between my sentences throughout this post, but I will spare you from that, even though my full story is rather entertaining. I found Jim and met with him about once a week for several months before Billy took me on. These two characters Billy and Jim have a very long history in this Old Time field and continue to have deeply rooted opinions. They actually took responsibility and decided to form my learning experience in accordance with how they felt I could become an unadulterated player in a modern age. I found out later that this was an undertaken topic for them, another chapter there. Their influence on me is and was so very strong that I would follow them off a cliff, happily. I became a focus for Billy and he a focus for me. For the next 6 years 95% of my listening and learning would come from Billy and his recording. Billy tells me I am his last banjo student and he has turned out some wonderful musicians, he now encourages me to be the instructor.  A shining example of one of Billy’s best students is Colin Blair. I can’t fill shoes as big as Colin’s I can only be what I can. It takes a whole lot of hard work and tremendous patience to work with a player such as me, with little too no background and limitations in the working of my maturing hands.

  Throughout this ongoing process Billy has cleverly taught me in ways no video, book or paper could. Assessing my level of saturation and correcting the flow of information to get the best result. He has an amazing and uncanny sense of when and how to present the fabric of learning to get through to my wee little brain.  He travels much and lives quite far away so whatever time we can spend banjoing is always precious. Billy has helped me to learn life lessons unrelated to the banjo. I never knew I needed to know about how to slow down, become happier, lead a simpler life and most important; living without something makes you appreciate what you have and helps you not want for something you should not or cannot have. I see life a bit different than I did BB (before Billy). This whole banjo thing has been a marked milestone in my existence. 

  We started off with the monkey see monkey do banjo playing. I can still remember the day Billy put his banjo down and picked up his fiddle and said now your going to play to my fiddle. I was shocked and scared. How could I play without being shown what to do, how could this happen? I felt like I would never get anywhere after that point. But he was right to expand my thinking and learn that I could play something without being shown exactly how he would do it. It didn’t have to be right or correct or perfect.  I just had to begin the process of thinking for myself. He knew when that time came I did not. I have a remarkable amount to learn ahead of me. I will continue this banjo journey chapter by chapter.

 Please do not feel that I think my way is better or more correct than any way a person learns. I blindly fell into learning this way. People learn different, they have limitations in how they can gather information and many players have learned to play way faster than I could ever and cover more difficult territory because of their chosen learning experience. I want all players to feel comfortable in how they move forward. It is not about who can do what, how fast, do they sound the way they want, is their banjo the right banjo for them, who to listen and idolize. To me it’s about the journey, the people, kinship, the experience and the sense that your footprint is bigger cause you affect the world in a musical light. Something I have come to find very dear to my heart.

RD your a romantic sort of fellow, keep doing what your doing. I would never have spoke up but for some of your thought provoking inspirations. I just wish those players out there today that are learning from influences other than media could speak here also and give you more of the insights that you seek.

DoubleG - Posted - 03/03/2012:  16:50:39

Picking this music up later in life I will never know the pioneers and can only access them now through you guys here, books, and recordings. But I also have a great teacher that knows the history and is excited by those early players. He has played with and recorded with some of the best in the generation that followed the pioneers and has a great respect for the past. However, even if I was not blessed with such an influence there are those of us who pick this up and are hooked for life. Remember too, lot's of people pick this music up but many will also fall away (the rocky soil, thorns, and fine soil illustration). This music will last as long as there are those who keep playing it and are willing to pass it along.

Edited by - DoubleG on 03/03/2012 16:54:39

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 03/03/2012:  19:33:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by strokestyle

 

  Throughout this ongoing process Billy has cleverly taught me in ways no video, book or paper could...   He travels much and lives quite far away so whatever time we can spend banjoing is always precious. Billy has helped me to learn life lessons unrelated to the banjo. I never knew I needed to know about how to slow down, become happier, lead a simpler life and most important; living without something makes you appreciate what you have and helps you not want for something you should not or cannot have. I see life a bit different than I did BB (before Billy). This whole banjo thing has been a marked milestone in my existence... 

 

 ...To me it’s about the journey, the people, kinship, the experience and the sense that your footprint is bigger cause you affect the world in a musical light. Something I have come to find very dear to my heart...

 

---

 That's what I'm talkin' about.  A fabulous post Christine.  You're truly lucky to have found Billy and vice-versa.  I know that the music you have learned from Billy is a priceless possession, and something that will keep him in your mind and heart years from now.

Billy is a truly great banjoist.  I was honored by being asked to write a review of his banjo recording The Ghost of Banjo Billy for The Old-Time Herald which can read by going here: 

 banjobilly.net/Ghost_Review.htm#ghost    

and clicking on the pages dispayed on the right.

bohemian - Posted - 03/03/2012:  20:34:28

Music is a form of communication.  Generally "speaking",  communication with others has gone from face to face to facebook to facebook and is a cartoon  of communication.  Certainly books and cd's and DVD's contribute greatly to the library of materials available to a learner.. but he/she is left with a one way communication.. a monologue . This might be empirically beneficial but spiritually deficient.

Years ago several friends got together monthly for a musical evening. Guitars, violins, banjos, mandolins, even nyckelharpa... there is a lot more to music than the notes. I see these events replaced by more organized "sessions" which usually evolve into an elite core where the communication is limited to the chosen few and the lingua franca is no longer of the people.  

I agree, something has been lost.. at least locally. Perhaps it still exists elsewhere.. I think maybe the Cajuns and Quebecois  still have it going.

pauwac - Posted - 03/04/2012:  06:07:55

This topic hits me where I live.  In America we are increasingly losing the ability to talk to each other.  Yesterday I was at a slam poetry event in Chicago, watching some kids from my school perform, and I had the nicest conversation with a total stranger, a lady who just wandered in and liked what she saw.  Interactions like this, at least in my busy life, are rare, but I have made a vow to seek them out from here on.  Regarding music, I suggest that all of us make a determined effort to play with others as frequently as possible.  I play with two old guys on Friday nights--it's not exactly always what I want musically, but it's always interesting, it's forced me to grow as a musician by adapting to the tastes and talents of others, and the three of us have become friends.  One of my favorite artists is Tim Kerr (check him out) and his motto is PARTICIPATE.

Corwyn - Posted - 03/04/2012:  06:44:24

When I first got myself a banjo, was back in 1987.  The only things on the Internet were newsgroups, and email.  I don't remember ANY banjo information.  In order to learn, I bought books.  Finding tabs was a matter of hunting through tables of contents in the few banjo books at the music store.  Human interaction: minimal.

I was unable to get very far, and when my Banjo was stolen, I couldn't justify replacing it.

Later, my family bought me one for Christmas, and I started the process over.  Now there was a world wide web, videos, the Banjo Hangout, etc.  I am getting better at playing, and getting more human interaction.

For me, I am getting far more;  anything lost I would never have had an opportunity to experience.

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 03/04/2012:  08:20:39

I have approximately 99% more human interaction about the banjo here at the Banjo Hangout than I have had in person most of my life. For most of my life I was pretty much the only clawhammer, two finger-picking, banjo player I knew. So for me, the Internet has significantly boosted the human interaction I have about the banjo.

On the other hand, the highlight of my week is the Friday night open stage that I run that is mostly populated by college students. I heavily encourage collaboration and jamming, and i get the opportunity to play music with a varied and very talented bunch of young musicians. It matters not to me that almost none of them have any knowledge of or exposure to "old time" music ... we're all adaptable and able to enjoy a wide variety of different types of music, both for listening and for collaborating. This past Friday I encouraged a classically trained violinist who generally plays a sort of gypsy jazz style these days to sit in with a guy playing something that might best be described as something of a cross between Goth and Punk on an acoustic guitar. It was a great collaboration... a sound none of us had ever heard before.

So, in summary, I gained a lot of contact about the banjo per se through the Internet - contact that I never had before - but that's in addition to, not a substitution for, human contact with other musicians, playing together.

minstrelmike - Posted - 03/04/2012:  08:23:59

I think of master-apprentice as the standard for professional playing, not playing around the house with friends and family.

The entire _folk_ tradition is different from the professional business of playing music for money.

I don't believe the majority of people playing folks music thru the ages learned in a master-apprentice way.

I do suspect the majority learned live via a teacher but 'apprenticeship' in my book is a 2-7 year commitment, kind of like going thru music school like Julliard.

in other words, we ain't lost nothing. We've gained folk musicians because of the internet.

In fact, we may even be back to where we were in the 1800s where if you wanted to listen to music regularly, chances are it was going to be 'home made.'

minstrelmike - Posted - 03/04/2012:  08:26:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by pauwac

This topic hits me where I live.  In America we are increasingly losing the ability to talk to each other.  Yesterday I was at a slam poetry event in Chicago, watching some kids from my school perform, and I had the nicest conversation with a total stranger, a lady who just wandered in and liked what she saw.  Interactions like this, at least in my busy life, are rare, but I have made a vow to seek them out from here on. ...

---

So you aren't talking to strangers on the internet?

You do know everybody here already?

The internet has increased our interactions with strangers, not decreased them. imo.

banjoholic - Posted - 03/04/2012:  11:18:34

I think what the success of sites like this one shows is how much we do crave human interaction, and how much we value what we get of it on this site.

To illustrate, imagine that today you're told that you're the only live human on the banjohangout, and that all the other members are just artificial simulations. Even though nothing about the site would be any different to you, would you still come back tomorrow?

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 03/04/2012:  11:25:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoholic

I think what the success of sites like this one shows is how much we do crave human interaction, and how much we value what we get of it on this site.

To illustrate, imagine that today you're told that you're the only live human on the banjohangout, and that all the other members are just artificial simulations. Even though nothing about the site would be any different to you, would you still come back tomorrow?

---

Well I'll say this: Some of those simulations sure can simulate great banjo playing on the Hangout Jukebox!

Supertone - Posted - 03/04/2012:  14:25:01

For what it is worth, I feel like moving to the south has been the most important, valuable thing that I have ever done for my musical education. If one is interested in southern vernacular music, there is only so much that you can gain from listening to records, visiting youtube or checking in to the banjo forum. Hearing the accent, eating the food, being around musicians that come from the true vine of the tradition...all of those kinds of experiences are invaluable in my opinion to getting a deep understanding of the music and perhaps more importantly, the people and the culture. Now, I won't claim to be any kind of a player, but being down here has made me all the more aware of how much I didn't know despite devoting years to the study of southern folk music. While I have not apprenticed myself out to any one older player, I think my exposure to the culture has improved my abilities as a musician.

In terms of the craft of playing music, being around great players has been helpful and inspiring. You can see how how a great player looks when they address their instrument. You can hear the real tone of the instrument. You can hear how loud someone plays. I don't think you can really get any of this from a recording or video.

 

jojo25 - Posted - 03/04/2012:  17:05:32

interesting thread RD...as always from you...and I concur that Christine's post was good...being able to learn from a master (and I think Billy rates being called a master), is very rare these days...Christine is lucky in that regard, but she is also to be commended for the enormous amount of her time, energy and treasure that she has/is putting into her apprenticeship...very few of us in the OT scene take that route these days...certainly not for the very long term as Christine has

sure I'd rather have learned at the feet of Tommy Jarrell...but I'm damn glad I have music in my life and the friends I share it with...even if there is/was no master in my life..have I missed something of value...probably...but I feel that I am long past worrying about that

I say use the technology...but try not to let it use you...work to play live with people as much as possible...but if your circumstances find you isolated from opportunities to play live with others...well...internet away my friends...its all good...but never stop trying to find the human element in your music

ChuckS - Posted - 03/04/2012:  17:38:20

Without all the techno stuff, I never would have found the banjo or the music.  

I wish I could find a local mentor, but have had no luck yet.  Nearest I can find is about 2 hours away- essentially out of reach for me.  I am missing the connection.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 03/04/2012:  21:19:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by Supertone

For what it is worth, I feel like moving to the south has been the most important, valuable thing that I have ever done for my musical education. If one is interested in southern vernacular music, there is only so much that you can gain from listening to records, visiting youtube or checking in to the banjo forum. Hearing the accent, eating the food, being around musicians that come from the true vine of the tradition...all of those kinds of experiences are invaluable in my opinion to getting a deep understanding of the music and perhaps more importantly, the people and the culture. Now, I won't claim to be any kind of a player, but being down here has made me all the more aware of how much I didn't know despite devoting years to the study of southern folk music. While I have not apprenticed myself out to any one older player, I think my exposure to the culture has improved my abilities as a musician.

In terms of the craft of playing music, being around great players has been helpful and inspiring. You can see how how a great player looks when they address their instrument. You can hear the real tone of the instrument. You can hear how loud someone plays. I don't think you can really get any of this from a recording or video.

 

---

 I agree completely.  One of the best things I ever did for my playing was moving to the Ozarks.  It's the sort of place where the music just rises up from the ground.  Being in a place like that can't help but influence you.  It's feeling and atmosphere... something you can't get in touch with anywhere else.

There are great players with no connection to those sorts of places.  What we are talking about though is something that is not part of the music, but instead, what the music is part of. 

erikforgod - Posted - 03/05/2012:  04:26:56

I have approximately 99% more human interaction about the banjo here at the Banjo Hangout than I have had in person most of my life. For most of my life I was pretty much the only clawhammer, two finger-picking, banjo player I knew. So for me, the Internet has significantly boosted the human interaction I have about the banjo.

Marc Nuremberg



I for one can certainly relate to Marcs statement, Even though I am a "gringo with Kentucky roots" I live in Argentina...with virtually no access to any OT music unless by you-tube, online or anywhere else. Of course there is nothing like being able to have contact like some of you guys here did with either some of the "greats" or folks that had close contact with them, without the BHO and the internet I am not sure I would have fallen into playing OT banjo right now. My wife for one, she had never even heard or seen or "touched" a banjo her entire life until I showed up and started playing and listening to stuff on you-tube and the BHO...only on TV in a few obscure movies that arrived here in Argentina after the military dictatorship fell after the Falklands War had she seen or heard a banjo...so for her its something completely new...and she really likes it. So imagine this...through places like the BHO and the internet...true american culture and music is being spread and appreciated worldwide. I wonder if the Jarrels and Cockerhams and Holcombs and Ashleys of the past ever thought that or could see this far ahead...its truly wonderful in my opinion. It gives me an opportunity to share with Argentines that the banjo is a piece of "real americana" and not Hollywood or "Reality-TV" or "The Simpsons" like so many of them think is american culture. Did I get off topic? sorry..LOL didnt mean to digress!

Edited by - erikforgod on 03/05/2012 04:31:30

whyteman - Posted - 03/05/2012:  07:01:35

Yes, R. D., Jim Olin was great, and I might add, a tormented genious. One of the first albums I purchased was the Missouri Corn Dodgers Lp . I'm told that the Davis Unlimited label material is back in print. I saw the Dodgers perform once and I might add that Julia Hagar was a great ballad singer in the tradition of Almeda Riddle.

I did not know Jim Olin, and although I'm no genious, I understand his demons all too well. I so wish he was still with us.

My teacher was the legendary Bluegrass banjo player, Jon Tickner, the banjo player of the legendary Bluegrass band The Road Apples. (The very best stringband name...ever!!!!!). And that's no horses**t. Jon was a great downpicker as well as a fine and patient teacher.

The "imprinting" that I speak of is this: Jon played all styles on his Mastertone. He downpicked over the head with a clear bright sound. I'm absolutely certain that this "one to one" exposure caused me to gravitate towards my own subconcious tendancy to play over the head and to prefer a loud, bright sound and to not be too fond of nylon strings. As the twig is bent...

Thanks for asking and bringing back memories, bittersweet and otherwise of Jim and Jon.

Don

fiddlemike - Posted - 03/05/2012:  10:08:24

Playing music is playing music. How you go about learning to operate your chosen instrument is completely irrelevant. There will always be people who are not happy with just playing, but will insist that it must be learned a certain way or that you must genuflect before the music gods every morning if you want to be a great player or some other silliness. They are invariably full of BS. BHO and the Internet are tools that give us greater access to the collective musical experience. Only a foolish person discards a tool that is not broken or attempts to use it to solve every problem. Adjust your perception the human element is inescapable.

Colinski - Posted - 03/05/2012:  10:24:41

The internet is just another tool. It's made an enormous amount of information and experience available to people looking for it. I would contend that there are more people playing old-time music now than there have been, well, possibly ever (given population increases and the fact that there are old-time scenes of varying sizes all over the world now). I would also contend that there are more people attending more old-time music festivals and jams than ever before as well. So I would say it's bringing people together -- the human element. During the 50s/60s folk revival, lots of people learned off books and records rather than teachers, but they then took that music and shared it with other and they helped keep the music alive and vibrant. So what exactly is different now? Without technological increases, this music would never have left Appalachia in the first place.

bd - Posted - 03/05/2012:  10:28:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlemike

Playing music is playing music. How you go about learning to operate your chosen instrument is completely irrelevant. There will always be people who are not happy with just playing, but will insist that it must be learned a certain way or that you must genuflect before the music gods every morning if you want to be a great player or some other silliness. They are invariably full of BS. BHO and the Internet are tools that give us greater access to the collective musical experience. Only a foolish person discards a tool that is not broken or attempts to use it to solve every problem. Adjust your perception the human element is inescapable.

---

I don't think anyone's suggesting there's only ONE way. And accusing people of being full of BS and the like is just gonna get their back up not persuade 'em.

Bart McNeil - Posted - 03/05/2012:  10:30:56

Please explain how humans can lose the human element....
Or a dog can lose the dog element....
Or a tree can lose the tree element....

We don't change because we lost the human element... We change because we are humans.

RG - Posted - 03/05/2012:  11:03:44

R.D. - I think there has been some loss of tradition in the internet/digital media age.  The internet is fine and good, a humongous repository of great, as well as worthless, technique, knowledge, ephemera & trivia, but for this music nothing comes close to playing in person and exchanging musical ideas be it in private lessons, a jam, live performance, workshop, festival or the like.  I love the internet (particularly youtube) for what I can find that would otherwise be lost (video of Dink Roberts, Lucius Smith, Dock Boggs, Tommy Jarrell, John Rector etc.), but what really gets my musical creativity revving is jamming, talking and just hanging out physically with folks who like the same tunes & songs that I do and playing until my fingers hurt.     

I understand it's tough for folks like Erik who don't have lot's of OT musicians living around, but to me the greatest link that the internet provides to the time tested way of transferring and preserving this music in the traditional manner is the ability to take a skype or internet lesson were you can have a discussion or exchange of musical ideas etc. between 2 (or more) living, breathing, human beings...and besides, I really don't like playing along with CD's or my computer because neither drinks beer...

Christine's (strokestyle) post was really good, but I think Marc Nerenberg expressed it most succinctly (for any type of music really) in his post when he said...

"So, in summary, I gained a lot of contact about the banjo per se through the Internet - contact that I never had before - but that's in addition to, not a substitution for, human contact with other musicians, playing together."

I agree...

Edited by - RG on 03/05/2012 11:09:17

banjoak - Posted - 03/05/2012:  13:56:48

Good posts above. I can though see how technology (not just the internet) changes some aspects of human interaction. In the way old days, you played music with who you could, who was close enough; in turn, perfection and true to some previous styling was not always going to be achieved. So players (even good ones) adapted what they played, so as to create music with others. Making the best of it. Much had to do with limits. As well, before recordings to go back to, the authoritative "right way" it goes was much more in the hands of the in the now player deciding. I think all of that led to creativity. As well the only way to hear the music was in a live in the moment context, (which often also involved a social context).

Now musicians don't really have to deal with as much of those limits. Not as bound by geography, past, whether the person is now dead, or having to deal with some other musicians skill or ideas.

Clodhopper - Posted - 03/05/2012:  14:00:07

As others have said, the internet is largely responsible for my discovering and being able to immerse myself in this great music.  Not only have I gotten a lot of information directly from the internet, and to a large extent BHO, but it has also brought me into direct contact with some really great and generous OT players who have helped me immensely.  I have a long way to go still, but I might not even be on this journey if it wasn't for the net.

ScottK - Posted - 03/05/2012:  17:51:54

For my part, I was attracted to playing old time music precisely because of the human element, the element of community.  I started attending monthly square dances in the early 2000’s with Bill Martin calling and Foghorn Stringband playing and observed a small vibrant community of friends that I wanted to become part of.  Square dancing provided an easy way to begin participating in that community.  But the musicians were obviously having more fun since they could play music at home, at jams, and at house parties in between the dances.  So I took up the banjo.  And a few years later, the fiddle.

I learned to play old time music with a mix of books, recordings, workshops, classes, camps, festivals, jams, and eventually a two-year stint as banjo player in a string band with a weekly pub gig.  I never had an ongoing teacher so I can’t comment on what I’ve missed through that regular interaction, musically or otherwise.  But there was a lot of human element those other experiences.  It has been great to experience folk like Mike Seeger and Reed Martin in workshops, hear their stories, see and hear them play their music.  It has also been great to develop friendships through the local old time music scene and the broader old time festival scene.  Those friendships form my community now.  Several folk in that community have gotten married, some have had kids, some have grown up, some have moved away, some have moved back, some have died.  Various groups of us gather on a regular basis to eat together, dance together, camp together, make music together, laugh together, share one another’s stories and struggles. 

After the Portland Old Time Music Gathering a couple months ago I posted a note reflecting on the amazing journey of friendship that old time music has become for me.  This weekend I was in Astoria on the Oregon coast helping my son work on the fixer-upper house that he recently bought.  Halfway through the weekend he remembered that he had a present for me.  Turns out that some of the young folk from Bellingham who stayed with me during the gathering had made me a thank-you gift and sent it down via my son.  It was really cute.  They had hand-sewn a little rag doll man with a little rag doll fiddle and a little rag doll banjo and a little rag doll guitar.  The thank-you note said it was a Clyde Davenport doll.    That’s my kind of human element! 

Scott

mojo_monk - Posted - 03/05/2012:  18:24:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by ScottK

 

They had hand-sewn a little rag doll man with a little rag doll fiddle and a little rag doll banjo and a little rag doll guitar.  The thank-you note said it was a Clyde Davenport doll.    That’s my kind of human element! 

Scott

---

Great story, Scott.

Picture???

 

-Sean

deineko - Posted - 03/06/2012:  07:29:03

thanks to technology (Internet, youtube, DVD, mp3..., you name it) now more folks play (or learn to play) music than ever...
and this makes a larger audience than ever who can appreciate music... and I think this makes us all better humans... or I want to believe so...

tunemakers - Posted - 03/06/2012:  13:29:51

I recently inherited a very old and used laptop that has changed my practice habits in a way I would never had imagined it could. Now I can sit in my most comfortable chair, tune into the "Old Time Jam" and I get to play tunes I never knew existed as often as I would like. And almost every day new tunes appear and the list grows on and on. The machine plays until my fingers and hands are sore and my wife has long ago left and locked herself in her sound proof bedroom.
For me, in a perfect world, I would have a group of musicians in my living room ready at a moments notice to begin and then stop playing as my whim dictated. They would have to be better musicians than I am and they would have to be willing to put up with my constant stumbling and musically stuttering. Since that isn't an option, the electronic version will do nicely.
That being said, the reason I sit here and practice in my alone-ness is with the goal of actually being able to sit with real humans and produce reasonably good, real live music.
I like the tool concept....tools are not good or bad....just tools.

ScottK - Posted - 03/06/2012:  14:42:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by mojo_monk

 

Great story, Scott.

Picture???

 

---

  

Thanks Sean.  Here's a photo:

Scott

banjopogo - Posted - 03/06/2012:  17:58:06

I was a pretty decent banjo player and fiddler when I went to visit an old guy that played both.
The visit did a number of things for me.
It might have helped me get a fiddle bowing down better but I think I was already onto that because I'd seen him play at Galax.

Other things that it did for me.

1. He liked my fiddling- that affirmation helped me a LOT.
2. I learned something about the culture that the music came out of
3. It helped me understand that mountain music is fiercely individualistic, and if you were to copy anyone too closely,
you might be true to the notes, but it wouldn't be true to the spirit or attitude of the music.
Somehow you have to forge your own personal style out the elements you like best in other players.

There is a West Virginian who moved into town to be near his son and grandkids. He plays banjo and harmonica.
It's a similar thing. The affirmation is HUGE... if your playing is Old Time enough for mountain people, then you can stop sweating it, and relax and enjoy the music. There is also an influence on attitude. This particular fellow likes Bluegrass and Old Time BOTH.... and that makes me thing I ought to too. It's all acoustic mountain music!
And I've learned other things about the culture, and it's nice to have someone you can ask questions that KNOWS what it was like in Virginia and West Virginia 70 years ago!

voodoo_science - Posted - 03/08/2012:  11:30:24

Well, it's actually very easy for me to answer to this thread:

I think I can understand the nostalgia some feel about Old Time music, times when banjos were played by folks in town every Saturday night or so. The gathering, the experience of watching old timers play, etc. However, in my case the matter is simple: without the internet banjo and clawhammer would simply not exist for me. Without the internet I wouldn't have heard a banjo play; I wouldn´t be able to hear to Wade Ward, Dock Boggs et al; I wouldn't be able to reach any teacher, even if I'm forced by Skype; and certainly I wouldn't have been able to even buy the instrument.

Still, I would love to have the opportunity of sitting around a campfire to play (when I'm able to play, that is), and listen to others play; even if it's only once in my lifetime.

strokestyle - Posted - 03/08/2012:  13:37:13

  This has been a wonderful read, thanks RD and all that have posted for sharing. The first time I spoke on the Internet was here on the hangout and looks like I have at least said 800+ things since then. I always feel funny talking on the net and often later wish I had just kept to myself. Intentions can be mistaken and or not understood. With this medium, we have friends that we may never meet or share time with. The net can be sociable, it can also be a bit too much for people that are not as outspoken or not interested in talking about themselves in the public airwaves and or have no need for controversy over an issue. I have read some threads that have gone south on a posting party (even when they do not deserve it) and that can make every person that reads that less likely to contribute. It is easier to bout someone with typed words, especially when they have not met in person or shared any good times with one another. It seems people even form mindsets of whether they would like someone or not, just by reading only a portion of what is said without knowing the whole scope or knowing the persons true being.

  The net as pointed out many times on the BHO, works to unite people throughout the globe with similar interests including socializing, learning and interacting. I would never have seen ScottK's little doll players had I not checked in.  It is always my hope that a higher level of tolerance for all people could be the mainstream no matter what the subject. For us here it is sharing through music and all the attachments that go along with that. I suspect we’ll all continue to work toward our personal goals, whether by close physical interaction or wired (or wireless these days) interface. I think we are united in many ways, especially cause we have the need and the want to be enhanced.

Paul R - Posted - 03/08/2012:  14:43:18

I don't know how relevant this is, but, reading the posts in this thread on the alienating nature of technology, I pictured the movie cliche of the prisoner and his woman on either side of the glass, putting their hands on the glass in an attempt to touch.

I look at the Net as a tool that facilitates our learning and advancing. Use it wisely and well, and you ought to improve. Part of that improvement should include taking what you've learned and using it in interactions with other people in a live (not on-line) situation. For some of us, that will mean jamming, performing solo, or playing in a band. For people like Erik, who aren't close to those particular social situations, it could be as simple as showing his wife what he learned today, or, eventually, playing for the child. Playing for the kid will, I'm sure, become a huge part of that interaction, if I have learned anything from Erik's posts.

Through BHO, I came to meet one of my "friends" here on BHO, who eventually came out to our jam. For both of us, I think, it was a rewarding personal interaction. It could only have happened through the Net and BHO.

My first use of the banjo was playing for the students in my classroom - part performing, part teaching music. There was no Internet, and contact with OT musicians was limited. But the little contact I had, through the Toronto Folklore Centre, was crucial. When the Centre folded, I was cut off from that contact. So, yes, nothing can replace the human factor. But some (sometimes a lot) of that factor does come through here on BHO.

DoubleG - Posted - 03/08/2012:  16:38:49

Through this site I found a builder (Bill Van Horn) who created my first custom banjo. Through the Internet I found a local workshop where i found a teacher. Before that I learned everything online -- from RSB, Tab sites, to YouTube. Personal interactions with both Bill and Mark facilitated by technology.

steve j. - Posted - 03/09/2012:  07:06:56

Way back whenI first started guitar,, a magazine just came out call " Guitar for the practicing musician" had tabs of popular songs of the time. I remember learning Rock You Like a Hurrican from it LOL
I really didnt know anybody who played much elec guitar,,, and at the time the teachers I knew of wanted to start you out reading twinkle twinkle little star.
This magazine helped. I can only imagine how nice it would have been with todays technology. It would take some of the "treasure hunt" away though
Steve

Common Tater - Posted - 03/09/2012:  10:50:11

I actually "stumbled" onto the banjo at the event of hearing my guitar teacher play the banjo when he didn't realize I was anywhere within earshot.

That was a long time ago.  It wasn't until some years later (and a move to Northern Virginia) that I realized that there were actually records (LPs) of people playing what I learned was called "Old Time Music".  Theretofore, I didn't know that the genre actually had a name.  It was simply the way I had believed that the banjo was played.  In the years since then, I've considerably broadened my scope by using as many of the "non-personal" formats as made sense: magazines, internet, etc..  Still, the contact that I value the most is the interpersonal one: me as teacher, me as student, me as just-a-listener at someone else's performance or me as a participant in a scheduled or impromptu jam.

The longer I live the more I have come to believe that our instrument - now in its second "glory days" - has the possibility of wider application than any of our predecessors ever imagined.

CT

Edited by - Common Tater on 03/09/2012 10:51:22

Bart McNeil - Posted - 03/12/2012:  09:41:51

I don't think the internet has increased the number of banjo players at all. And in fact it may have decreased the number.

Banjo music and banjo playing videos are so accessable that that there is little need to learn banjo yourself as you can hear and see it anytime you wish on your computer. We don't even have to buy many recordings to sustain interest.

I would suggest that in the late 19th and early 20th century there were so many banjo societies, guitar and other stringed instrument groups and string bands because there was no radio, no television and no computers. Folks had to create their own music and formed groups and societies to do so. It also increased social interaction of folks with similar interests...

With the advent of the computer we no longer need to leave our homes because everything is here. For many of us social interaction is just unnecessary... Myself included.

I live in a village of 400 folks. I am the only banjo player and one of only a few stringed instrument players; one accomplished guitarist and one professional cellest. There are probably a few piano players but I am not of aware of any other stringed instrument players, at least beyond high school age.

I think the computer has reduced the number of players even while making the information on instrument and playing more available.

Bart McNeil - Posted - 03/12/2012:  10:28:54

I know a very accomplished banjo player who had followed the Hangout for years but had never contributed to it. I felt that was a shame because he could have contributed much. In my case I find that contributing enhances my own learning experience. I have said a lot of dumb things and have been called on it several times... but that is OK, because I learn fastest through my mistakes and mis-statements. Sure it is embarassing but that is how I learn best.

I play normally several hours or more per day.... The reading and conversations and opinions of others enhances my banjo learning experience. With so much human interaction on this site for instance, I don't think it is possible to lose the "human element". And also 'cause most of us are human.