Jody Hughes - Posted - 02/24/2012:  19:28:27

After retrospect and some of my recent practice sessions I am left wondering why

banjo players don't start with the melody?  As in playing the melody notes one at a time with no rolls.  Much like a guitar or violinist would do.



I've been trying this with some of my younger students.  Proceeding to a version with rolls is much easier after they can pluck out the basic bare bones melody on one or two strings.



As silly as it seems, I could not have played the simple melody to "Cripple Creek" after learning the Scruggs arrangement.  It wasn't until after I heard Stringbean sing it that I knew what the actual melody was.  The same goes for "Lonesome Road Blues".  I just played the Scruggs up the neck version that I learned note for note. Looking back, what I SHOULD have done is got a version of someone SINGING the song and listened at it a million times.  I would have started with an easier version when it came to the banjo.



I see questions on here about "How come I can't make my arrangement sound like the song?"  It might be a rhythm problem.  Mostly I think it's because the person doesn't have the tune in there head good enough.

By that I mean you should be able to hum it without the instrument or play it one note at a time without rolls.

If you can't hear it clearly then your ear to hand connection is going to be full of static and so is your picking.

Instead it seems what some people do is work against the static.  They learn an arrangement despite not knowing the melody and are left wondering why it doesn't sound right.



Another example I can think of.  Grandfathers Clock-I was taught that tune and learned to play it without knowing what the melody was.  I could play the song, even make up variations on the tune but did not know the melody. It seems crazy how one could expand on a song without knowing the melody but it's true.  There was no "MY Grandfathers Clock was too large for the shelf", it was Open fourth string 2nd fret of the fourth string and so on.



I think SOME people are going about this all the wrong way.  The most important part is to listen to the tune and get it in your head. Get a couple versions of it, ones with words (if it has them).  It never fails I have students that don't even bother listening to the song they are trying to learn.  The ones that do progress much faster....OF COURSE!



To this day if I go to learn a complex jazz standard the first thing I do is go write one verse of the lyrics down and practice singing the thing.

It's MUCH more difficult to forget a song that you learn like this.  It's akin to learning a nursery rhyme.



I should note-I'm not talking about adhering to the melody so strictly that you can't displace it by a half of a beat or even a beat.  That is a common technique even when singing.  You can put the roll to the melody or vice-versa, it won't matter if you don't know the tune to start with.

 

Edited by - Jody Hughes on 02/26/2012 19:02:07

minstrelmike - Posted - 02/24/2012:  19:42:43

I kind of figured out Scruggs-style oppositely ;-)

Grandpa's Clock was when the light turned on for me but it was for exactly the reasons you talk about.

I "learned" FMB and Train 45 and some others.

Lots of kewl-sounding notes that were fun to play but none of them really songs in my mind.

Then I learned Grandfather's Clock from a Sonny Osborne tab.

I'd never heard it done as the hi-speed instrumental common to bluegrass.

I remembered the tune from 3rd grade and it was the first 3-finger arrangement I played where the tune really stood out.

But only because I already knew how to sing the words to the song.

Richard Dress - Posted - 02/24/2012:  20:02:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jody Hughes

I see questions on here about "How come I can't make my arrangement sound like the song?"  It might be a rhythm problem.  Mostly I think it's because the person doesn't have the tune in there head good enough.

 

---

I am with you on this, but I would add that if they don't have the tune in their head, they probably don't have the rhythm in their head either.

MOUNTAIN GOAT - Posted - 02/24/2012:  20:47:41

Well a student needs one other device. Scruggs rattles these off so fast, no beginner can pick up anything. It needs to be slowed down keeping it in tune. I have one of these devices coming. AT speed you are lost immediately if you are trying to grasp the song. Sometimes the slow versions are still too fast to really grasp it. We can't listen to a song 1,000 times before we start learning it. I do agree though, getting the song in your head first would be a huge help. Just do it at a speed that you can get it in your head.

Rich Weill - Posted - 02/24/2012:  20:57:49

If I don't know the song's words (or at least enough of them), I'm lost.  That's the way I remember how the song goes.  Even something like "Home Sweet Home," which everyone plays as as instrumental, fortunately has words for me to follow.  I also hear the chord progression through the words.

If I have to play a song I haven't played before, or haven't played in a long time, remembering key sections of the lyrics is what gets me started.

The rhythm and the chords may be the foundation of the song, but the melody, expressed in the words, is how I remember it.

banjologist - Posted - 02/25/2012:  00:05:09

I absolutely agree, with Jody & Richard. EG when I fiddle 'Bonaparte's Retreat' the boys like the lyrics open on the music-stand for our breaks, to remember 'where we are' as there's 3 parts to the melody.

Tam_Zeb - Posted - 02/25/2012:  01:42:17

Hi Jody

Janet Davies Splitting the Licks - Starts with picking out Melody Notes before she adds rolls

Murphy Henry - Plays through the melody before she starts teaching and sings melody notes as she teaches licks

Alan Munde - Plays through  the melody before he breaks up the licks and phrases to teach his lesson.

Geoff Hohwald - Plays through the melody then works through the TAB measure by measure, 

Most of the other instructional material I have follows this introductory pattern - 

Listen Lesson Listen Practice Listen... That's the way I study and practice.

I guess where students wrestle with the melody is probably because they skip over the LISTENING PART and get straight down to picking. Their focus is probability in picking the right strings and  not listening for the melody

When I am learning a lick, a phrase or a tune I will listen to it many times over as I work my way through the lesson.

If I am working with TAB and I am maybe struggling to get the sound right on a measure or two. I will type it into TablEdit and play it as a midi sound. It isn't perfect but it is a guide...

Kevin B - Posted - 02/25/2012:  04:15:43

Good topic.  I think breaking down the melody notes and then emphasizing them while complementing them with fills for the proper rythm is wise advice.  I just wish I could do that better.

banjoholic - Posted - 02/25/2012:  04:51:52

I agree this is absolutely essential to a developing player, and fundamental to anyone's success with Scruggs style. Learning from a fully developed Scruggs arrangement is like trying to learn to paint like da Vinci by memorizing each individual pixel in the Mona Lisa. It's not only harder, but it teaches you nothing about how to paint/create something yourself in that style.

When learning any particular style, ideally we should go through the same creative process as its creator. Scruggs most certainly started with melody, then set that in his style (which for him was a particular sound, not a pattern of finger movements). Even thinking in terms of "rolls", imo, can be stifling, as these were generated by post-hoc analysis of Scruggs's playing.

Fathand - Posted - 02/25/2012:  07:16:52

I like to find the chords first and strum them if I have to or vamp and sing along to get the melody with my voice. This will give me the back up and I could then play along with others.  I can then add melody notes.

minstrelmike - Posted - 02/25/2012:  07:20:51

For needing the song in your head, I think many folks need to rethink their interpretation of Earl's story about walking around the house to practice timing with his brother.

That means he specifically did _not_ use a metronome.

(Even turning on a metronome then walking away playing and coming back to check your timing isn't the same thing because you could be off by one or two clicks and would never know it.)

So _what_ exactly was Earl referring to to keep his timing on track?

I say he had the song in his head so even when he messed up his own finger timing, the song in his head was still going on as usual.

dougzbanjo - Posted - 02/25/2012:  08:11:27

Thats kind of why I like Jack Hatfield's books. He has the whole song, with the melody notes in bold. You can pick those notes a little louder, and the melody comes out for you. For someone new to the banjo, and bluegrass, this is very helpful.

Richard Dress - Posted - 02/25/2012:  08:44:44

I have tried tab with the bold notes but I couldn't read tab, play, and emphasize all at the same time.  How do you do that?  It seems like a good idea, but has anybody made it actually work?

minstrelmike - Posted - 02/25/2012:  08:50:18

I've made the bold melody note tab work, but only by doing the same thing I do with most tunes.

I play just the bolded melody notes, not the rest of the rolls, to get the song in my head.

Then I try the tab as written but modify any weird measures it so it fits my preferred rolls, and play the tune so it's a tune to me.



Lastly, I try the actual tab as written and see which parts I like, either for that song or just in general.

But I can't just do someone else's arrangement as is the first time thru and have the melody drop out of my fingers because my brain and my fingers and my musical attitude aren't necessarily the same as theirs.

Richard Dress - Posted - 02/25/2012:  09:04:40

That makes sense.  I was trying to all three at the same time.

Rich Weill - Posted - 02/25/2012:  09:27:19

I've found that when I start with rolls over the chord progression as my foundation, it's easier to make the melody stand out.  Why?  Because, having already established the rhythm and chords under my fingers as my background, I'm free to focus on the melody layer I'm now adding on top.

The analogy that comes to mind is painting a sign.  If you want to paint words in red on a white background, do you first paint the red words, and then try to fill in the white background in between the letters -- or do you paint the entire sign white, let it dry, and then paint the letters in red on top of the white background?  I guess you could do either, but the second option seems a lot easier (and avoids the risk that the in-between background (the fill notes) will overlap and obscure the lettering (the melody)).

Jody Hughes - Posted - 02/25/2012:  09:28:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by MOUNTAIN GOAT

Well a student needs one other device. Scruggs rattles these off so fast, no beginner can pick up anything. It needs to be slowed down keeping it in tune. I have one of these devices coming. AT speed you are lost immediately if you are trying to grasp the song. Sometimes the slow versions are still too fast to really grasp it. We can't listen to a song 1,000 times before we start learning it. I do agree though, getting the song in your head first would be a huge help. Just do it at a speed that you can get it in your head.

---

I understand what you are saying as far as fast instrumentals go and encourage the use of slow downers when it comes to learning banjo techniques.  However, If you listen to Going Down that Road Feeling Bad or Cripple Creek sung it's not fast at all. 

If you just take the bare bones melody you don't have to worry about hearing fast rolls and fill-in notes. That's what my post is about, learning just the melody as opposed to all the other sounds that aren't the melody at first.  If you stick to songs with words that have an easily distinguishable melody at first, speed is not as much of a problem.  It is when you get into songs like Groundspeed or Foggy Mt Breakdown that this becomes a problem.

Even songs like John Hardy or Cumberland Gap that are usually played at blazing speed don't have a "fast" melody if you listen to a singing version.  For most tunes (Once again, songs with words) the basic melodies can be learned without a slow-downer.  At the same time, one should use whatever means they need to learn the melody.

Lastly, I don't think one has to listen to a tune a 1000 times or some set number.  What's important is listening to it a lot. 

Edited by - Jody Hughes on 02/25/2012 09:42:31

Rich Weill - Posted - 02/25/2012:  09:34:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jody Hughes

I don't think one has to listen to a tune a 1000 times or some set number.  What's important is listening to it a lot. 

---

Or -- working with songs you already know how to sing.  It doesn't have to be an officially designated  "banjo song" to be played on the banjo. 

CreekRunner - Posted - 02/25/2012:  09:43:31

One caveat though. When you are a pure beginner, as I, you have to have some control of left hand fingering and a lot of control of right hand finger dexterity. Without those first, no matter how well you know the song, you still cannot play it. I am about 7 months in and am just now starting to experiment with picking out melody notes and then fitting rolls around them. You could get this finger practice just playing rolls over and over, but it gets boring, so we ask our instructors to tab out a song or two or ten. 

By the way, the songs I am having the most success with are the older, completely ingrained gospel tunes I grew up with. They are fairly easy to play in tempo and melody can be remembered even if you don't know the words.

Jody Hughes - Posted - 02/25/2012:  09:49:39

Hey CreekRunner,

This is why I am saying start with the melody. If you can't pick the melody by itself without rolls then doing it with rolls isn't going to be easier. The idea is to just start with as simple as you can before adding other stuff to it. Stuff that I think is clouding many peoples judgement of what the tune is.



There is also the Technique part of learning any instrument, that is why if you can sing a tune it doesn't mean you can pick up a banjo, guitar or mandolin and just play it. One has to have the basic fundamental techniques down before they can get it out of any instrument. 

Edited by - Jody Hughes on 02/25/2012 09:50:40

CreekRunner - Posted - 02/25/2012:  10:08:13

Jody, I am a rank beginner so this is just me thinking out loud. I only realized about two months ago that the songs are more or less built around the melody. Maybe that a two pronged approach would work. The rolls, rolling to Bile Em Cabbage e.g., and separate lessons on melody notes.

Please don't think I am trying to tell anyone how to instruct their students because I have no clue. Like I said, I am only thinking out loud. One of the biggest goals I had early on was to play a recognizable song, no matter how slow, to alleviate boredom of just rolls all the time like the first couple of weeks of practice.

Thanks for posting this topic. Maybe other beginners will pay more attention to melody notes that the songs are built on.

David

Beardog - Posted - 02/25/2012:  10:35:05

Amen to all of this. If I can't sing it (a tune with words) or hum it (a tune without words), I have no hope of playing it.

Rich Weill - Posted - 02/25/2012:  11:02:35

We may be mixing two different issues together when they should be considered separately.

The first is knowing, and then finding, the melody.  I'm all for that.  If you want to learn a song, I think it's a great, perhaps essential, early step to pick out just the single-note melody.  [It's probably not the first step.  That may be finding the chord progression.  But it's at least second.]  I do think it helps even more to pick out the single-note melody while holding the proper chords with your left hand.  After all, that's how you're ultimately going to have to play the melody.  More importantly, it's a great exercise for learning chord-melody note relationships, and developing the ear-finger coordination you will need later for finding the melody while playing over a chord progression.

But that's a separate issue from how you combine the melody, once you've found it, with rolls -- whether you add the rolls around the melody or the melody within the rolls.  I still believe the latter is much, much easier.  See my sign painter analogy above.

Where the two issues overlap is (1) deciding how much of the single-note melody to play, and (2) with which finger (if you're also practicing to later meld this single-note melody into a roll pattern).  If most standard rolls accommodate only about three melody notes per measure, should that be the single-note melody you are trying to establish initially?  And should you be playing the melody with the finger(s) you will be using later?  This may be why Janet Davis starts with an IM TIM TIM forward roll, instead of a TM TIM TIM forward roll.  With the former, you can use the index finger exclusively for the melody, rather than the thumb and index finger combined.  So if you pick out the single-note melody initially with your index finger, it will translate into a roll later without having to make any adjustments.

Edited by - Rich Weill on 02/25/2012 11:18:41

Sheldon - Posted - 02/25/2012:  12:45:39

Jodie
You are exactly correct.
I remember when my instructor gave me the tab for Home Sweet Home. I learned to play it but it was months before I found out it was the same song I had sung as a 3rd grader. When I recognized the song the way I played it made sense.
It is my opinion that anyone who teaches that way is wrong . . . WAY wrong!

Sheldon

pcfive - Posted - 02/26/2012:  17:23:02

Yes I definitely agree. If it's a vocal song you have to listen to it being sung, and if it's a fiddle tune you have to hear it played on a fiddle. Trying to learn banjo arrangements out of context is not a good idea, as I found out. When I first started trying to learn songs from tabs I couldn't even tell what notes were melody.

mikey5string - Posted - 02/26/2012:  18:33:50

Like everyone else, I agree. I always play a song better and with more confidence if I am familiar with the melody/words. I wonder though if it is really feasible to learn/teach this way.

It seems like an epiphany that more experienced players have, though it is rare that you meet someone who actually learned that way.

I remember not knowing any of the tunes in the books I had when I was starting. Red River Valley, Tom Dooley, Cripple Creek, Jesse James, Mountain Dew.... All I really could do was just jump right in. My playing was bad for sure but i figured it out little by little along the way.

Maybe the time it takes for a person to learn a melody, learn the chords, add some filler (pinches/rolls), add some licks, backup, improv, etc.. is the same amount of time it takes a person to jump in over their head and figure it out as they go.

Just thinking out loud. I really do think learning the melody first is best. Ive asked students to figure out familiar melodies themselves. Things like Twinkle Twinkle little Star and Mary Had a Little Lamb. I find that with effort (sometimes a lot) most can do it. In the time it took them to figure out that simple melody, they could be playing "Two Dollar Bill" from a tab. Im not sure which is better for the student.

I figure, of they keep playing long enough to realize the importance of the melody, they have arrived ;)

MOUNTAIN GOAT - Posted - 02/26/2012:  22:08:30

Well I am a beginner too and every single song I am learning is a song I have never heard before. It would take all day every day to get these in my head and learn how to play them. I try hearing them as I work and get it to some degree. SO I need things slowed way down to get it. I try to learn each song in stages. Figure out the right hand. Then add the left hand one line at a time until I get that pretty good, then move on down. I just got a device to slow down the tunes from a CD. If beginners could see how this is all played very slow and precise, it would be a huge help. Knowing the song first would also be huge.

banjotom2 - Posted - 02/27/2012:  01:56:13

Agreed 100%...

I also believe having that melody in your head will break the dependence on tab that so many newer folks to the banjo have...

Great topic and very important point!

Tom

banjotom2.com

Rich Weill - Posted - 02/27/2012:  05:59:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by MOUNTAIN GOAT

Well I am a beginner too and every single song I am learning is a song I have never heard before.

---

Do you consider this the inevitable beginners' predicament?  Or is this, rather, itself the core of the problem?

Where is it written in stone that a beginner has to start off learning "Banjo in the Hollow" instead of, say, "This Land Is Your Land" or some other song he or she knows (and knows how to sing) well?

I realize that many people don't have a private teacher, and thus have no say in the songs they are assigned to learn at the beginning.  But I've also read many BHO posts from private banjo teachers who say that they start every student off with "Cripple Creek" -- not a song most beginners could sing on a bet.  [And I seriously doubt teachers were bowing to the will of their students in this selection.  How many students demand to learn "Cripple Creek"?]

So perhaps the issue is less "learn the melody first" and more "teach songs people already know how to sing."  It's much harder to do the former if you don't do do the latter first.

gclaunch - Posted - 02/27/2012:  07:30:35

Interesting thread and I as a testimonial, am completely In "tune" with what has been discussed, but didn't get that way right away, but only after I had been working at it a while.
I think like many beginners with little previous music experience, I was fascinated with banjo music, one day bought a banjo with the idea that I would sit down and teach myself to play that magnificent music without truly realizing what was involved in the process, structure or philosophy of banjo playing. I thought hours of memorizing tabs would get me there..learned a couple of tunes, but that was it - a couple of tunes. (in retrospect, pretty discouraging.)
My breakthrough came at a Pete Wernick Jam camp where he espoused the exact same method - chords, humming or picking the melody, then adding rolls for your own rendition. Most importantly he explained WHY to do it this way. Interesting is that every tune I've learned that manner, I have never forgotten...tunes not familiar with and learned by tab, I just cannot remember. While not an expert myself, I understand and have seen firsthand this work and would highly recommend to all the newbies and beginners out there who are just starting, to really read and give credence to the posts in this thread.

arnie fleischer - Posted - 02/27/2012:  08:18:27

That's the way I've always learned songs, maybe because I came over to the dark side (bluegrass) only after having played and sung old timey music for over 10 years.  Back in the day, my old timey repertoire included some fiddle tunes, all with distinctive melodies that had to be learned correctly, but by far the bulk of what I played consisted of ballads where I accompanied myself singing, so I had to know the melody from the start. The very first tune I learned to play that way on the banjo was "Pretty Polly," in thumb-lead 2-finger style, following the melody note for note.  

For better or worse, I've tried to carry that approach over to my bluegrass playing.  I listen over and over to a tune until I can sing it to myself in my head, then I find those melody notes that are in my mind's ear on the banjo and determine what the chord progression is.  At that point, I decide how I want to play the song - what fingerings, what right hand techniques, etc.  

Every so often, though, when I get the urge to learn something relatively strange on the banjo, I'll get the sheet music and proceed to learn the melody and the chords, sometimes transposing into a different key if it's easier for me to play that way or if I think it sounds better on the banjo in a different key.  I've done that with songs like "Mr. Sandman" and "Sleigh Ride" (not to be confused with "Sledd Riding"!).  Even when I work out material like that, the result, as with everything else I play, sounds very straightforward - I'm by no means a hot or a fancy picker - but it works for me.  

kaybone - Posted - 02/27/2012:  08:40:16

This is a good topic ! I've been playing now for about 1.5 years and am really now just working on playing or picking melody notes and playing them to fill in with the rolls and chords. Sometimes, it seems like certain rolls are compatible with the overall rhythm of a song, but also sometimes incompatible with trying to hit all of the right melody notes. How do you know which melody notes to hit and which ones to skip? Also, I have been watching and listening to a lot of banjo players play live, both professional and amateur, and some of them seem to play with full chord shapes (very few players), and others just play very partial shapes of these chords as they work more of the melody notes in. I know am am doing more of this myself, sometimes playing full 4 finger chord shapes, sometimes 3, and then sometimes just two fingers of the chord, depending on the roll. But I am having much trouble getting this to flow smoothly with these three elements: the correct roll for a section of a song, the proper chord shape and how many fingers to make that chord with, and which melody notes to play.  I hope these comments make sense. So as you might imagine my timing is a little screwy and erratic -feels like i am trying to tap my head and pat my belly at the same time. This is all when trying to figure out how to play a song with the chord progressions and not tab. I know I can do fairly well learning a song from tabs, but tabs feel a little like paint by numbers and not as real musically. I know once I have internalized a song I learned from TAB, it's hard to go back to the tab again

minstrelmike - Posted - 02/27/2012:  08:48:42

You know which melody notes to leave out by listening.

It's an ear thing. Does it still sound enough like the song to you?

That's why it can only be done on songs that are familiar enough to be recognizable to you ;-)

Therefore, you either start with familiar tunes, or listen to the songs over and over until they become familiar (awful hard to do when listening to only a single version with banjo in it) or go to jams where the 'songs' you already have eventually become familiar enough so that they turn into tunes instead of fingerings.

O.D. - Posted - 02/27/2012:  08:54:27

I always get the melody first,in my head ,then on the banjo.

I find the rythym next and then try and  put it together.

 For me it usualy takes a bunch of "versions" until I settle on something I like.

 many times after I work something up Ill search for a tab and compare. Its very interesting how others arrive at a particular arrangement by comparison.

  good topic.

 regards, O.D.

Richard Dress - Posted - 02/27/2012:  09:19:45

Part of the confusion over this topic of Melody is that in bluegrass there is no Melody.  A Melody is something from the formal music world where things are written down.  In that world a Melody is something you can point to.  There variations but the variations are written down.  When the Melody is not cast in concrete and not published, an entirely different situation arises: an aural tradition.

In bluegrass we have melody.  The melody is what the performer decides it is.  A bluegrass melody may only exist for that one performance and it is gone.  To be replaced by some other performer's rendering of melody.  When bluegrassers say that's not the way Earl did it.  They don't mean that there is only one way to play it but that it's not exactly the way Earl did it in a specified performance or tab.

The most flexible thing about bluegrass melody is the placement of the notes.  One performer may sing the exact same notes but give them a different placement in time.  This is called phrasing and just about every singer phrases the song differently.

The point is that Melody and melody are very different things altogether.  The first is static and frozen onto paper, pinned like a dead butterfly to a card in a collection.  The other is fluid and full of artistic possibilities (and very hard to pin down in a discussion).

Rich Weill - Posted - 02/27/2012:  09:35:41

I think the "confusion," Richard, is simpler.  People confuse the arrangement with the song.

How many banjo players think that "Lonesome Road Blues" is only an upper-neck instrumental (because that's the way it's played on "Foggy Mountain Banjo")?  If, however, you called LRB by one of its (many) alternate titles -- "Goin' Down the Road Feelin' Bad" -- you might recognize it much more easily as that old Woody Guthrie vocal (a lot of other people have sung it, too) comfortably played down in the first position.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with learning the Scruggs upper-neck version.  But that's an arrangement, not the song.  [There's also nothing wrong with learning the generic song first.  Doing so may, in fact, make the upper-neck version easier to understand.]

Spitfire-Smith - Posted - 02/27/2012:  13:51:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jody Hughes

I see questions on here about "How come I can't make my arrangement sound like the song?"  It might be a rhythm problem.  Mostly I think it's because the person doesn't have the tune in there head good enough.

By that I mean you should be able to hum it without the instrument or play it one note at a time without rolls.

If you can't hear it clearly then your ear to hand connection is going to be full of static and so is your picking.

---

That's exactly what I try to do. As a new picker, my dream was to learn to play Foggy Mountain Breakdown at full speed, cleanly. Well, over the past few years (only been playing the banjo for about 8 months now) I bet I've listened to FMB about 2,000 times (one of my favorite tunes ever), and in about any variation you can imagine.

Well after this short time with my banjo, I am finding it easier to learn FMB (a song I considered the holy grail of banjo tunes) than a simple tune like Grandfather's Clock, because I've heard FMB many, many more times. I'm still nowhere close to being able to play the whole song, let alone at speed, but I'm finding learning it that much easier since I know exactly how the melody is supposed to go.

I think the best advice for players (beginner's especially) is to find that one banjo tune that you just love, and listen to it 1,000 times. At home, in the car, at work if you can. Then try to learn it. No matter how hard it is, it will still be easier to learn to you, than a song you've never heard before in your life. I think this will also help you progress faster in your playing ability as we all like songs with those real fancy licks in them, and we will probably learn them before we are necessarily ready, but this will make the beginner's material easier to master.

Just my 2 cents.

Dwayne

dutchtenor - Posted - 02/27/2012:  14:17:52

Nice point of view! Sounds like the words of very famous musicians. Ao diango reinhardt said the same words and practiced it.
I am from the 4-string old time scene, but your words are universal.
Kind regard from the Netherlands!

Hotrodtruck - Posted - 02/28/2012:  08:04:40

" do think it helps even more to pick out the single-note melody while holding the proper chords with your left hand.  After all, that's how you're ultimately going to have to play the melody."

I think this issue  kind of depends. 

For the basic Scruggs style in the key of G (or capo'd position) it can be a distraction. I remember being told the same thing when I first started learning and it took me a while to figure out that some of the Scruggs style is difficult, if not impossible for mortal humans, to play while holding the chord. In fact, I would say that most of the tunes using the G shape use only partial chords, or only a single string being fretted. It was kind of an epiphany when I was free of holding the chord. Trying to hold a full chord while playing can be frustrating.

I think the full-chord approach works better for the closed-chord tunes, in G tuning (key of D, etc.). Even then, many times partial chords are used. 

Don't get me wrong- It is a valuable practice technique to play rolls or strum while holding full chords. It works well for practicing backup, because a lot of backup playing is done that way , ,     ,.. ..

YOMV

Mike

Rich Weill - Posted - 02/28/2012:  10:10:00

Mike, I never said anything about "full chords."  Nor did I suggest that you had to hold all of the chord notes if moving a finger was required to fret a melody note.  All I was trying to say was that you should hold as much of the chord while playing the single-note melody as you would hold while later playing the song.  It's good training, and avoids getting into the habit of fretting the melody with a finger you won't be using for that melody note later.

I was taught to play using three-finger chords only (unless I was actually playing the 4th string, in which case I was also taught to shift from a three-finger chord to a four-finger chord).  I was taught to use my index, middle, and ring fingers for these three-finger chords -- in order to keep my left pinkie free for additional non-chord "passing" notes.  I've found that to be a very useful technique as the pinkie has more range and freedom of movement, when finding melody notes to fret, than any other finger.  It's not always possible to use your pinkie for non-chord melody notes, but you can reach more of them with your pinkie that you might realize.  

However, I was also discouraged from using "partial chords" with less than three fingers.  Except when playing first position chords requiring open strings, the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd strings were generally fretted even if I thought those string were not going to be played.  My teacher called this a "curtain chord."  The chord served as a curtain behind what I was playing, in case I hit the wrong string unintentionally.

Edited by - Rich Weill on 02/28/2012 10:16:05

Hotrodtruck - Posted - 02/28/2012:  12:22:41

That's cool, Rich.

Mike

carlgaz - Posted - 03/01/2012:  15:11:02

I just stumbled onto this topic. How appropriate it is for me. I am a begginer 5 string player with some Guitar and Tenor Banjo experience. I was fortunate enough to have heard of The Toneway Project.  WWW.toneway.com

The mission is to helping people to play music together. Their site adresses a lot of whats getting talked about here. I found it very helpful in learning to play by ear v. tab. I wish I had something like this 45 years ago. (I am in no way afiliated with toneway. Just a fan that found what they do works for me)

Carl

GhostChile - Posted - 03/01/2012:  17:25:55

You know. Jody, thank u thank u thank u! I have just realized this is one of my major problems, along with timing. I have listened to bluegrass for years, but I bet I couldn't hum or sing the melody to any more than 3 tunes! I am listening, but not hearing. Guess this is why I am having a major prob in learning my first songs. The only version of boil cabbage down is played so darn fast, I couldn't pik out the melody with a stick of tnt! Beckyboy has a great backing track that is slow, but no words. I only have my fon, so I m very limited in what I can do and/or play. I really can't invest the money or time trying to find these cds. And I can't use tabledit or biab cuz I don't got a computer. All I really have is my droid 2 fon. I hope to get a computer, but that is years away yet. I am trying to learn from tab and what videos my fon will play. But now I understand why I m not progressing. Cuz I got no idea what the songs should sound like! I think I m in way over my head. I may have to quit until I can get the things I need.

Edited by - GhostChile on 03/01/2012 17:43:11

Jonnycake White - Posted - 03/01/2012:  17:50:36

I think the problem described here is one factor in my switch early on from bluegrass 3-finger picking to clawhammer. I am quite melody-oriented, probably far too much so. One thing I think would really help is for tabs to incorporate some kind of emphasis mark for those notes that are part of the melody as opposed to the filler notes that make the tune sound so complicated (although that's a good thing, not a bad one).

In other words I could try to learn a song where I did have the tune in my head, but I simply could not find it on the paper among all the other notes in the rolls. Some marking would help.

Hotrodtruck - Posted - 03/01/2012:  20:05:48

"I also believe having that melody in your head will break the dependence on tab that so many newer folks to the banjo have.."

Anyone who uses tab without knowing the melody is using tab all wrong. Use tab only after you can hum the tune and it is easy.

Mike

Oldballz - Posted - 03/01/2012:  20:34:02

Anyone know of a good teacher in central california? Ive looked on cralist and found nothing. Should I vist my local muisic shop and see if they know of anyone?