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answerguru - Posted - 02/01/2012: 21:12:20
Cool! I gave the intro and background material a read and it looks pretty interesting (you know, if you're into that sort of thing!).
Pjotor - Posted - 02/02/2012: 00:56:18
Thanks for posting! I'll read it between diaper changes (my daughter's, not mine).
banjoy - Posted - 02/02/2012: 04:57:04
Ok, so now we not only need to be attorneys to post here, but also, apparently, have PhD's in human social behavior.
Above my pay grade. I want a raise.
steve davis - Posted - 02/02/2012: 05:43:53
I ran out of reading interest in the 4th paragraph.
Alex Z - Posted - 02/02/2012: 05:44:53
I read the article. There's no real point to it. 75% describes the method ("first I did this, then I did that, then I contacted those folks, etc.")
The people interviewed did not learn to play the banjo via the BHO.
But it got published, with a nice title and lot of footnoted references worked in, and that may be the point. 
beegee - Posted - 02/02/2012: 05:58:45
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Z
I read the article. There's no real point to it. 75% describes the method ("first I did this, then I did that, then I contacted those folks, etc.")
The people interviewed did not learn to play the banjo via the BHO.
But it got published, with a nice title and lot of footnoted references worked in, and that may be the point.
I am a PhD(post-hole digger) and am a CPA(certified pesticide applicator).
frailin - Posted - 02/02/2012: 06:39:24
Ha! This is fun! Daunting to read (most documents like this ARE), but interesting. I especially liked getting to know Cathy, Marc and Murphy better.
Yay! The social scientists find us worthy of study!
Oh, someone should tell David (the author) NOT to refer to some one on the Hangout as an "old timer" (page 41) unless they really have passed over to that genre. 
beenjammin - Posted - 02/02/2012: 07:23:55
"I read the article. There's no real point to it."
perhaps you've missed the point. this particular article wasn't really written for BHO members. It was written for academics who like to argue about all sorts of things that BHO members wouldn't care about, but just like hard sciences, this is how you learn. If you were to really take anything away from this article it would be this:
"As music educators, we have much to learn by examining successful music communities of practice that lie outside of our “regular” scope of school music and school music genres, and this includes teaching musical skills necessary to be active participants in other genres besides those perpetuated by school music. Neither have we fully understood or utilized the power of the Internet in facilitating informal music learning in online communities. As a profession, we have a lot of catching up to do. But we also have shining examples available to emulate that are literally at our fingertips."
This is the crux of the article and it all boils down to her basic argument, which is that school music programs need to be more diverse and embrace multimedia, teach basic skills better and facilitate the interests of the student.
It's really nice to see people studying this, even though I have my critiques (of the academic variety). If any more articles like this crop up one tip is to just skip to the conclusion.
Laurence Diehl - Posted - 02/02/2012: 08:18:13
As with all disciplines, social scientists have their own language and it can be a bit hard to wade through it, especially if you're not used to it. What I got out of if was that online communities are being taken seriously, and considered worthy of study. Yes, my friends - we are the future!
Laurence
Paul R - Posted - 02/02/2012: 09:46:12
I found it interesting, if for no other reason than to get a better look at Cathy, Marc, and Murphy (being an "old timer" of sorts, I can identify with people growing up in the "old days"). Their comments about their musical learning experiences were significant. Funny, but, with all the respondents, three people are the basis of this article. Do you think there will be further articles coming up? Had I been aware at the time, I would have volunteered - not that it would have added anything of value!
(Hmmmm .... I wonder if we're being watched.) 
banjo_brad - Posted - 02/02/2012: 11:37:49
Thanks for the link, Jim. I was interviewed by Dr. Waldron way back at the beginning of her research, and I've been wanting to see the results.
I forget if she ran across me here or on another site, but she did make the first contact, and we had a rather enjoyable conversation via Skype.
Sheldon - Posted - 02/02/2012: 13:11:28
Being studied by a Social Scientist . . . It was hard enough to hold my head up as a banjo player!!
Sheldon
minstrelmike - Posted - 02/02/2012: 16:55:06
Interesting paper. Thanks for the link.
It validates everything I say about the importance of chording for getting started.
I could cite it.
All of the old timers stressed the importance of chording for learning and teaching, and Marc and Murphy both stressed the importance of singing and chording when learning and playing Old Time and Bluegrass music respectively. Murphy and Cathy, both of whom are more active teachers than Marc, discussed the importance of teaching learners how to chord, and I will discuss chording from their perspectives as teachers later in this section.
"Some people who have a chord background kind of get it intuitively, or by osmosis, but for adults who come to me with no musical background, [chording] is the hardest thing I have to each them. Teach them how to play the songs, no problem. Teach them how to play the chords that go along with the songs? Huge problem. " (Murphy starts with children's songs to fix this ;-)
coelhoe - Posted - 02/02/2012: 17:46:07
Dr. Waldron is not what I would call a Social Scientist. She is an Associate Prof. of Music Education at the University of Windsor in Canada. This paper is the kind of thing that passes for scholarship in Colleges of Education. It is worth noting that either as a consequence of this paper, or in advance of it, she received a grant of $135,000 to "...study music learning in...on line...communities...
The bibliography has some interesting items.
Calv - Posted - 02/02/2012: 21:40:01
quote:
Originally posted by coelhoe
It is worth noting that either as a consequence of this paper, or in advance of it, she received a grant of $135,000 to "...study music learning in...on line...communities...
I would have used that to buy a decent banjo.....several decent banjos in fact and get lessons.
Calv.
beenjammin - Posted - 02/03/2012: 07:26:21
Coelhoe
no, I wouldn't consider her a social scientist at all. I had some real problems with her theoretical arguments and her methodology, things that should be basic practice in social science disciplines like sociology and anthropology.
"This paper is the kind of thing that passes for scholarship in Colleges of Education."
I tried to focus on the bright side, but I can't argue with that assessment. I thought it was an undergrad paper until you mentioned those details, i skipped that section.
I sure do wish our department could score that kind of funding.
Alex Z - Posted - 02/03/2012: 09:24:12
"The purpose of this cyber ethnographic case study is to examine the
informal music learning and teaching in the Banjo Hangout (BH) online music community of
practice (
banjohangout.com), focusing on two genres—Old Time and Bluegrass banjo
music—found there."
["Examine" is a pretty broad word, a jargon word that is used in academic papers to justify a paper that may not have much new stuff in it.]
Regarding the conclusions, I don't disagree with the author's conclusions about the BHO. Rather, I do not see that the evidence presented in the body of the article supports the conclusions -- the evidence is more of a rambling narration of the non-BHO history of a few people that were contacted via the BHO. Consequently, I'm seeing the "conclusions" as merely plausible assertions, not rigorous findings.
Again, not that the plausible assertions are wrong, only that they do not flow from the research evidence presented.
Edited by - Alex Z on 02/03/2012 09:28:14
Jazz Country - Posted - 02/03/2012: 11:42:13
Before we become too smug we should note that social scientists also study gangs, sociopaths, and substance abusers.
Larry
minstrelmike - Posted - 02/03/2012: 11:47:07
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Z
...Consequently, I'm seeing the "conclusions" as merely plausible assertions, not rigorous findings.
Again, not that the plausible assertions are wrong, only that they do not flow from the research evidence presented.
That was my take on it (but that's my take on a lot of 'scientific' papers, even ones that have garnered accolades and prizes).
Seems to me the goal of the paper is unfocused.
If you want to talk about on-line communities, that's one thing.
If you want to talk about folk-style music versus school-style (classical/jazz), that's a different thing.
And wanting to talk about how on-line folk-music communities can assist with music education in schools, that's a fourth thing (because we skipped over a third subject also).
jlwm - Posted - 04/22/2012: 15:39:56
Hi folks - Janice here, I wanted to thank all of your who participated in this study (see link posted by Jim Carrier above). I have two more articles (one just published and another in press) based on the BH study and will post details here for any of those interested (or contact me directly via e-mail - jwaldron@uwindsor.ca). The next article is entitled, "YouTubes, fanvids, fourms, vlogs and blogs: Informal music learning in a convergent on- and offline community," to be published in the International Journal of Music Education, May 2012 (the abstract is already up and available online).
Certainly was eye-opening stuff to my fellow music educators (I've presented this study at four international conferences), most of whom were totally and completely unaware of online communities/forums like the Hangout - and the passion that adults have for learning music outside of "classical"/formal genres (and I must 'fess up - in addition to being a high school band director for 20 years prior to becoming an academic, I have and continue to be an Irish trad player on tin whistle/uilleann pipes). I am currently working with a colleague at James Madison University researching music learning in the Old Time/Bluegrass communities in the Shenandoah Valley. Went to a lovely Old Time slow jam in Ashland yesterday as a matter of fact and am out again tonight. Great fun.
Again - thanks to all of you participants! I was overwhelmed by the generosity of spirit/engagement displayed by those of you who contacted and shared your stories with me. Many of your narratives are included in the next two forthcoming articles.
(p.s. I teach in the School of Music at the University of Windsor and not the Faculty of Education. And yes - I received a 135, 000 SSHRC grant to study on and offline musical communities of practice in Celtic-Canadian music - based on my previous work with informal music leanring in the Irish/Celtic-Canadian community. Again - great fun, and I am so grateful to have the resources to carry out this kind of research).
