Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/226975
beezaboy - Posted - 01/30/2012: 06:08:29
Bacon/B&D occasionally put a maker's plate on the outside of the resonator. Some have them and some don't.
There seem to be at least a couple of kinds. One kind is a generic "Made By" plate. Another is a model designation plate.
I wonder how many varieties of Bacon or B&D resonator maker's plates exist?
I'll start with a photo of Bacon "Made By" plate on my Bacon private label Art-i-so tenor banjo.
jims38134 - Posted - 01/30/2012: 06:46:40
I have Silver Bell's that read:
Style No 1 (or 3)
B&D Silver Bell
The Bacon Banjo CoInc Groton Conn
I can provide a photo later.
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/30/2012: 07:07:50
John,
Correction - your sentence above will have to be:
Some have them and MOST don´t. LOL!
I´ve just now made a "tour" ´round my house and display - I found only four B&D´s having a plate - and all with different inscriptions.
From the pics in my archive I can f.ex. tell, that very very few of the classic Silver Bell´s have a plate - that almost all Montana SB´s and Senorita´s have one - that a majority of Sultana SB´s have one - etc. It´s my rough guess, that max. 1/3 of Groton built B&D´s have a plate.
It´s my impression, that Bacon didn´t order or produce these plates pre-engraved in large bulks - they were most likely engraved in-house on an almost daily basis. Thus maybe the variety in "lay-out´s".
Polle
beezaboy - Posted - 01/30/2012: 08:51:52
Bacon's criterion for installing a resonator maker's plate seems to be yet another mystery.
My first Bacon was a Bacon Special #1 tenor ca. 1928 and it had a resonator maker's plate. My uninitiated and subconscious impression then was that all resonator models had a plate. I now see that this impression was wrong. My B&D Symphonie #1 ca 1931 does not have a plate. Nor does the Type II Seville ca 1939.
The Special #1 has gone to a new home so I cannot photograph the plate but it had one (see attached).
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/30/2012: 09:02:15
John,
Yes - indeed a mystery - especially as consistency was sort of a trade mark for Mr. Day!
BTW - none of the Special examples, that I´ve personally met so far, have the plate.
Polle
PS!
Oops - our postings crossed!
Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 01/30/2012 09:03:19
beezaboy - Posted - 01/30/2012: 10:13:28
I have a theory.
Bacon resonator maker's plates were applied in two circumstances;
1. To the first production run(s) of newly introduced models to clearly indicate that the new model was made by Bacon.
2. To high grade models not part of regular production menu for which the factory and Mr. Day were proud and wanted to distinguish the banjo and clearly indicate that this particular beauty was made by Bacon.
Regular production models that had been coming off the line for some time, like the "common" Silver Bell #1, (and even the Montana and Sultana line) did not receive a maker's plate.
Would be interesting to test this theory by seeing if first run Montana or Sultana or Senorita banjos had a resonator maker's plate.
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/30/2012: 10:50:35
John,
Sorry - but NO - my extended database clearly shows so! No pattern and/or consistency can be found.
Polle
jims38134 - Posted - 01/30/2012: 14:06:32
my Sultana No 1 has no ID plate.
jim
beezaboy - Posted - 01/30/2012: 14:34:44
Theory #2.
Bacon probably did not make it a practice to sell directly to the public.
I know Bacon/B&D banjos were distributed to jobbers and retail stores from articles in Music Trade Review (Chas Ditson in New York for example was a contract Bacon dealer).
Perhaps the resonator maker's plates were installed for large customers that wanted them and not installed for customers that did not.
Apparently Mr. Scheidlmeier did not want the plate on his namesake banjos.
cabinwood - Posted - 01/30/2012: 14:39:07
I had a "Gordon" banjo that had the nameplate "Made By The Bacon Banjo Co. Groton, Conn" on the back of the resonator.
jims38134 - Posted - 01/30/2012: 15:04:13
I suspect the "Made by" plate was used on "private label" banjos.
Here's a Sultana No 3 ID plate:
beezaboy - Posted - 01/30/2012: 15:10:24
More to Theory #2:
I'll bet Bacon charged a little extra for the resonator plates. So, retailers and jobbers that wanted to demonstrate to customers that they were getting a genuine Bacon banjo had only to exhibit the resonator as proof positive. Those retailers and jobbers that wanted the plates were probably satisfied with the positive results achieved at point of sale. Other jobbers and retailers that were unwilling to pay for the plates were apparently satisfied with the headstock inlay (in the case of a branded B&D) and dowel stamp.
rudykizuty - Posted - 01/30/2012: 15:43:29
My 1935 Senorita has no plate. A friend with an earlier Senorita does have the "Made by" plate. I have always figured they were done away with as a cost cutting measure, but I have no proof of this being factual in any way.
As for the examples I have seen on Specials and Senorita, they are always the generic "Made by" plate. The Senorita does seem to be the more common one found with a plate, whereas it seems more rare on the Special. And it seems to me that only the Silver Bell and certain variants are mentioned by name, with the variants being the added words "Montana" or "Roy Smeck", etc. Interestingly, I've seen my share of Sultana banjos but never saw a plate marked accordingly. Only the "Silver Bell" designation appeared on these.
Again, this is based on nothing more than personal observation and is not intended to be factual. If there is a variant out there that says Sultana, post it for all of us B&D nuts to see!
rudykizuty - Posted - 01/30/2012: 16:42:33
Thanks, Jim!
NYCJazz - Posted - 01/30/2012: 21:51:01
The #2 resonator on my SB plectrum has no plate
Here's the Roy Smeck tenor:
I notice some are created by hand (like this one) and some are stamped with type dies. Seems like earlier ones were by hand?
Edited by - NYCJazz on 01/30/2012 21:57:07
TB-4 Guy - Posted - 01/30/2012: 22:44:00
There is no plate on my '32 Medalist Plectrum.
beezaboy - Posted - 01/31/2012: 03:29:36
Thinking out loud. Criterion for affixing a resonator maker's plate (combination of theory #1 and theory #2):
1. "Made by..." plate was a factory option. Buyers could order plates at extra cost. (see Art-i-so & Special #1 above).
2. "Model" plate was a factory option for low end models. Buyers could order plates at extra cost.. (see Jims38134 Silver Bell #1 above).
3. High end "Model" plates almost standard for all banjos #3 and up. (see Banjoworld Gallery of Banjos - Bacon & Day: banjoworld.de/brands.htm (customer had option to decline standard plate). Customer could order special plate in place of standard plate: banjoworld.de/High354.htm and banjoworld.de/High178.htm in place of standard high-end plate
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/31/2012: 04:00:03
Till recently you could in Europe have f.ex. your BMW or AUDI delivered without any "inscriptions" at the back (model name, engine size/type etc. etc.) - IF you paid a little extra. Today this "service" is free of charges, I think.
This leads to another theory:
Maybe a new B&D would back then be delivered with one of these awful plates - UNLESS you paid a little extra for getting an example without!
Polle
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/31/2012: 04:24:32
John H.,
"Bacon probably did not make it a practice to sell directly to the public."
Another mistake - Bacon sold many banjos directly to customers - per mail order, at exhibitions etc.
For some of the appr. 2,200 Groton built Bacon/B&D´s in my archive a provenance is included - including some great "stories" about the purchase, shipment and "home-bringing" of the banjo in question.
Polle
rudykizuty - Posted - 01/31/2012: 07:06:56
I don't think they are awful at all. In fact, I find them rather desirable.
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/31/2012: 09:05:40
Well - I prefer my Ladies naked.
Polle
banjocollector - Posted - 01/31/2012: 09:12:17
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
Well - I prefer my Ladies naked.
Polle
Only takes two screws !
Derek
beezaboy - Posted - 01/31/2012: 09:25:52
To see some Bacon resonator tags go to Buddy Wachter's site and look through the SOLD category.
buddysbanjos.com/
Most #3's and up have resonator tags. I submit that this feature was standard for #3's and up but customer could opt out.
Symphonie banjos did not get resonator plates for some reason.
Most are nickle but a few are gold: buddysbanjos.com/detail-galler...p?IID=184.
The gold plate suggests that resonator plates had a certain "optional aura" about them.
To summaraize a theoretical explanation for why some B&D"s have plates and others do not: "Made by" plates were an option that could be purchased by private label customers. Nickle "Model" plates were an option that could be purchased by customers acquiring the "lower end" models on which plates did not come standard. "Model" plates were standard for Silver Bell #3 and up quality banjos but purchaser could opt out or even order a custome plate. Gold plates were a further option offered by factory. There was a fee for attaching a resonator plate to models that did not come with them as standard and a fee for upgrading to gold.
This summary is conjecture, of course, as no one has yet stated another logical scenario. But, I think, it has a nice ring to it.
NYCJazz - Posted - 01/31/2012: 10:59:33
In the late 20's/early 30's, it was not always the practice to plaster logos on a company's product. If you had a certain quality product, it didn't need a logo.
The #6 NPU's are an example.
Packard autos of this period, if you got optional hubcaps, only said "Packard" on one place in the entire car... the serial number plate on the firewall. You had to open the hood to see it.
esmic - Posted - 01/31/2012: 13:49:35
Here are a few more plates to ponder. These few examples indicate the Montanas and NPUs were graphically inconsistent , suggesting that in the "B&D plate department " things were pretty much ad hoc .
rudykizuty - Posted - 01/31/2012: 14:59:11
Ya know, not all are quite "original" either. I've seen them taken off banjos and sold to guys who have banjos that came without. I've also seen reproductions floating around on rare occasion. Just sayin'.
jims38134 - Posted - 01/31/2012: 15:59:35
beezaboy,
One of my SB No 1 tenors has a plate (the "loose" one pictured above- off while the resonator is being worked on) and my other SB No 1 tenor one does not have one (and never had one).
Gold plated Montana one is on a gold-plated No3 .
jim
beezaboy - Posted - 01/31/2012: 16:16:06
Jim - You were the one that gave me the idea that Model plates were an option for a fee for the early catalog page banjos.
Otherwise, how could one of your #1's have a plate and the other #1 not have one?
Why did my "budget" Special #1 have a plate and Polle had never seen a plate on a Special?
Why are most plates nickle (even on high end B&D's) and yours is gold?
Again, I think esmic's "B&D Plate Department" must have had some parameters (a fee $ for banjos not entitled to a plate and a little extra for gold) and their plate preparation was generally within a template but otherwise ad hoc in the interest of creativity!
beezaboy - Posted - 01/31/2012: 17:26:40
Paul - Very cool. Note that the goldie has a gold plate and the regular 3-A does not have a plate.
I'm thinking - for a little extra $ you can have a plate and for a little more extra++ $ you can have a goldie!!
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/31/2012: 20:28:36
So much nonsens has been posted at this thread - I don´t know where to start. So I´ll better not.
Except - the plating of the plate were ab factory exactly as for the other metal parts - nickel, silver or gold!
And - a comparison of receipts in my archive show, that there was no difference in price for standard (catalog) style examples - with or without a plate.
The title for this thread is "B&D Resonator Plates - How Many Kinds?" - the various postings do however give the answer to this question - but nothing else.
Polle
