CGDA - Posted - 01/13/2012:  16:48:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjopaolo

Hi Marco

you may be intersted in this:

banjoworld.de/Sale1530.htm

the price is not crazy and the instrument seems in good shape....

ciao

---

I saw the banjo you indicate: it looks and probalbly sounds & plays well. It's not the same of Veniero's (not a Deluxe model). I agree with you about the price, but  my budget is severely damaged by the current financial crisis . I'm not a prof and there is no reason to pay out 1800 european bucks for that one...but an unexpected "gratta e vinci"..! 

I console myself by  listening to this divine music:

youtu.be/rLyM4gCrn1k

Marco

Edited by - CGDA on 01/13/2012 16:52:17

stanger - Posted - 01/13/2012:  22:57:38

Thanks for those production figures, Polle...
I always thought the B&D production was lower than Vega's, but didn't think the production difference would be so large.
Would the Vega production number include all the various Vega models?

regards,
stanger

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/14/2012:  01:59:50

Stanger,

No the figures are for the Vega Vegaphone/Professional and B&D Silver Bell #1 23" scale tenors - as mentioned and as asked about in the thread.

Polle

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 01/14/2012 02:00:22

geezr - Posted - 01/14/2012:  07:14:16

Polle

As a guess, the reason that the prices of Silver Bells didn't increase that much when the quality improved so much is because David Day was not only an innovator in banjo design, he was also an innovator in production tooling design and methods as well.

Ed Britt was telling me that Mr Day was always trying new ideas in banjo design, and he was actually making banjos and parts in the shop himself. I think it is reasonable to assume that he did a lot of experimenting with tool design and production methods as well. In a product like a banjo the closer tolerances that you have observed come come frome good tool design and production methods, and not from more highly skilled craftsmen. If something could be done better with a machine then it was done by machine, and the craftsmen did the work that could not be done by machine. This is also where the modularity comes into play.

Jay

Edited by - geezr on 01/14/2012 07:16:39

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/14/2012:  07:53:10

Jay,

Yes - exactly - I do totally agree!

Only - some of the expensive metal parts - f.ex. Ludwig tuners, Oettinger tailpiece and the soft pedal mute - came from other companies and/or subcontractors - but again I guess, that Mr. Day via his planning skills etc. managed to make some fine deals and contracts.

Polle

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 01/14/2012 07:53:34

CGDA - Posted - 01/14/2012:  11:52:19

Hi Polle!
I wonder if there is any difference between Groton B&Ds and Gretsch B&D's. Someone told me they are not exactly the same stuff.
I suppose that many topics have been opened here about that, but, anyway, which is your opinion ?
All the best!
Marco

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/15/2012:  00:25:57

Marco,

You can´t compare them in any way - except for the brand and some model names. Many Gretsch built Bacon´s and B&D´s are fine players, but the quality of materials, components and craftsmanship is not near that of Bacon built banjos. Plus none of them have neck steel reinforcements - due to this you´ll often see examples with very bowed and/or wharped necks..

As productions re-started after WW II - appr. 1946 - the craftsmanship put in was somehow OK - but over the years it dropped severely.

But - it seems, that some players like the rough yet flashy looks of some of the models - they do often keep prices almost as high as the Bacon built predecessors. Strange!

Polle

CGDA - Posted - 01/15/2012:  03:19:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe

Marco,

You can´t compare them in any way - except for the brand and some model names. Many Gretsch built Bacon´s and B&D´s are fine players, but the quality of materials, components and craftsmanship is not near that of Bacon built banjos. Plus none of them have neck steel reinforcements - due to this you´ll often see examples with very bowed and/or wharped necks..

As productions re-started after WW II - appr. 1946 - the craftsmanship put in was somehow OK - but over the years it dropped severely.

But - it seems, that some players like the rough yet flashy looks of some of the models - they do often keep prices almost as high as the Bacon built predecessors. Strange!

Polle

---

That's exactly what I suspected. Thank you for anwering to a question that you probably received a lot of times.

Marco

haildixon - Posted - 01/16/2012:  21:54:17

Everyone, thanks for all the interest and information in this thread.

Also - anyone familiar with this banjo? - ebay.com/itm/190628258020?ssPa...00wt_1413

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/16/2012:  22:38:52

John D.,

It´s an early 1925 build - all original except for the missing soft pedal mute and two of the thumb screws at the tailpiece.

The seller seems honest - do f.ex. notice his remark about a heavy fret wear and a repaired neck. Regarding the latter - it had a heel crack in the past (very rare for a B&D) - this has been poorly repaired - do notice, that the neck and dowel have not been correctly reassembled - the neck is twisting somewhat. A large screw going through the heel has also been added.

The neck is not steel reinforced and will most likely have a somewhat fat profile - fret board widths are however identical with those of later versions. The tuners are Grover Screw Tabs - later Bacon used the more expensive Ludwig Planets - even later also Grover Pancakes.

The general condition seems excellent - I take, that a skilled craftsman or luthier will have no problems bringing this fine banjo back to an almost as-new condition.

Regards

Polle

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/17/2012:  00:46:14

PS!

A refretting - including a fret board leveling and possible new bindings - and a renewed repair of the hell crack can be somewhat costly. I don´t know the exact rates in your part of the world - but I estimate, that the costs - inclusive of a bracket repair, a reset to pro-playability and a fresh set-up etc. - will be 700-1,000 bucks.

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 01/17/2012 00:47:54

haildixon - Posted - 01/17/2012:  07:16:52

Thanks a lot, Polle, for your assessment. I think I'll pass on this one.

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/17/2012:  08:05:15

John D.,

I do sense the calculator inside your brain running at full speed - yes, a banjo like this will end up being to costly for many players. Only a very skilled do-it-yoursef-guy or the like can bring this banjo back to former glory - at a reasonable price.

I do buy (and sell) 5-10 B&D Silver Bell´s per year - from No. 1´s to No. 6 Ne Plus Ultra´s - as you may have sensed, I do know exactly what to look for. I perform many repairs, rebuilds, restorings, set-up´s etc. on these and banjos of other vintage or newer brands myself - only for the really difficult works I use a costly German master luthier.

Do also be aware, that most vintage banjos for sale at major music stores - f.ex. Bernunzio, Elderly and Gruhn - have not been restored and/or rebuilt/set up to pro-performance - they do normally get max. a shine and maybe a new head and bridge.

My own stock is full for now - so if I notice an interesting restored/rebuilt example for sale at a reasonable price in US, I´ll let you know off-line.

Regards

Polle

haildixon - Posted - 01/17/2012:  09:07:42

Right you are. I really wish I had the facilities to work on instruments, not to mention the time, but I'm overextended as it is. If you do happen to see a good solid example of a B&D SB#1 that doesn't need much work, I'd love to know and really appreciate it. I did, however, see and hear a Vegaphone Artist model the other day that I'm kind of enamored with. It had the patina'd gold plating and engraved individual flanges and hoop, beautiful peghead inlay.

grrr. decisions.

skip sail - Posted - 04/22/2012:  04:58:40

My new B+D silver belle 5 string(1925)has just retired my Tubaphone #3 5 string.

Andy Fielding - Posted - 05/10/2012:  00:57:29

May I contribute my two cents here?

Speaking very generally, I agree that, among the Golden Age companies, Vega and B&D made the best-sounding four-string banjos. (Gibsons sound great too, but like many people I feel their tone is better suited to five-string.)

That said, I've played many Vegas and B&Ds that sounded mediocre and worse. And I've played obscure brands that sounded awesome.

The type and correct (or incorrect) tensioning of the head; the type of bridge; the contact between neck and body; the type and condition of strings—and as I'm not a luthier, I'm sure there are other factors I'm omitting... I think the word SETUP should be emblazoned in large bold type at the beginning of any discussion of banjo tone.

haildixon - Posted - 05/10/2012:  10:30:36

Setup, indeed.

I'm currently playing a B&D Silver Bell Guitar Banjo - I call it the BDSBGB for short. I don't really. In my head I've taken to calling it "The Yankee." Anyway, regardless of name, when the banjo was first shipped to me it was unplayable; the bridge was garbage and the no-knot tailpiece and calfskin head couldn't give me the tone or volume I needed.

I absolute love how modular banjos are - if one part doesnt suit you, try a couple replacements. It's so nice. I ordered a Kershner style tailpiece, 1 each of a frosted, renaissance, and fiberskyn head, and had Jim Farquhar build me 2 different bridges, one with nut inserts and one without. I tried out a few different string sets. I finally settled on a combination that works great for me and the banjo is basically a completely different beast than the one that I received.

As far as this discussion goes... I never updated this thread. A while back I found a terrific deal on a beautiful old Vegaphone Artist Tenor. It was bought by a young shoeshiner in his 20's who admired it being played a Greek banjoist in a wedding band in Chicago. After the Greek died, he bought the banjo from the widow and stowed it in his closet intending to one day learn how to play. It sat in his closet for 50 years until his daughter helped him clean out some stuff and they decided to sell it. Anyway, I think it's a gorgeous instrument. The neck is being restored, short of refinishing, by our own Steve Caddick. After that the plan is to ship it all off to Renee Karnes for repair, refinishing and setup. Here are some pics of it before I sent the neck to Steve: flickr.com/photos/haledixon/se...16390013/

I appreciate all the feedback in this thread, there's a lot of very good information. I've got the bug, so I'm sure in the future I'll be looking for the right Silver Bell or Orpheum or whatever. I like to keep my options open.