pcoopy - Posted - 12/18/2011:  17:31:33

 On the mid 20's Silver Bells, what is the difference in tone between the ones with the tone ring with holes and the ones without holes.

I have a 1927 Silver Bell.  My tuning machines run kind of rough.  If I were to replace them with the proper tuners where could I get them?

Phil

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 12/19/2011:  05:44:30

Phil,

IMHO the Type III Silver Bell tone ring (No Holes) - as introduced early 1927 - combined with a very slim steel reinforced neck as introduced somewhat earlier - gives you a more rich and powerful sound.

However - some like the mother - some the daughter!  LOL!

It´s my impression, that many average players prefer the somewhat dry and very clean sound as produced by Silver Bell banjos with a Type II tone ring - otherwise more experienced / skilled players do often prefer the later Type III - as they can benefit from its more complex qualities.

Polle

pcoopy - Posted - 12/19/2011:  07:57:08

Thanks Polle,



I'm not completely satisfied with the sound of my Silver Bell #1 but that may be the head Elite Amber head that I put on it and it may sound better to me with an Original Elite head on it. It's not a very costly experiment ($18USD). Also, I am not sure how tight those heads need to be. I have tried several different tensions and found out loose makes the intonation funny and very tight produces a lot of strange harmonics on high position chords. I guess I need to own it for a longer time to get it right. I need to find a good player in my area to check it out....not very likely!



Phil

Edited by - pcoopy on 12/19/2011 08:02:59

Dogface - Posted - 12/19/2011:  08:47:12

I'm gonna follow this thread cuz I've had the same disappointments in the SB's I've owned BUT have played with others' SB's and found them wonderful. I dunno which ring those had and how they were set up but I loved them. I just could not seem to reproduce that tone in ones I owned.

aroblin - Posted - 12/19/2011:  08:55:49

When I first got my SB #1 holes-in-tone-ring tenor, I didn't like the sound AT ALL. I was used to my Washburn Style C.

After a lot of trial and error, the SB#1 is now my favorite. I had to find:

* my preferred string gauges.
* preferred action.
* preferred bridge.
* preferred head tension.

I think a lot of it was just getting a comfortable setup and unconsciously adapting and improving my playing to get the best sound out of the SB.

Andrew Roblin

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 12/19/2011:  10:26:43

Phil,

Keep the Elite Amber (identical with the Remo Renaissance head) on - this is IMO todays standard for the very best 4-stringers - but do have in mind, that this type of head will have to be extremely tight in order performing at its best. If wanted - please let me know - on- or offline - about your choice of strings, bridge, pick, playing style(s) etc. - I´ll then try putting up some personal set-up advices for you.

Mark,

I´ve been a little "puzzled" by your planned sale of your Richelieu NPU and the purchase of a Gibson 800 instead - IMO a severe "down-grade" - maybe you haven´t been able finding an optimal set-up for the Richelieu and/or previously owned B&D´s - I´ll gladly help you the best I can. Feel free contacting me offline with infos about your present/past set-up infos plus your desire(s).

Andrew,

Yes - indeed - you´re telling the "correct" story - our beloved Ladies are not "mechanical" instruments as f.ex. pianos, accordions etc. - they are "crying" for an optimal set-up combined with the best suited playing techniques.

Best wishes

Polle

Dogface - Posted - 12/19/2011:  10:36:18

Polle,

I sold the Richelieu simply because I never really played it. It sounds great but I prefer playing older banjos and have decided not to get an 800 although I did look into the idea a bit. As I had stated early on in that venture, I had played some on a friend's 800 a long time ago and loved it. As for a Gibson, I'd much prefer a late 20's model but likely won't afford that either. I have a wonderful Paramount, a fine Ode Style F, and a banjo I put together myself from BD parts and a Richelieu arch top tone ring which sounds and plays wonderfully....all three do for that matter. All are pictured on my home page. I just banked the money I got for the Richy.

CGDA - Posted - 12/19/2011:  11:39:31

I'm reading here some statements about the head tension. A few years ago I bought a device called "DrumDial" that practically I never used. Have you ever experienced it?
Marco

pcoopy - Posted - 12/19/2011:  11:58:23

Polle,

Thank you for your kind reply. My Silver Bell #1 is set up as follows:

.025 at the first fret, .125 at the 22nd fret, with .020 relief at the 7th fret.

D'Addario strings, 11s, 14s, 22W(Nkl), 28W(Nkl)

1/2 inch Richeleu bridge with bone inserts.

The action feels really good to me...no discernable buzz anywhere on the neck.

I have the Elite Amber head fairly tight by my standards but that may not be enough and I don't know how to judge what you describe as "extremely tight". The bridge doesn't seem to be sinking into the head. At present I'm about as tight as I used to make my tenors and 5 strings with Remo heads. Should I be tighter? I wish I had a way to measure.

Phil

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 12/19/2011:  12:12:15

Phil & Others,

I´ll have to take a break - once again a very limited number of BHO members (ONE for now) are attacking me, the nature of my blunt statements and especially my expertise - it´s so depressing for me. (banjohangout.org/topic/221042/2)

If possible - I´ll write you off-line within the next few days instead.

Kind regards

Polle

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 12/19/2011 12:12:52

Dogface - Posted - 12/19/2011:  12:36:11

Just hope your health is doin' OK, Polle. I know that can be a stress on you...

rudykizuty - Posted - 12/21/2011:  03:56:43

Phil,



I highly recommend the Jim Farquhar bridges with Taqua Nut inserts for Silver Bell banjos. They are all the rage with everyone I know playing a Silver Bell these days, myself included.



Also, I have a '27 SB and I assume we have the same tone ring (style II with interior vent holes) and I have found with this particular banjo, D'Addario strings with a lighter gauge sound a bit better. I have mine strung with gauges 10-12-18w-26w. The wound strings are steel.



FWIW, I also have a Richelieu amber head installed. But I don't know how this compares to the Elite.



Tuners...does your banjo have planets or Grover pancake tuners installed? There are modern replacements for both that work very well.



= Anthony =

Edited by - rudykizuty on 12/21/2011 03:57:51

Dogface - Posted - 12/21/2011:  07:15:45

Anthony,
I always thought you were a plectrum player ? BTW, I totally agree on the Farquar bridge. I'm told he makes them by hand.

rudykizuty - Posted - 12/21/2011:  08:16:11

Mark, that is correct. I play plectrum. So does Phil, I believe.

Dogface - Posted - 12/21/2011:  08:23:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by rudykizuty



Mark, that is correct. I play plectrum. So does Phil, I believe.

---

Guess I'm not up to speed on string gauges  for plec then.  Those look like tenor guages you listed above.  

rudykizuty - Posted - 12/21/2011:  08:47:43

Most tenor sets I've seen have heavier wound strings than these.

Dogface - Posted - 12/21/2011:  22:28:44

Yeah, I guess a little heavier but I've know guys who play that light... I didn't realize they were that close.

pcoopy - Posted - 12/22/2011:  13:09:47

Anthony thanks for the advice, I am going to try your string gage and bridge combination just to see how it sounds. By the way, mine is a 27 SB but does not have the holes in the tone ring.

Phil

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 12/22/2011:  19:20:46

Guys,

I´m back - thanks for your many kind PM´s (private mails) telling me what to do regarding "intruders". LOL!

Phil,

Your set-up as described seems basically well suited - only a somewhat higher action will most likely give you a more rich sound. A low action does not necessarily give you buzzes, but the strings will slightly touch many of the frets at the same time - this kills the overtones. Most pros and masters do keep a fairly (sometimes extremely) high action - ensuring a very rich sound all over the fretboard.

Two topics maybe of interest come to mind:

Head tension

I have measured the tension at some of my top-adjusted / -performing banjos - using a Drum Dial I measure 91-92 for Ludwig (aka 5-Star / First Quality) smooth white and REMO Weather King bottom coated heads - but 94-95 for REMO Renaissance (aka ELITE Amber) heads.

However using the tap tuning method I get results very close - for the first mentioned heads a resonance between a Gb and an A - for the second a resonance close to but under an A. Both indicate indeed very tight heads.

I take, that you don´t have a Drum Dial apparatus at hand - but do you know how to tap tune?  I do somehow guess, that you´ll be surprised about the tightness needed for an optimal result - especially for the Amber / Renaissance head.

Bridge height etc.

Your banjo is built for a ½" bridge - vintage standard - plus the banjos back then were mostly picked close to the bridge.  This has changed - besides the broad use of Mylar heads instead of vintage skin heads -  todays standard bridge height has become 5/8" - making a steeper string angle over the bridge possible - and most players have found a new sweet spot for the picking 1-2" from the neck / pot joint.  However most vintage and also modern banjos have the fretboard almost at level with the head near the neck / pot joint - a mission impossible for advanced plat picking - as you can´t "grab" the strings near the neck without slapping the strings and / or smacking the head.

I rebuild ALL vintage and newer 4-string banjos passing my House of Banjos - including a raise of the neck by min. 1/8" and an acceptance of a min. 5/8" tall bridge. These revised features ensure pro-playability plus an optimal sound / power performance.  The old masters knew about this and had their banjos custom built / re-built this way - so f.ex. Buddy Wachter has told me.

Such a rebuild and following set-up is however not for first-timers - if you trust your "tinkering" skills, I´ll gladly give you some advices (including pics).

Kind regards

Polle

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 12/22/2011 19:22:04

Bjorn Koch - Posted - 12/23/2011:  08:57:28

Polle,

Do you rebuild? Raise the neck yourself or do you have somebody doing it for you? Please send me any information on this subject. I am in Nevada, USA. My e-mail is bjornkoch@charter.net  I hope being Swedish will not stop you from assisting me. I have a few Bacon & Days and two that I especially love to play. Started playing the tenor over in Sweden in the early 60's. I have a great Luthier close by by the name Renee Kerns. I enjoy your input and knowledge very much. Did not know there was so much banjo knowledge way up north. God Jul och ett riktigt gott Banjo year from a cold & frosty Nevada.

pcoopy - Posted - 12/23/2011:  18:26:34

Thanks Polle,

I'm going to get a DrumDial.

Phil

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 12/23/2011:  18:52:06

Bjorn,

Yes - I rebuild and set up all banjos myself.  For major restorings of wood and Pyralin parts plus inlays, carbon fiber reinforcing etc. I use a well known German master luthier - the rest I do myself.

And yes - Renee Karnes is a fantastic and leading master luthier and artist - I´ve had/met some of her fantastic works - however also she is not completely aware of the demands, that modern advanced flat-picking puts up for the playability.

I´ll this winter put up some worksheets á la Vinnie Mondello - including pics - for my rebuild of various vintage banjos - I will not post them here at BHO, as most likely some ignorants will blend in and disturbe the topic. LOL!

Phil,

There´s a cheap Drum Dial for sale at Classifieds.

Polle

pcoopy - Posted - 12/24/2011:  16:10:04

Polle,

I already bid on Ebay for a Drum Dial. Adjusting the neck height for a taller bridge is something maybe I can do in the future, but for now I'll work with what I have.

Anthony,

I have just put on a Jim Farquhar bridge along with the string gages that you are using. I like it very much, the tone is what I was looking for.


Thanks to both of you for the help,

MERRY CHRISTMAS

Phil

Tinfoot - Posted - 12/24/2011:  16:47:17

Ya, after I discovered that my initial bridge on my plectrum was unusually wide, I put a Farquhar bridge on as well - and boy, talk about a huge difference! :)

Looking at a set of tenor strings that I bought on sale for a buck fifty, I now notice they are 10 / 15 / 24w / 30 ... eep, are these going to be ridiculously heavy? Haven't put them on yet - should I even bother? :p

Dogface - Posted - 12/24/2011:  16:53:02

Those are really heavy except for the first string....10 is fine. The others are pretty heavy but you may like them ? Who knows...try them.

rudykizuty - Posted - 12/24/2011:  17:43:42

You're welcome, Phil. Merry Christmas!

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 12/25/2011:  16:12:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tinfoot

Looking at a set of tenor strings that I bought on sale for a buck fifty, I now notice they are 10 / 15 / 24w / 30 ... eep, are these going to be ridiculously heavy? Haven't put them on yet - should I even bother? :p

---

Yes - they will most likely be partly somewhat heavy for a CGBD plectrum - for this type I do normally put together sets of 011-014-022W-028W.  But do try different gauges and find out the most suited for your banjo and playing style  - ordinary strings are very cheap.

FYI - Buddy Wachter uses the gauges 012-014-020W-030W - a somewhat "strange" set - but who cares - he´s the master of the masters.  LOL!

Polle

Tinfoot - Posted - 12/26/2011:  16:14:12

Wondering: since it seems a little weighty for a banjo, would this set of Tenor Banjo Strings that I have *10 - 15 - 24w - 30* (they are ball end) be decent for a tenor guitar? I just picked up an early 60's archtop tenor guitar that will very likely need a string change...



I have actually searched around a bit for string gauges for tenor guitars and haven't found anything specific.

Edited by - Tinfoot on 12/26/2011 16:14:44

Tinfoot - Posted - 12/26/2011:  17:06:38

I think I answered my own question - just now finally stumbled across D'Addario's main site that has specific string gauges for steel tenor guitars. :p

jlmyers - Posted - 12/30/2011:  11:02:11

The Farquhar bridge is the nuts! Simply the best for 4-stringers. I was lucky enough to have the great Dale Small do a complete setup on my cherished SB #2 about 15 years ago, and a Farquhar bridge was part of the job...I wouldn't change a thing! Re: string gauges for plectrum, I concur with Buddy W's choice...a bit heavy for many, but about right for those of us who tend to play hard.