hektic - Posted - 12/13/2011:  16:03:29

Hey guys, looking for an opinion/advice on a Dobson style banjo.

I had the opportunity to play this banjo ( 12fret.com/content/2011/09/14/...signment/ ) last October and I fell completely in love. I had to be pretty much dragged out of the store! the only thing that stopped me from buying it was the 1800$ plus tax price tag :( .

It seems that the banjo is still available and I will be going back there around Christmas to visit family (500km away) I'm seriously considering buying it, even though I really can't afford it.

My question is, is it worth it, or am I just paying for the original Dobson name. Would I be equally satisfied sound wise with a Sagmoen (sagmoenbanjos.com/openback.htm) , or an Enoch Dobson . An Enoch Dobson new is 1650 plus shipping, so not too far off 1800$.

Im still pretty much a novice, I've only been playing for 2 years and my only banjo is a Goodtime Special which I'm completely satisfied with to bring to jams and open mics, Do  I really need to upgrade?

jbalch - Posted - 12/13/2011:  16:20:48

That is a nice looking banjo.  It has been "restored" by Luke Mercier.  From what I can see, It looks like Luke may have replaced the fingerboard with a new inlaid flush (step) fret board.  I'm not sure what else he might have done. Luke is a truly great luthier.  I'm sure it is very playable and sounds fantastic. 

But some folks would consider such a modified or "restored" banjo to be less collectable.   That is not a problem if you plan to keep and play it.  But keep in mind that it might limit the re-sale market if you ever want to move the banjo.

I've owned several different Dobson tone ring banjos. I like the design a lot!  At one time, I had an original H. C. Dobson, a JB Bonefaas, and A Wayne Sagmoen Dobson-ring banjo all at the same time.  Each was very different.  I will attach sound samples of the three I have owned.

These banjos are so very different it is hard to give advice online.  Personally, I preferred my Sagmoen banjo and sold the other two.  But you might feel differently.  The best advice is to play as many different instruments as possible and see which really speaks to you.  In the $1800 price range, I think you have several good options.  Best wishes!

 I'm linking this discussion to the H. C. Dobson banjos group: banjohangout.org/group/hcdobsonbanjos

Edited by - jbalch on 12/13/2011 16:22:54

UnNamed tune on Original H. C. Dobson

UnNamed tune on JB Bonefaas #21 Dobson-style banjo

UnNamed tune on Wayne Sagmoen banjo w/ Dobson-ring

bublnsqueak - Posted - 12/14/2011:  00:02:31

Really interseting comparison - thanks.

My vote is for the Sagmoen but that will change with mood / time of day etc.

People on this forum will always recommend going with your urge and aquiring more banjos. I find it hard to argue with them on this one.

Paul

jbalch - Posted - 12/14/2011:  05:44:40

All three were great banjos.  But the Sagmoen fits my needs best of all. I still have it and play it a good bit.  I carry that banjo as a travel instrument and keep it on a hanger in my office.  It is always handy and fun. It is lightweight , responsive and sounds very cool. At the price I paid Wayne to build it ... this banjo was a true bargain.

The Dobson was very cool too.  I found it on ebaY in 2003 (I think) for about $400.  It was missing a tailpiece (But I found an original replacement).  I did nothing else to that banjo in the way of repair or restoration.  I just strung it up and played it.  I used the Dobson to record a couple of tunes on my ~HOT~ Biscuit Jam cd. But eventually I was no longer using it and decided to sell.  It brought $900 in an ebaY auction in 2008.

I bought the Bonefaas from Elderly.com because I found a good deal on it.  At the time (in 2005), his new banjos cost over $4,000.  This one came up on the Elderly site for $2750 ... and I jumped on it.  It was a very interesting instrument.  It was never worth the cost to me.  I did use it on one recording session in Nashville and the producer LOVED the sound.  But like the Dobson...it always just sat in my closet.  In 2008, someone made an offer to buy it...and and I took the $$.

drjack - Posted - 12/14/2011:  07:22:20

Hello hektic
I think the banjo is over restored and over priced. You will probably never sell it for what you paid BUT if ya love it, buy it.
Jack

hektic - Posted - 12/14/2011:  13:18:09

Thanks for the comments guys!

I also figured that restoration should bring the price down, and I do realize it is over restored to be desired by someone in the Dobson market looking for utmost originality above all. Im not really dead set on the originality of the instrument, like I said I loved the playability and sound of the banjo, and I like the idea that it is an 100+ year old instrument, albeit not 100% original. I love that the tuning pegs are wood, and installed with beautiful workmanship.

Out of the three sound bites I prefer the Sagmoen. Jbalch, Is yours just one of his basic banjos with a Dobson ring, or did you add extra customizations?

I emailed the store and they said they would forward any reasonable offer to the owner (who is a BHO member, but I haven't managed to contact him here). What do you guys think would be a fair offer for this banjo?

hektic - Posted - 12/14/2011:  14:40:04

Here is another link with more info on the work done to it:

banjobuyer.com/banjo/23660

jbalch - Posted - 12/14/2011:  14:41:44

My Sagmoen is a 12" cherry wood model. I asked for a boat heel and some custom inlay. Otherwise it is standard. Wayne made it to my specs for a very affordable price. Mine is the first one Wayne sold with his Dobson ring.  On Adam Hurt's recommendation, I ordered a standard banjo (no Dobson ring).  But Wayne received the first examples of his Dobson ring while my banjo was in process.  Whe called and asked if I wanted to try the new ring ...and of course I did.  I currently have it set up with a calfskin head and Nylgut strings.  I tune it a little lower than standard because I like the sound.  There are a few more sound samples are below and  on Wayne's website. Most of these samples are with Nylgut strings and low tuned. 

As a player, personally I am not  obsessed with originality or collectability. Some of these old Dobson are simply not playable in original condition.  A good luthier can re-build such a banjo and give it new life.  I think that is a great thing.  But when you buy such an instrument, you are paying not only for the vintage banjo ... but also for the labor and parts added by the modern skilled luthier.  So the cost is sometimes understandibly higher. 

But i've done a lot of buying-selling and trading over the years.  I always consider the resale potenial and value before buying an instrument. A heavily renovated instrument with lots of added cost might be hard to sell of you need to do so. 

I'm not saying don't buy it ...  but if you do ...be prepared to keep it or possibly take a loss should you need to sell. 

best wishes!

Edited by - jbalch on 12/14/2011 14:45:20

Bonapart's Retreat - Sagmoen Banjo Sample

Lost Cherokee - Wayne Sagmoen #53 w/calfskin head

Allendale - on Wayne Sagmoen #53 w/ Dobson ring

Capshaw - on Wayne Sagmoen #53 w/ Dobson ring

jbalch - Posted - 12/14/2011:  15:28:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by hektic

Here is another link with more info on the work done to it:

banjobuyer.com/banjo/23660

---

Sounds like the work was well and thoughtfully done.  As I said before...I'm sure it was all necessary to make the old banjo playable. The price is probably reasonable considering the investment of time and materials.  I bet the results are pleasing.

But I stand by my comments on potential for re-sale.  The market for modified vintage instruments is limited. 

good luck!

pernicketylad - Posted - 12/14/2011:  16:44:50

You'd probably be buying out of love and not with the intention of upgrading in a few years.

It's a bit like buying a house. If you don't plan to sell it at any stage you only have to consider whether or not you can afford it......whether or not it is value for money depends on what value you place on it if you ask me.

You're lucky that you've had it in your hands.....if you really feel a connection with it then it is hard to let it pass by....you might not come across something you feel that connection with again too soon.

I agree with John on the repair thing. I'm currently having an old Buckbee repaired and I'm thinking that while I bought it for only $175 the price of the repairs added to that will not represent value for me in monetary terms. If I ever did try to move it on I'd make a substantial loss. I love the banjo though and I don't see myself ever selling it. I'd have to expect to take a loss if I ever did move it on though.

In that regard I understand the seller's price. He/She said the repairs cost in the order of $1000 and they don't want to make a loss. He/She probably has to fork over a commission too. 

I do think however that he/she shouldn't expect the buyer to take the full burden of the decision to repair the banjo beyond its monetary value.

jbalch - Posted - 12/14/2011:  17:02:47

I agree .... I've got instruments that are not worth what I paid (if I had to sell now).  The thing is ... they are not for sale. I plan to play them until I'm done and let my kids find out what they are worth in my estate.

I don't mean to discourage buying a truly special instrument solely on the basis of potential re-sale value.  I always think about it ...  but I'm not always restrained by it.

Edited by - jbalch on 12/14/2011 17:03:35

hektic - Posted - 12/15/2011:  10:54:09

As I'm considering this purchase, a few questions on strings and tunings have arose.

Would I be able to play in Open G with these strings, or switch from double C to G with Nylgut at a jam per say, or would that mess up their strechyness and longevity.

Also can I tune the 5th string from G to A easily as I'd like to capo up and play in double D without having a 5th string spike or slider like I have on my present banjo.

drjack - Posted - 12/15/2011:  11:51:33

You can change tunings with NylGut strings and raise the 5th string G to A. Does the banjo provide sufficient volume in a jam with non steel strings? I find I need steel strings in a jam setting as well as geared tuners to change tunings quickly.

J

pernicketylad - Posted - 12/15/2011:  12:47:22

Nyguts can cut through no problem I think.....depends on the banjo.

You wouldn't be changing tuning that regularly in a session as the fiddles usually stay in one key for quite a while.

hektic - Posted - 12/15/2011:  12:59:40

I will probably still use my Goodtime Special for Jams as most of the jams around here are more Country/Bluegrass orientated, they do tend to switch keys pretty frequently. I'm completely satisfied with the loudness of the Goodtime with a steel tone ring in that setting.

I've been getting into more old time music as I progress and love the sound  of that old fret less banjo (especially with the doughnut style ring). I will probably only take this one out if it is a more old time type jam, or if I find people that we can eventually start a regular string band thing. And obviously to please my ears when I am playing at home, or out in open mics solo.

The Goodtime will probably remain my primary gigging banjo.

Thanks again for all the advice everyone!

Ron Ortegel - Posted - 12/15/2011:  14:50:15

These banjos do come up for sale from time to time.

You might consider being patient.

Tough decision.

Paul R - Posted - 12/15/2011:  20:37:42

The banjo was purchased by a BHO member and there was a thread on it here - can't find it now. The restoration was due to the deterioration of the fretboard (a not uncommon occurrence with old dyed wood fretboards), thus the new fretboard by Luke Mercier. While not in "original" condition, the restoration work is top notch, as you have seen. I saw it on the wall in the "banjo room" at The Twelfth Fret a few months ago and recognized it from the BHO thread. As to price, it's your call. The restoration is definitely a factor, as a luthier's work doesn't come cheap. It could be the price that has kept it on the wall so long. You might wish to inquire if you could get a slightly better deal from them. You certainly won't if you don't ask.

bublnsqueak - Posted - 12/16/2011:  00:54:17

Is it possible to buy one of these tonerings?

I've seen a video somewhere of Johanes Bonefaas building a banjo and he had a shelf full (I guess that answers my question). I'm wondering whether one would drop straight onto a 1920's pot and be held in place by the head.

Old banjos in need of work come up quite often in the UK.

Paul

maxmax - Posted - 12/16/2011:  03:55:43

That's a gorgeous looking instrument! Bet it sounds great too!

I'd also echo that it might not be the most convenient jam banjo. Since it's fretless, capos are not any good and if you need to tune up and down between A/D and G/C a lot, the strings will get tired of it and the tuning pegs will bother you since they are not as fast and sometimes slip a bit. You could probably however, put light gauge steel strings on there without stressing the neck and some Pegheds tuners (look the same, but are geared) and that would make your banjo much more jam friendly. It will change the sound, but you may like that sound too.

One of my banjo's is set up similar to this - nylgut strings and wooden pegs and it works beautifully at home and never bothers me the least. But I wouldn't use it as my primary jam banjo though.

Best,

Max

David McLaughlin - Posted - 12/24/2011:  21:14:25

All the above mentioned banjos are great. Keep in mind that the one you get may not sound like jbalch's banjos. (In his hands the different banjos all sound amazing, don't they!) But no two H C Dobsons are exactly alike. Some are good. Some are real good. Some are outstanding. Some are mind-blowing. If the restored and altered Dobson gives YOU goosebumps, consider taking it home. The work done to it was done by a highly respected craftsman. I have played a good number of Enoch Dobsons. They all seem to be consistently excellent. It may be that way for the other modern builders as well.

hektic - Posted - 12/26/2011:  08:57:01

Well, I am meeting the seller tomorrow to play it again and see if I get the same feeling I got when I first played it in store a few months ago. Who knows maybe I will be the owner of a brand new (old) restored (or modified) Dobson banjo!

hektic - Posted - 01/06/2012:  12:21:02

Just posting an update, I met up with the seller over the holidays and played the banjo. For some reason I just didn't get the same special feeling I got when I first played it, Its a great banjo, but I think I got some of the last minute fretless jitters and didn't end up buying it.

I was still craving a banjo though, so I made the trip up to Bill Rickard's (whom i'd only heard about a few weeks ago) shop a couple days later. Boy let me tell you I was in banjo heaven! Bill is a really great guy, and an excellent craftsman, I immediately fell in love with his work and his passion for the trade. His partner spent alot of time showing me different banjos and talking to me about them as I played. And Bill later on took my Dad and I on a tour through his workshop and explained to us the many different techniques he uses and the processes he goes through in order to build some very fine quality banjos.

It was truly a great all round experience that my Dad and I will cherish for years to come.

And now for the best part, I settled on a Rickard Spunover 12" dobson with an antiqued finish, antiqued hardware, and a 3 part curly maple neck. Bill also really took the time to test different bridges with me (which he fabricates, and are of equal fantastic quality) until we got one that I really liked.

It is currently set up with a fiberskyn head and steel strings with a silverwound 4th, and it sounds and plays  like a dream!  I'll try to get some pics and maybe some sound files up soon. Eventually I'd like to try a skin head with nylgut.

I think Bill is a pioneer in our banjo world and i'm surprised his name does not get mentioned very often when it comes to full finished banjos. He is mostly recognized for his hardware, parts and kits.

I also love the fact that its Canadian made!