bFunk - Posted - 12/09/2011:  00:42:23

Short story: I tune up to double D and open A. 1st string kept on breaking at tailpiece. I put a bunch of small pieces of duct tape where the string touched metal edges and the problem is solved.

Long story: I switched to nylgut about 6 months ago and really love it. The strings are easier on my nails and the reduced string tension really feels better for my right hand.

One big problem: I don't like to use a capo, so I tune up to double D and open A. Because of this I bought a low tension set of strings, but the 1st string kept on breaking. I ended up using a .24 nylon guitar string (.27 was just too high tension and the local music store doesn't have .26 or .25).

.24 ends up breaking after many months of use, so I give the nylgut another go. But since my initial problem with the nylgut 1st string, prior to putting on the .24 nylon I had put a bunch of small pieces of duct tape where the string would meet the metal to cushion it. The .24 lasted many months, and the nylgut has lasted over a week so far.

-Bryce

Duct Tape on Tailpiece

dculgan - Posted - 12/09/2011:  04:52:53

Funky! :)

mojo_monk - Posted - 12/09/2011:  04:54:50

Gotta do what you gotta do. I once worked maintenance at a high school and the supervisor literally swore by duct tape. His motto: "If you can't duck it, f*** it."

-Sean

Strumelia - Posted - 12/09/2011:  08:45:16

bFunk,  If that's a Deering Goodtime banjo you have there, then your VSL/scale length is only 26 1/4"- there is no good reason for your nygut strings to be breaking at D and A tuning unless there is something wrong, or something cutting into them.  It does not take much at all to cut into a nlylon string at high tension and break it.  However, if there are no sharp edges and all else is ideal, it's amazing how much a nylgut can be re-tuned without breaking.

First- are you sure you have the Nylgut "Classical" set and not the "Minstrel" set?  The minstrel set is heavier gauge and intended for much lower tunings on minstrel banjos, so you would not want that- the strings would break up at A and D. Make sure you have the "Classical" nylgut set for typical clawhammer/oldtime playing.

Second- that tailpiece you have puts more kinks in nylon/nylgut strings and pushes them down to a higher tension- definitely putting your strings at more risk for breaking.  If you plan to keep that banjo with nylgut then you might want to consider a no-knot tailpiece instead.  The fewer kinks and bends in your nylon/nylgut strings, the less they will break.

Third- make sure all your nut and bridge slots are SMOOTH for nylon strings.  Loosen one string at a time and lift out of its slots and over to the side, out of the way for a minute. Then take some waxed dental floss, fold it so it's 3 strands together (not twisted though) and run it back and forth a bit in each slot to gentle buff any sharp edges.  Then shave a little graphite pencil lead into each slot before laying the strings back in.

Bufo Bill - Posted - 12/09/2011:  11:40:08

That's great advice, I'm going to bookmark this thread.
speaking of duct tape:-
The Roadie's motto: If it doesn't move and it should, use WD40. If it moves and it shouldn't, use duck tape.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 12/09/2011:  12:05:58

I would Switch to a Rickard Tailpiece and not have to worry about Duct tape, which leaves a sticky residue. The Rickard is Not a No Knot - No Knots are infamous for cutting Nylguts. Bill Rickard can be contacted here where he is Will1717.

I use Chris Sands Heavies For a banjo I tune 3 frets low. For standard pitch I have use Sands Mediums but I never tried to take them up to A -- although the 5th string does it jesfine. I capo the rest. Sands are available at Elderly. They last much longer than Nylguts and I have not had breakage problems with them either.

vandergus - Posted - 12/09/2011:  13:13:05

The other day I was trying to retune my nylguts (Aquila Classical) to double C and the second string snapped. It happened right over the fret board, so no sharp edges. I concluded that nylguts don't like to be retuned but I guess my sample size of one was misleading. Was this just a fluke?

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 12/09/2011:  13:20:11

I had similar problems. The world seems to be split into three groups: those who can use Nylguts and those who can't. Just like math. I've never had good luck with them.

charlied - Posted - 12/09/2011:  13:57:25

Great idea with the duct tape. What ever sounds good and is hassle free...otherwise it's outta-here...

I set-up my Harmony Res-o-tone with a goatskin head and Nylgut strings.  Sounds really good to me compared to the plastic head/steel string set-up.  It actually hung on the wall, un-played, for a year or two. Not anymore. I used stopper knots and easy-cheesy half-hitch loops to attach to the tailpiece .  It all seemed straight-forward, easy project...

In fact, I forgot that I had to switch the strings around after breaking the first string twice.  My strings were breaking on the edges of the frets due to the Nut being off center, allowing the first string occasionally slip off the fretboard. Sharpish fret edges were abrading the Nylgut.  It is a very narrow neck and the frets appear to be brass. I moved the nut to its proper place, Everything okay.

That meant I only had three strings of the set left.  I dropped 2nd down to 1st, 3rd down to 2nd, and 4th down to 3rd string. .  I had a used set of Nylgut Minstrel, low tension strings and I took the smallest diameter string, #1, and used it for my 4th string.  I took an old steel string, (.10 diameter) and that became my 5th string.  Nylgut and Steel.  It all works great.  No problems since February and I play the Harmony nearly every day.  

I believe I managed to increase the string tension by doing this string swap.  The 4th string is noticeably greater in diameter and I think it just does manage to blend in with the other strings. Any greater difference in diameter and it all  might not have worked as well. It gives a nice low bass sound that perhaps was not as prominent before with the regular Classical set.

It seems to me it is not always possible to mix sets of strings.  Sometimes it doesn't work out.  

charlie

charlied - Posted - 12/09/2011:  14:02:12

I use to tune up and re-tune, but I felt it contributed to the wear on my Nylgut strings, so I stopped that practice.  No more problems.  Now I have to buy a capo...one day when I have some spare cash.

bFunk - Posted - 12/09/2011:  17:19:29

Hey charlied, I also do the nylguts for strings 1-4 and 5th string steel thing! I really did not like the low tension and large diameter of the nylgut 5th string. I like it when I follow a 5th string note with a drop thumb, allowing the 5th string to sustain over the other notes. With the nylgut I was muting the 5th string too much because of the bigger diameter.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I'm happy right now with my setup and I'd like to be able to switch back to steel strings, so I'm going to keep my current tailpiece.

-Bryce

Strumelia - Posted - 12/09/2011:  17:26:40

Oldwoodchuck-  I should mention that I never lay the nylgut string into the sharp slots of a no-knot tailpiece.  Those sharp slots would indeed be vicious string-eaters!

This photo just gives me the chills: hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...72010.jpg

Instead, I make a knot around each no-knot post, like this: 3.bp.blogspot.com/-z-XSbNpyiZE...ess17.jpg

I never have any trouble that way.

Not sure why some people have so many problems. I suspect they usually have sharp edges somewhere and haven't 'buffed their slots'...hmm that sounds funny, lol.  I never use a capo and i tune up and down between low F, up to G, C, A, and double D all the time on 26.5" scale and I'm just not breaking my Nylguts very often.  I do try not to abruptly go back and forth between say G and D too quickly.  I try to stop somewhere in between, in A, and play for a tune or two, out of courtesy to the banjo...lol!

I used to use real gut, nylon fishing line, and classical nylon high tension guitar strings for years....always breaking strings with some regularity.  When I switched to nylgut I was amazed at how well they last.  The Achilles heel of Nylgut I think is the darned wound bass string- the metal winding is subject to getting dented by the frets. Re-tuning between keys actually helps this problem though- you can actually see the string moving when re-tuning, so it gets pressed to the frets in slightly different places depending on the tuning. This prevents the dents from concentrating in the exact same place on the string, so the damage gets distributed and takes longer to reaches a critical point.

All this being said, I am certain that any set of strings, whether steel or nylon, will last longer if you use a capo instead of re-tuning.  I just happen to like the process of re-tuning and I don't care for the sound or feel of capos.

Edited by - Strumelia on 12/09/2011 17:29:09

banjo_brad - Posted - 12/09/2011:  17:36:59

Strumelia - That first photo looks like the slots have been carefully rounded off and smoothed out. I don't think there would be a problem with Nylguts on that banjo.



I have had a set of the Classical nylguts on my mountain fretless for over a year now, with no apparent problems. There is one area on the 1st string that is rough (where I finger in the area of frets 1 to 3), but I think that is due to my index fingernail. I don't seem to be able to cut it short enough for it not to contact the strings/fingerboard. I have the same problem with my guitars - I tend to dig a hole in the fretboard just behind the 1st fret on them.

(I'm sure that if I play the dulcimer enough that I'll wind up doing the same thing)

Edited by - banjo_brad on 12/09/2011 17:37:49

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 12/10/2011:  12:23:33

I too avoid the slots in No-Knot tailpieces - smoothing them out is a job for the very ambitious. If they woudl make the things out of brass it might be worthwhile, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to de-burr steel.

I too use a stopper knot (Square knot tied into the end of the string) and a half hitch - essentially it creates a ball end string. My nylgut problems were mostly from breakage at the other end - even after chamfering the holes through the tuning pegs. Never ever use Nylguts with a Waverly 5th String Peg, and personally I was not pleased with their ability to break anywhere at any time.

japus - Posted - 12/12/2011:  19:58:50

When I first added nylguts I tried to tune up to DD..that meant the first string went from a D to an E..after breaking one string I decided it was to much tension.

I use a capo for DD only and all works well for me.

hoverflytheo - Posted - 12/13/2011:  02:33:41

On my old spun-rim banjo with a ~25 inch scale length I've had no problems tuning up to A, D and A modal (and Old G.) I'm using the standard tension set of nylgut classical.

I've been using the strings for about 6 months, and had none break so far. The banjo seems fine for NG with, no sharp edges.

I don't think the banjo was originally designed for nylon/gut, though, since the holes in the nut were very small to begin with (the only modification necessary.)

ELWOOD - Posted - 12/27/2011:  09:37:56

I first learned of Nxxxxx strings from Strokestyle, when I first desired a more old time sound. My Buckbee took to the classial banjo set very well. One string broke at first ( 2nd or blue dot) due to impatience on my part. Now I slowly tune up. In 24-48 hours they set in for a good years run. There is nothing scholarly about Polymer strings, but they do sound wonderful.