WildJimbo - Posted - 08/02/2011:  19:58:17

Now we've all heard the story that Earl used a different banjo on Ground Speed on the Foggy Mountain Banjo album.

Granted, if you just listen to the recording there's something certainly different with that cut.  It's the only cut on the album that's in G#.  Everything else is tuned standard.  

A little research will show that Ground Speed was recorded January 23, 1959.  All of the other cuts were recorded on August 11, 1960 or September 9, 1960.  

What else did Earl record on on January 23, 1959?

A little digging turns up the following tunes were recorded the same day:

• 
  Crying my heart out over you 


• 
  Who knows right from wrong


• 
  Iron curtain 

So, did Earl use the mystery banjo on those cuts too?

RBIII - Posted - 08/02/2011:  20:23:25

I think the banjo that cut Ground Speed on the Fogggy Mt. Banjo album was 30s Gibson RB-4.

WildJimbo - Posted - 08/02/2011:  20:25:24

quote:

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Originally posted by RBIII

I think the banjo that cut Ground Speed on the Fogggy Mt. Banjo album was 30s Gibson RB-4.

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That's possible.  The question is, what other cuts were recorded with it? 

RBIII - Posted - 08/02/2011:  20:35:32

not for sure what other cuts were recorded with the prewar RB-4. i think that it was just loaned to earl for the Foggy Mt. banjo album while his granada was being repaired. cant remember the story on that right at the moment.

Goldstarman - Posted - 08/02/2011:  20:41:16

Doesnt Paul Hopkins own that banjo?

RBIII - Posted - 08/02/2011:  20:48:30

yeah he does

stringbreaker - Posted - 08/02/2011:  20:52:06

it was the vega

RBIII - Posted - 08/02/2011:  20:54:51

didnt mean to repeat myself there. i have a reprinted picture of earl playing that style 4 with lester at live show i was glad to get a copy i plan on keeping it a long time.

WildJimbo - Posted - 08/02/2011:  21:31:24

quote:

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Originally posted by RBIII

not for sure what other cuts were recorded with the prewar RB-4. i think that it was just loaned to earl for the Foggy Mt. banjo album while his granada was being repaired. cant remember the story on that right at the moment.

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I don't think that's the case.  Ground Speed was recorded in January of 1959, the rest of the cuts were over a year later.  Ground Speed was obviously added from an older session to finish out the LP.

Refer to my original post for actual dates, but there were (as I've indicated) other songs that were recorded on the very same day as Ground Speed...

When one looks at the dates, it doesn't jive so much with the legend of the RB-4 on a particular cut, unless it can be verified that other tunes were recorded with it as well. 

WildJimbo - Posted - 08/02/2011:  21:33:04

quote:

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Originally posted by stringbreaker

it was the vega

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My question has nothing to do with what the banjo was.  Frankly, I don't care if it was a cookie tin banjo.  I'm just trying to instigate some conversation regarding other cuts that may have been recorded with it.

danielburdett - Posted - 08/02/2011:  21:40:46

What happened to the other songs that were recorded on the day of Ground Speed?  Are they available on any other recordings?  And if you don't mind me asking, where'd you get your info from Jimbo?  Side note, that clip you posted of the RK-35 kind of blew my mind.  That's what my next free $700 is going towards, for sure!

WildJimbo - Posted - 08/02/2011:  22:10:59

quote:

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Originally posted by danielburdett

What happened to the other songs that were recorded on the day of Ground Speed?  Are they available on any other recordings?  And if you don't mind me asking, where'd you get your info from Jimbo?  Side note, that clip you posted of the RK-35 kind of blew my mind.  That's what my next free $700 is going towards, for sure!

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Pulling the date information from here: ibiblio.org/hillwilliam/BGdisc...bumid=159

Crying My Heart Out Over You was on Songs to Cherish (Harmony HL 7465)

You can find Who Knows Right From Wrong on the Columbia Historic Edition (Columbia 37469)

Iron Curtain on Breaking Out (Columbia 30347)

You should be able to find all of those on the Bear Family set too.

Oh, thanks for the compliment on the RK-35.  It's a sweet banjo for sure.

stringbreaker - Posted - 08/02/2011:  22:16:06

quote:

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Originally posted by WildJimbo

quote:

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Originally posted by stringbreaker

it was the vega

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My question has nothing to do with what the banjo was.  Frankly, I don't care if it was a cookie tin banjo.  I'm just trying to instigate some conversation regarding other cuts that may have been recorded with it.

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then why you calling rb4 myth? you addressing the banjo

WildJimbo - Posted - 08/02/2011:  22:41:43

quote:

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Originally posted by stringbreaker

then why you calling rb4 myth? you addressing the banjo

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Where'd I say it was a myth???  I did reference the legend/story/tale/hearsay regarding the RB-4.  But it is a quite well known story.  My comments, in no way, detract from it.  

However, if Earl had said banjo, in the studio that day, because of whatever reason (some say his Granada was out of commission) wouldn't it be likely there are other cuts with that banjo?

Oh, I'm not addressing a banjo, I'm addressing members of the HO.  

WildJimbo - Posted - 08/02/2011:  22:44:07

If anyone cares to read more about the banjo that is said to have been used on Ground Speed you can read up on it here: nashvilleplatingservice.com/Lo...etter.htm

RBIII - Posted - 08/02/2011:  22:51:17

Thanks i was looking for that link when you find out what the mystery banjo was that cut ground speed and the other cuts you mentioned in 59 let me know im curious as well thanks

WildJimbo - Posted - 08/02/2011:  22:53:43

quote:

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Originally posted by RBIII

Thanks i was looking for that link when you find out what the mystery banjo was that cut ground speed and the other cuts you mentioned in 59 let me know im curious as well thanks

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Well, it's like this.  I have no reason to doubt what Mike Longworth said about the RB-4.  So if it's the RB-4 it's the RB-4.  

But...

Can/Should we assume that everything else recorded that day could have been the RB-4?  

RBIII - Posted - 08/02/2011:  23:05:16

Thanks i was looking for that link when you find out what the mystery banjo was that cut ground speed and the other cuts you mentioned in 59 let me know im curious as well thanks

seanray - Posted - 08/03/2011:  05:21:24

quote:

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Originally posted by WildJimbo

If anyone cares to read more about the banjo that is said to have been used on Ground Speed you can read up on it here: nashvilleplatingservice.com/Lo...etter.htm

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Thanks for the link Jim that's a great site.

My guess would be that the other tunes would have been recorded on the same banjo in question. Seems logical to me but who knows.

Randall - Posted - 08/03/2011:  06:18:20

Paul Hopkins does own this banjo. I have played it on three separate occasions. It is a hoss!! It's the banjo the Mike Longworth and Paul used to get the neck dimensions for their Louzee line of banjos!!

He knows the story on this banjo. Earl has tried to buy it back from Mike Longworth over the years but mike wouldn't sell!!

Rumor was that Earl like the sound of the 4 better than his Granada! What if Earl had Played a 4 his whole carreer? Would the reissue 4's of Greg rich era be Earl Scruggs models and actually be chrome?!

stanger - Posted - 08/03/2011:  08:14:33

Hi, Jimbo...

this post stirred some old memories. I vaguely recall reading an interview with either Scruggs or Longworth about the RB4; it was either in Frets or Banjo Newsletter from around 1980. The article was mostly centered on the RB4.



It mentioned that Ground Speed and Home Sweet Home were both done with the RB4, and both those songs were recorded on an earlier date, which wasn't specified. I always thought it to be true- the recording quality is different on those cuts, and both have the snare drum helping keep rhythm.

Hi, Randall... your post pretty much matches my recollections of that article I read. Earl found the RB4 someplace while on the road, and really liked it, especially for recording. He never took it out on the road, except possibly as a spare, and Longworth, who was just a kid at the time, basically twisted his arm to buy it. Earl sold it reluctantly after about 6 months, and tried to buy it back later on.

regards,

stanger

Edited by - stanger on 08/03/2011 08:19:00

WildJimbo - Posted - 08/03/2011:  09:46:45

quote:

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Originally posted by stanger

Hi, Jimbo...

this post stirred some old memories. I vaguely recall reading an interview with either Scruggs or Longworth about the RB4; it was either in Frets or Banjo Newsletter from around 1980. The article was mostly centered on the RB4.



It mentioned that Ground Speed and Home Sweet Home were both done with the RB4, and both those songs were recorded on an earlier date, which wasn't specified. I always thought it to be true- the recording quality is different on those cuts, and both have the snare drum helping keep rhythm.

 

Hi, Randall... your post pretty much matches my recollections of that article I read. Earl found the RB4 someplace while on the road, and really liked it, especially for recording. He never took it out on the road, except possibly as a spare, and Longworth, who was just a kid at the time, basically twisted his arm to buy it. Earl sold it reluctantly after about 6 months, and tried to buy it back later on.

regards,

stanger

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Actually according to everything I have Home Sweet Home was recorded on 8/11/1960 with about half of the other tunes on Foggy Mountain Banjo.  The only "odd" cut on that recording is Ground Speed being recorded in January of 1959 - over a year and a half before the other tunes.  The other thing to note is, by August of 1960 Earl was most likely using a plastic head.  The head on the 1959 cut would have been skin.

I'm sure I have that Frets or BNL from the period, so I can attempt to track down the interview.

stanger - Posted - 08/04/2011:  09:20:38

I'm happy to take your word for it, Jimbo...
You have the session notes, and that's good enought for me!
As I said the recollection was pretty foggy. I had a full collection of Frets that was ruined in 2005 when my basement flooded, so if an article did exist, I sure couldn't find it now.

For sure, the difference in heads could make a big difference. It's possible that Earl may have switched to a plastic head during the sessions- a head change only takes about 30 minutes.
regards,
stanger

WildJimbo - Posted - 08/04/2011:  11:16:08

quote:

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Originally posted by stanger

I'm happy to take your word for it, Jimbo...

You have the session notes, and that's good enought for me!

As I said the recollection was pretty foggy. I had a full collection of Frets that was ruined in 2005 when my basement flooded, so if an article did exist, I sure couldn't find it now.



For sure, the difference in heads could make a big difference. It's possible that Earl may have switched to a plastic head during the sessions- a head change only takes about 30 minutes.

regards,

stanger

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So, in this lies the reason we will always have to speculate on what banjo was used...  A session from 20 months sooner (almost 2 years) could have a big difference in sound.  A different head type could make a big difference as well.  Tuning a half step sharp makes a different sound (tonally) as well.  For all I know it could have been the Granada in all of the cuts.  

Yep, it's obvious that Ground Speed sounds different than the other cuts on Foggy Mountain Banjo, and the accepted story explains that it was a different banjo.  But all of those differences above could have just as easily explained the difference in the sound we hear just as easily as a different banjo.

Still... has anyone bothered to compare the tone from those other cuts to see if they think it's the RB-4?  I'd think the "Crying My Heart Out Over You" is a significant enough song that it would have been remembered as one of the RB-4 cuts...

DannyB4 - Posted - 08/04/2011:  11:55:59

....if my memory serves me right, there was a story about Lester saying," he (Earl), got rid of his good banjer"..talking about the RB-4...hahahahaha...

Arthur Hatfield - Posted - 08/04/2011:  16:17:02

Jimbo a friend of mine and I in 2002 visited Paul Hopkins at his home and he showed us several banjo the RB4 included we both played it and several others. Paul Told us himself that Earl recorded Ground Speed with this banjo but made no mention of any other recordings. I would think if he had recorded any others with it that Paul would have mentioned it. I cant recall if he mentioned any dates or not.