xnavyguy - Posted - 04/16/2011:  06:14:18

One of my fellow banjo students and pickin' buddies ask me to install a JLS #12 tone ring in his Gold Tone OB250.  I understand the only difference between the OB250 and the OB250 Plus is the JLS tone ring.  Anyway, I agreed to install the ring in his banjo.  Due to dimensional differences between the JLS and the original ring, the skirt mount on the rim needed to be deepened to match the skirt length on the new ring.  Because the overall height and the height above the rim is different on the JLS, the lag screws in the neck have to be moved to keep from altering the string action.

I never know quite what to expect when I dismantle a banjo but I was a bit shocked at how this one was assembled when it left the factory.  Not only were the lag screws misaligned in the neck, the mounting holes were crooked and spaced differently than the lag screws.  Not only did I have to relocate the lag screws, I had to plug and re-drill the rim to get everything to fit properly.  I doubt what I found is typical of Gold Tone but this has been an interesting experience for me in my quest to learn as much as I can about how these infernal machines work.

Gold Tone OB250 Neck Heel

Ks_5-picker - Posted - 04/16/2011:  06:27:07

That's really quite pitiful,isn't it. 

Docmhc - Posted - 04/16/2011:  07:16:43

How on earth did that make it past QC inspection!?  In this case, it doesn't look they have any quality control.  Or, maybe they had the day off that day.

me!!! - Posted - 04/16/2011:  07:55:10

that's pretty bad

Pete13 - Posted - 04/16/2011:  08:11:08

That's what happens when people do stuff like this by eye with a hand drill and no decent jig setup, I can't imagine anybody calling themselves a  banjo builder not having the smarts to set up a jigged drill to make stuff like this impossible. That's just pitiful. The nasty looking cut of the neck heel and the 'finish', in the area of the flange cutout are pretty awful as well.

Edited by - Pete13 on 04/16/2011 08:24:56

tubaphone - Posted - 04/16/2011:  08:19:37

OK. First, you take a perfectly set up OB-250 and dismantled it. Then, you attempt to install a tone ring that's machined to different specs than the original ring and THEN you complain that you have to alter the shell to fit the new ring. THEN you blame Gold Tone. Interesting...

beegee - Posted - 04/16/2011:  08:50:53

I'm not allowed to comment.

Banjo40 - Posted - 04/16/2011:  09:03:40

quote:

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Originally posted by tubaphone

OK. First, you take a perfectly set up OB-250 and dismantled it. Then, you attempt to install a tone ring that's machined to different specs than the original ring and THEN you complain that you have to alter the shell to fit the new ring. THEN you blame Gold Tone. Interesting...

---

I think his point was that after disassembling the banjo to make the alterations needed to fit the tone ring he was shocked at the way the banjo was assembled at the factory, as am I.

Mike

derwood400 - Posted - 04/16/2011:  09:26:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjo40

quote:

---

Originally posted by tubaphone

OK. First, you take a perfectly set up OB-250 and dismantled it. Then, you attempt to install a tone ring that's machined to different specs than the original ring and THEN you complain that you have to alter the shell to fit the new ring. THEN you blame Gold Tone. Interesting...

---

I think his point was that after disassembling the banjo to make the alterations needed to fit the tone ring he was shocked at the way the banjo was assembled at the factory, as am I.

Mike

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Yeah, he wasn't complaining about the fact that he had to alter the shell at all.  Look at the picture.  Gold Tone should be blamed for letting something like that out of the factory.  I guess they just hoped no one would ever take it apart.  

The coordinator rods must have been not parallel too.

stelling man - Posted - 04/16/2011:  09:27:57

Sounds like a typical Gold Tone to me..

STELLING MAN

1four5 - Posted - 04/16/2011:  09:30:16

Judging by the way the resonator inserts were on my CC, and the wiring on my EBT, and the cone/cover plate (among other things) on my Dojo, that's pretty typical. But I'm really not down on Gold Tone, for the price, they were easy fixes for someone mechanical, and my CC and EBT is still going strong for other BHO members.

martyg - Posted - 04/16/2011:  10:19:39

quote:

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Originally posted by stelling man

Sounds like a typical Gold Tone to me..

 

STELLING MAN

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 What he said!

5strings3picks1banjo - Posted - 04/16/2011:  11:16:45

I had an OB 250+ which sounded really good but when I stripped it I found the same thing. I also found a delaminated rim and I never got the flame maple neck. I ordered mine through Wayne Rodgers so it wasnt an ebay 2nd.

xnavyguy - Posted - 04/16/2011:  11:24:58

I got the banjo all put back together this morning and everything fits nice and smooth, slicker than greased owl poop.  The only parts I had left over were the old head and tone ring.  Right off the bat the banjo sounds pretty good.  It's got a little too much bite right now but it should settle down when the head stretches a little.  I've been told that these JLS #12 rings don't tolerate as tight a setup as I'm use to doing so we'll see how things evolve.  Again, it's not my intention to throw rocks here or criticize Gold Tone.  I've managed to get over my surprise and will try to get on with my life now.  I'm headed out the door to go to a jam at Danny Ray's Music in Round Rock.

Repaired Gold Tone OB250 Neck Heel

Roll Player - Posted - 04/16/2011:  13:16:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by tubaphone

OK. First, you take a perfectly set up OB-250 and dismantled it. Then, you attempt to install a tone ring that's machined to different specs than the original ring and THEN you complain that you have to alter the shell to fit the new ring. THEN you blame Gold Tone. Interesting...

---

With all due respect, it wasn't perfectly set up, Marc. Jerry told me the neck was tilted because of the poor way the lags were drilled. I wouldn't call that a perfect setup. (I'm not the owner of the banjo -- just a good friend of Jerry's and we talked about this project on the phone.)

I don't know how much better this banjo will sound as a result of the tone ring change, but I suspect the improved fitting of parts will help the tone a lot.

I missed the part where he blamed Gold Tone for anything other than the poor assembly of this particular banjo.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/16/2011:  22:13:04

I currently own one Korean made Gold Tone and just recently sold another. I would say the poor neck to pot fit is something that has only happened since they moved to banjos from a Chinese factory.

From what I see, poor neck fit is endemic in banjos from the Crysanthymum Empire. But I don't see them by the thousands and have no commercial interest in theses things so my opinion should be ignored after hurling a couple personal insults at me.

The first thing I check when looking over a banjo is what happens when I TWIST the heel. Most recent Asian imports have far too much "play" for me. I suspect that somewhat better original machine work could make vastly better instruments - ones that actually would be the equal of the lackluster output of that flooded Tennessee company that is supposedly dead and buried anyway.

If that Asian banjo is just so much better'n the overpriced local stuff - then buy Asian and have it rebuilt by a trusted workman, but also think about how much better it could be, if they actually had done it right the first time.

I think the time for "kit" banjos is coming back and we have thousands of good workmen who could and do easily produce better. But everyone wants that big old brand name on the headstock.

Alan Hill - Posted - 04/16/2011:  22:47:15

I started playing on a Rover and then moved to a Goldtone bc350  but its not until you get an American made banjo that you appreciate the difference its unfortunate that most beginers start on inferior asian made banjos I am very lucky I have two made in the USA and one made in Australia by an American (best of both worlds) and as usual Mr Woodchuck is right kit banjos would be a good idea and those mountain banjos look like good fun too

desert rose - Posted - 04/16/2011:  23:12:15

Just to point out some obvious misconceptions.


WHATEVER you recieve in the way of a product, NO MATTER where its made. WHAT you recieve has absolutely nothing to do with the source as far as blame is concerned. For our discussion here ONE hundred percent of all Goldtone products start out in Asia, before it was korea now China. However one hundred percent go thru qc checks by AMERICANS in Florida. If something leaves Goldtone and is sent to a store or customer its THEIR fault and no one elses. Its their brand and they control all aspects.


This goes for Goldstar, RK, Epiphone etc. Whatever less than perfect things are in the market its because the AMERICAN owners of the brands think its ok for you to recieve them. This goes for any product made any where and sold anywhere.


By the way the "Crysanthymum Empire" happens to be Japan not Korea or China. . The current emperior of Japan Akihito is the 125th member ( or something like that ) of his family to sit on the Crysanthymum throne. The flower is the official sign of the family.

Edited by - desert rose on 04/16/2011 23:15:41

5strings3picks1banjo - Posted - 04/17/2011:  00:45:17

Good point

Bobw - Posted - 04/17/2011:  03:49:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by tubaphone

OK. First, you take a perfectly set up OB-250 and dismantled it. Then, you attempt to install a tone ring that's machined to different specs than the original ring and THEN you complain that you have to alter the shell to fit the new ring. THEN you blame Gold Tone. Interesting...

---

 Did you look at the photo???

xnavyguy - Posted - 04/17/2011:  04:45:17

Hindsight being what it is and looking back on this project, I thing the person(s) who assembled this banjo may have been trying to compensate for the offset error in the holes in the rim.  Those holes were offset the same direction as the lag screws though not as much as the screws.  The lag screw diameter was the same size as the interior diameter of the collars in the rim, leaving absolutely no wallow room.  There's no doubt in my mind, this would have been just fine if they had managed to exactly match the offset and spacing between the neck screws and the rim holes.  The fact that these mating elements were so far off required them to force the neck onto the rim, bending the lag bolts at an odd angle.  When I disassembled the banjo the coordinator rods were very bound up and the bottom one was cross threaded and only hanging on by a couple of threads.  Once I got everything straightened up and the threads cleaned up, I was able to attach the neck and screw the coordinator rods completely onto the bolts by hand, before final tightening.

Pete13 - Posted - 04/17/2011:  05:07:50

One thing's for sure. The people running this operation knew ZERO about jigs and fixturing as it applies to manufacturing, otherwise, there would have been no issues whatsoever with either the lag placement or the pot hole placement. That  isn't an assembly error, it's a machining error. Two different things entirely.

Helix - Posted - 04/17/2011:  06:22:20

Who is the most critical here?  Put them in this factory for a week and let us know.  Like Stelling Man and Bee Gee could go undercover boss and expose the whole game.  Don't forget to punch out.

Gold Tone has an on-shore shop and American jobs.  They are real people, I mean the team, not just the figurehead, I talk to them on the phone on a first-name basis.  I like them.

We don't have to like everything a person says or does, now do we?

So, no,this isn't typical.  Jigs and fixtures are in place and set-up on a level of accuracy and speed, determined by what level of quality is going to be built into each one.  Then the specs: + or -  to what degree.  That's where budget and value come in. 

If we toured each factory, we would see how a grafted neck is glued up, how assembly is determined, then the production 'rate.'  Then the error rate.   Dudes, it's a FACTORY.  All the factories use class A engineering, that means interchangeability of parts.  Imagine touring where Austins, or Nashvilles, or Hi-Quality, or 'tastes just like chicken' are made, make sure to check the polluted water dripping into the creek.  

I remember when someone left a piece of blue tape on the tone ring of a Recording King.  Correctable.  But some howling went on here on the hangout, how could this happen? Well, what's the overtime schedule?  Who went to sleep when that plane landed? 

Xnavyguy gets in there, he digs, he's curious, he's made contributions to ALL banjodom, and a couple of guitar counties, too.  The guy builds the best bridges, so I listen to what he says.

(   ))====================='===================== ::}

deuceswilde - Posted - 04/17/2011:  07:01:02

Just to add variety to the discussion, the only modern regulation banjo I own is a Korean made Saga SS-10 (S. S. Stewart inspired only by Saga's claim, not reality).

The lag screws are off set as well, but in mine the rim matches well and everything is tight and solid.  Perhaps this is set in the tooling for some reason?

Frisco Fred - Posted - 04/17/2011:  08:33:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by deuceswilde



Just to add variety to the discussion, the only modern regulation banjo I own is a Korean made Saga SS-10 (S. S. Stewart inspired only by Saga's claim, not reality).

 

The lag screws are off set as well, but in mine the rim matches well and everything is tight and solid.  Perhaps this is set in the tooling for some reason?

 

---

I wonder if the tooling or some part of it is the late Vega tooling?

Like Winchester's tooling going to Brazil and like the fate of a lot of other American tooling, did the Vega / Martin tooling leave their successor Galaxy for their Korean built instruments only to have it's remnants go on to China?

JohnJ - Posted - 04/17/2011:  15:58:14

I own one of the first Gold Tone's to be made in China.  It is a good, well made instrument and I am quite satisfied with it; it's not an OME but then you get what you pay for, most of the time.

It is my understanding that the Korean Gold Tone was manufactured in Korea but the assembly and set-up was done in Florida.  However, when the manufacturing was transferred to China the assembly was also done there.   (If you visit the Gold Tone site you'll quickly see that there is now no mention of assembly in Florida)  So that leaves the people in Florida with what?  Marketing only?

blindjesse - Posted - 04/17/2011:  16:53:38

The volume of B-Stock GTs that are sold on ebay make me wonder how many unsuspecting buyers buy them from a third party without knowing. Not saying that this is one, but it could be.

I do have a Korean GT banjo-uke that has the lag holes slightly off, but it's never bothered me.

BanjoJAF - Posted - 04/17/2011:  18:04:15

Just curious....

...did any of the parties directly involved with this Gold Tone banjo contact Gold Tone about the problem?   It might be a lot more interesting if a Gold Tone Rep was given an opportunity to read (and respond to) this thread.

Maybe the banjo owner (or the repair person) could send Gold Tone an email containing a link to this thread.

If I was selling and/or building banjos, I would sure appreciate such an courtesy -  BEFORE my product was slagged on a banjo forum.

I have no first-hand knowledge about Gold Tone products.  I'm just sayin'...

Cheers! JAF

Banjophobic - Posted - 04/17/2011:  21:02:42

Well, to be brutualy honest here, Ive seen mis-aligned lags on many Gibson banjos, as well as other known makers. Things happen, mistakes slip by for whatever reason. If you worked on hundreds of instruments a year, you wouldnt be 'shocked' or appalled by small things like a lag mistake. In the production of  thousands of banjos, there will be some small goof-ups. Ive worked on a great number of them and I can say from my experience, that no, it isnt 'typical' . But should we expect perfection from them all the time? Yes, its always unfortunate to see things slip by QC, but its not anything to be shocked by, really.

Goldtones are good banjos for the money, and good people to deal with. Thats my two cents

Edited by - Banjophobic on 04/17/2011 21:04:18

xnavyguy - Posted - 04/17/2011:  21:49:38

It was never my intention to dis anyone with this thread.  And, no, I didn't contact Gold Tone before I initiated this thread.  The owner of this banjo has always been happy with the sound and performance of this machine.  I've jammed with him many times and have always been pretty amazed at the sound of this banjo.  In fact, he had never noticed that the neck was not level with the rim.

It seems peculiar to me, a relative newbie when in comes to all things banjo, that someone with the knowledge, experience, reputation, and resources of Gold Tone, could let something like this get through their system.  I mean, the rest of this banjo was absolutely perfect in every way.  The good thing about all this is that it was easy for me to fix these minor problems with an, otherwise, fantastic musical instrument.

This is what the owner wrote to me this afternoon:

"Jerry,  Thank you very much for putting in the tone ring and getting that banjo in tip top shape.  It REALLY sounds great and even my wife has commented on the sound.  I can hardly put it down.  Thanks.....You are the best!! "

Those JLS #12 tone rings definitely deliver what they promise!

Pablo9364 - Posted - 04/18/2011:  00:46:52

Isn't this all about:

Supply and demand

and

Profit and Loss ???

If we were talking about an accoustic guitar for the same amount of money wouldn't we have a much greater reassurance that we would get a better quality product. As there are many more people who play guitars and many more firms competing with each other to make a better quality product?!  

Personally I am a not too happy with what I can get for my money in the banjo world.  My next banjo will either be hand made or a top maker that is when I eventually save up the money.